How to tell if your doing it WRONG.

[Simon of the Playa]

you are dooooooing it wrong if you disagree with bbadger.


because, you know.....he's ALWAYS right....

[kiboy]

Nah

[5280MeV]

1) Keep decommodification as a principle as is, and get rid of vendors (or at the very least limit them to deliveries and people quickly entering and leaving in special cases).

2) Drop or revise the decommodification principle, and let people hire bartenders.

3) Deal with people getting pissed off or at least mocking the obvious dishonesty of the whole enterprise.

You're doing it wrong if you're expecting principles to be iron laws, believe that principles lose legitimacy to the point of dishonesty because of a few pragmatic choices, or that those decisions are the cracks that necessitate forcing the floodgates open.

I think you are arguing wrong if your whole point doesn't make sense in light of the three sentences you just quoted. If I was arguing for principles as "iron laws", I wouldn't have said "or at the very least limit them to deliveries and people quickly entering and leaving in special cases".

I never argued against pragmatic choices like selling (i.e. commodifying) ice. I am for selling ice, and I have seen situations at regionals where theme camps were hindered in giving away food because the regional organization would neither sell or even pre-sell ice, nor allow for a in-out policy to get ice that was not cost prohibitive.

The question is about what are, generally speaking, the important things that make up the experience, and are those being bought and sold. Can you just rent a mutant vehicle to ride around? Can you simply rent out a theme camp that takes full care of you and provides you with your art project ready to go? If you can do all that, then what experience is it exactly that "decommodification" even applies to?

If renting out mutant vehicles and theme camps is an accepted practice, and even held as a potentially positive thing, in an event that is focused around mutant vehicles and theme camps, then the event is a social environment which is commodified.

Restrictions on the time of payment, advertising on the premises, or initiating transactions at the event do not prohibit commerce, they (might) just conceal the fact that commerce is taking place. You can have an event with a don't-look-commercial principle if you want---I think that is what is being advocated---and if that is the new direction then the text of the principe should reflect it. Otherwise you get made fun of.

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I not arguing commodification is a bad thing, I don't think that is the point, and I think it is good.

If joe really enjoys making toys and is good at it, unfortunately he can't feed or house himself with toys. He has to thatch the roof and till the fields, and if he has time leftover he can do what he loves. He cannot very easily just make and give away toys and rely on the generosity of his friends to randomly give him food or fix his roof.

With commodification, joe can simply make and sell toys all day in exchange for currency, which he can use to hire phil the roofer and buy eggs from henry the farmer.

========================================================================

We live in a commodified world. When I read the principles as written and stated, I expect an event where human relationships in general are not mediated by commercial transactions.

In an ideal utopia, joe could just provide for himself and still spend the bulk of his time making toys, meeting people, sharing his toys, and not feel commercial pressures. In socialist theory, the term "decommodification" means that the state provides the necessities so that joe can live in such a manner. Personally, I feel that this is unrealistic.

I do think it is realistic for temporary decommodification to occur with a minimalist "state" by having participants take care of all (or most) of their own needs on a primitive campout, and then they can spend the bulk of their time sharing what they love, forging interesting relationships, and enjoying life. The trick is that you just shut down the utopia after a week so it doesn't have time to consume all resources and fall apart.

If people want to do that, then I want to go to that event. If a few people are selling what they love, then maybe that is ok. If most people are buying and selling the things that they are most interested in, then there are better commercial festivals to enjoy.

We will see where things go I guess. Just don't pretend that it isn't commodified.

[kiboy]

Agree once again. And I have a strong bias for decommodification that goes back to my first burn. That one principle made much of the experience for me. When there is a lot of business being done there is often a lot of stress involved, and complaints and all the distractions we are trying for one week to replace with something relaxed and personal.

It will be interesting for me to score that ticket in 2015 and see how it feels after a 10 year absence. That will tell the tale for me. I still expect to love much of what I will find but I expect I'll notice any subtle winds of change and if that tale is a sad one something very special will have gone out of my world. And the chill I feel in the default world will be just that much colder. Long Live Burning Man.

[Fan C]

Agree once again. And I have a strong bias for decommodification that goes back to my first burn. That one principle made much of the experience for me. When there is a lot of business being done there is often a lot of stress involved, and complaints and all the distractions we are trying for one week to replace with something relaxed and personal.

It will be interesting for me to score that ticket in 2015 and see how it feels after a 10 year absence. That will tell the tale for me. I still expect to love much of what I will find but I expect I'll notice any subtle winds of change and if that tale is a sad one something very special will have gone out of my world. And the chill I feel in the default world will be just that much colder. Long Live Burning Man.

I'd be curious what you think too. The city has roughly doubled since then. Just in size and scale it'll be literally massively different.

[Lonesomebri]

And the chill I feel in the default world will be just that much colder. Long Live Burning Man.

You will just have to Burn all that brighter.

[kiboy]

Well with 10 more years to mature I think I'm more ready to burn bright than I was in 2000 even if things have not all changed for the better. I was a little blown away then. Now I know what I want to get out of my Burn and I'm not afraid to go get it. One thing I'd like is to meet you if fate allows. I've been impressed by your passion for what is good in the Man (imo) and your willingness to step up and defend that here. Folk such as yourself make the man Burn bright for guys like me.

[forty_eight]

Considering an art project for next year ... selling kind, vegan, gluten-free, macadamia nut and bacon cookies on the playa for $2 each.

What's the worst that could happen? lol

[kiboy]

I'm wondering what would happen exactly?

They sound good. Maybe you should send me a sample and I can tell you if they are Burn worthy.

[Lonesomebri]

Considering an art project for next year ... selling kind, vegan, gluten-free, macadamia nut and bacon cookies on the playa for $2 each.

What's the worst that could happen? lol

If it works, you can license playa franchises, no need to do the heavy lifting yourself.
As an aside, partner, is foreign currency out on the playa considered legal tender? Like, could I "gift" cookies for $2 Canadian, and not really be violating the rule of commodification, because right there and then on the playa, a Canadian dollar is not really legal tender for this land..... So, I'm figuring the Cookie/Foreign Exchange Camp is a sure thing for 2015.

[forty_eight]

Just some fanciful "gifts" from my kind rainbow Canadian brothers and sisters!

If it works, you can license playa franchises, no need to do the heavy lifting yourself.

lol

[Lonesomebri]

Is making sure your Theme Camp is first registered as a LLC considered doing it wrong, or doing it right?

*Rainbow Cookie Foreign Exchange Camp*
Limited investment opportunities available.

[BBadger]

1) Keep decommodification as a principle as is, and get rid of vendors (or at the very least limit them to deliveries and people quickly entering and leaving in special cases).

2) Drop or revise the decommodification principle, and let people hire bartenders.

3) Deal with people getting pissed off or at least mocking the obvious dishonesty of the whole enterprise.

You're doing it wrong if you're expecting principles to be iron laws, believe that principles lose legitimacy to the point of dishonesty because of a few pragmatic choices, or that those decisions are the cracks that necessitate forcing the floodgates open.

I think you are arguing wrong if your whole point doesn't make sense in light of the three sentences you just quoted. If I was arguing for principles as "iron laws", I wouldn't have said "or at the very least limit them to deliveries and people quickly entering and leaving in special cases".

Iron laws, as in a rule that necessitates an action in response to maintaining the principle/law, or else the principle/law is void or dishonest. For the three points above, no, I don't think they're the only implications for the decommodification principle. For 1), "decommodification" does not mean that one has to get rid of vendors or restrict them as above. If 1) is not honored, it does not imply 2): that we should suddenly allow the hiring of "bartenders" (though whether there is jurisdiction to actually enforce it is another matter). For 3), people may get pissed (they always do), but it doesn't necessarily imply that there is dishonesty in the whole enterprise; it may, instead, mean that there is no ability to enforce the principle, and also that pragmatic compromises are needed.

I never argued against pragmatic choices like selling (i.e. commodifying) ice. I am for selling ice, and I have seen situations at regionals where theme camps were hindered in giving away food because the regional organization would neither sell or even pre-sell ice, nor allow for a in-out policy to get ice that was not cost prohibitive.

I am for that as well. However, I don't believe that the sale of something like ice, or even transportation systems like Burner Express, suddenly voids the decommodification principle.

The question is about what are, generally speaking, the important things that make up the experience, and are those being bought and sold. Can you just rent a mutant vehicle to ride around? Can you simply rent out a theme camp that takes full care of you and provides you with your art project ready to go? If you can do all that, then what experience is it exactly that "decommodification" even applies to?

This is why it's a principle -- at the event. The event can't regulate transactions outside the event, such as negotiating stays at PnP camps. What it can do is forbid, for example, people arriving on the playa and paying for a room like you're visiting a hotel.

In effect, the decommodification principle is to keep the bartering of goods out of the mindset and common practice of people at the event. Yes, people pay for their camp dues on the playa. Yes, people buy ice and coffee, and maybe even fuel. People rent RVs and buy supplies. People trade labor. There may even be a time when water or other "necessities" are sold at the event much like ice. In the end, this isn't about keeping strict laws for all cases, or even pretending that exceptions won't be made. There is nothing perfect about any of the principles, just as the freedoms codified in this country's laws do not allow for all situations. It's more about keeping a principle for most transactions that occur on playa.

[kiboy]

but it doesn't necessarily imply that there is dishonesty in the whole enterprise; it may, instead, mean that there is no ability to enforce the principle, and also that pragmatic compromises are needed.

Agree, black and white thinking almost always results in a stalemate rather than constructive action.

There is nothing perfect about any of the principles, just as the freedoms codified in this country's laws do not allow for all situations. It's more about keeping a principle for most transactions that occur on playa.

Who decides or how is it decided when the line has been crossed?

[Lonesomebri]

... There is nothing perfect about any of the principles, just as the freedoms codified in this country's laws do not allow for all situations. It's more about keeping a principle for most transactions that occur on playa.

"keeping a principle" ha ha ha. Really, 'cause the more I read, it looks like the main goal is to find excuses for others to violate the principles?

3) Deal with people getting pissed off or at least mocking the obvious dishonesty of the whole enterprise.

[ranger magnum]

It was wrong when I got here....

[BBadger]

There is nothing perfect about any of the principles, just as the freedoms codified in this country's laws do not allow for all situations. It's more about keeping a principle for most transactions that occur on playa.

Who decides or how is it decided when the line has been crossed?

"keeping a principle" ha ha ha. Really, 'cause the more I read, it looks like the main goal is to find excuses for others to violate the principles?

Whoever can enforce "a line" is really what it comes down to. For PnP camps or anyone attending the event, even if the majority sentiment and BORG were fully behind preventing profiting or turnkey camping or any form of "commodification", the reach of enforcing that is finite.

At best, they can really only manage what goes on within the event. That's the meaning of "It's more about keeping a principle for most transactions that occur on playa": it's about the best that can be done. They could forbid the sale of coffee, Burner Express, or disallow "utility" services like grey water pumping, but in the end those are small change compared to whatever for-profit camps are out there. For the latter, it's essentially impossible to regulate because it is out of the jurisdiction of the event. Even the police are profiting from the event with increased enforcement.

It's not a matter of being dishonest*, rather the limits of what can be done no matter what the intentions.


*Except for that JT guy or other possible corruption, but that's another matter.

[pink]

Not allowing placement & RV delivery on playa would do,a lot to discourage pay for play camps. Not to mention paid employees. Hell, actually I think allowing water delivery & gray water pumping has done a huge amount of damage to radical self reliance and encouraged the slide towards these kind of camps. At least having to haul all of your water in & out would definitely have curbed anyone trying flush toilets on the playa.

Now Caravanicle didn't have RV delivery, & by the Sherpa's tale, did have a bunch of activities planned that would have it fall under the auspices of a theme camp eligible for placement. And other camps have had epic failures (I had a friend that tried a huge one his second burn & had literally everyone bail on him at the last minute; only a tiny portion of what was planned ever came to pass). So does one epic fail preclude placement forever? Or only epic failures by long term burners who also happen to be Borg board members?

I'm only asking these questions as to how do we keep this kind of crap off the playa.

[Lonesomebri]

Whoever can enforce "a line" is really what it comes down to. For PnP camps or anyone attending the event, even if the majority sentiment and BORG were fully behind preventing profiting or turnkey camping or any form of "commodification", the reach of enforcing that is finite.
It's not a matter of being dishonest*, rather the limits of what can be done no matter what the intentions.
*Except for that JT guy or other possible corruption, but that's another matter.

The intent.......that is the issue for me. All these fake do-gooders saying they really truly wish something could be done about the rich and powerful corrupting the event, while they make up excuses and try to derail any discussion aimed at solutions. Talk about dis-honest. If the intent is to derail and stop any control on Plug and Plays, have the honesty to admit that. Quit with the bs about not enough info, all rules and laws will be broke so why have any, radical inclusion demands we allow in crooks and criminals, etc etc etc. Sure, no law can be fully enforced, laws against rape on the playa are silly since it still happens, right? The whole, hell, what can be done, throws up hands in the air, is so lame it makes me ill. When a thread was started to try and come up with ways to deal with this issue, there were the fake do-gooders at every step, claiming not enough info, nothing can change, hell, they went so far as to claim Plug and Plays are like an act of nature. So lame. Then bring up ice and porta-potties, doing their damnedest to muddy the issue. And yet it made it to Jackrabbit Speaks....they offered a form for input, why is that? Not the lame fake do-gooders trying to derail the discussion. All your work, and for what? Take your own advise and let this issue die in you, why keep harping while claiming nothing can be done? If you ain't gonna help, get the hell out of the way.

Why did Jackrabbit Speaks and the Bmorg acknowledge this issue if it isn't an issue, and if nothing can be done? The answer, it is an issue, and alot can be done. Saying otherwise makes someone a fool or a liar or a tool. But they do have the satisfaction of helping out the powerful, have fun with that.

[kiboy]

Of course you're right, it is an issue. Everything having to do with the functioning of a community or city or whatever is an issue. People have varying desires and these have to be addressed and solutions or compromises come to. That's why cities have govts. To address the concerns of the citizens.


Rave on.

[Elderberry]

Somebody's starting to sound like a broken record in here. Ever try Mydol for that?

[Lonesomebri]

Somebody's starting to sound like a broken record in here. Ever try Mydol for that?

Why are you commenting here? Seriously. You champion the head in the sand approach, telling everyone else to fill out some form, yet here you are. Why? Why should others go elsewhere to complain, but you sit here and complain about them with a smirk? Why are you commenting here when you yourself have said it makes no difference? Just curious. I know it's not hypocrisy, no way. It can't be that you like sticking up for order and power at every oppurtunity, it can't be that, so shallow. So what is it? Why do you tell others to not comment on this issue here, yet you yourself continue? Any answer? Any? You sound like the cat that got the canary. I actually enjoy everyone commenting on this issue here. But then I can take it. And it's revealing to see who sides with the mega-camps bringing in exploited labor, leaving moop, and corrupting the Burn. Thank you Elderberry.

And I googled "Midol" just to confirm the implied sexism....way to moderate! (You're doing it wrong.)
"Midol has a number of unique products designed for the relief of your menstrual symptoms. Whether it is painful cramps, headache, fatigue, or even bloating..."

[Elderberry]

Let's just say I like stirring the pot.

But on a serious note, based on your last post, it doesn't sound like you have any idea where I stand on PnP at all.

[Elderberry]

Is making sure your Theme Camp is first registered as a LLC considered doing it wrong, or doing it right?

*Rainbow Cookie Foreign Exchange Camp*
Limited investment opportunities available.

Some large theme camps have been incorporating since long before there was PnP. For what I would think obvious reasons.

[Lonesomebri]

Let's just say I like stirring the pot.

But on a serious note, based on your last post, it doesn't sound like you have any idea where I stand on PnP at all.

Well, go fill out some form elsewhere and let us know where you stand. Actually, i know where you stand, it's not where you want us to think your standing.
And, on a serious note, I have a pretty good idea where you stand with women.....




Postby Elderberry » Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:34 pm
"Somebody's starting to sound like a broken record in here. Ever try Mydol for that?"

[goathead]

wouldn't standing at the keyboard get tiring after awhile? Plus, exactly how do you know where he is standing?

[Elderberry]

And, on a serious note, I have a pretty good idea where you stand with women....

Really? I mean really? Now I think you are starting to reveal your true colors. And I know exactly where you stand. I think you need to go to a few more burns to understand radical inclusion a bit better.

[kiboy]

Not fair. I was told that I probably don't belong at burning man.

[Elderberry]

Not fair. I was told that I probably don't belong at burning man.

Be quiet, nobody's talking to you.

[5280MeV]

At best, they can really only manage what goes on within the event. That's the meaning of "It's more about keeping a principle for most transactions that occur on playa": it's about the best that can be done.

This is really at the heart of the disagreement - what does it mean for a transaction to occur on the playa?

A transaction, or exchange, has two endpoints. At one, I give you some good, service, or money, and at the other, you give me some good service or money. The transaction can take place at one place and time, or we may negotiate that each part of the transaction takes place at a different place and time.

If I pay for a service online, or send someone a check, and then they perform a service for me on the playa, then part of that transaction is happening on the playa.

When I paid a caterer for my wedding, no transaction was initiated at the wedding, and no money changed hands during the wedding. Legally, I am pretty sure that the caterer was considered a vendor, and the fact that the caterer was paid to be there had a definite effect on the social environment of the wedding. It was "mediated by a commercial transaction". There was part of a transaction taking place, people were paid to be there, serve us food, smile, and put up with our demands within reason. They behaved differently because of the contract.

In the survival guide it says the following:

"The sale of products and services by participants is strictly prohibited. The display of commercial logos and banners, or distribution of commercial promotional items or materials is not tolerated in BRC. Sales of handmade items and food items “in order to cover costs of the trip” are not allowed. There is NO participant vending. Bring what you need. Confront your own survival. This is not a consumer event."

http://survival.burningman.com/culture/ ... en-of-brc/

Legally, running a for-profit full-service theme camp is catering - it is vending, and you ought to at least have a BLM permit to run your business.

When I read the survival guide and statement of principles, and talk to most participants, I do not get the impression that we are merely talking about the initiation of transactions, but the whole transaction. Going to an event where you rent out a theme camp that caters to all of your needs is going to a consumer event. It is not confronting your own survival. It is no different that chartering a yacht, except for the lack of seawater.

My understanding from the original conversations is that this is a growing trend. I suppose that if 10%, 25%, maybe up to 50% of the population is just going to the event as a consumer (albeit in an all-expenses-pre-paid fashion), then maybe Burning Man is really not a consumer event. If it gets to be more than that, then I say BS - it is obviously a consumer event, you just are not obviously advertising or initiating transactions, but commerce is clearly the dominant factor in the relationships between the consumer-burners, employee-burners, and business-owner-burners.

What I mean by dishonesty is that if coming to the event as a consumer is considered a positive thing for the event, and if a significant portion of the population are consumers or for-profit theme-camp employees, then it is just as consumer event as Coachella or Bonnaroo. Maybe that does make for an interesting new type of commercial festival, and maybe the lack of apparent ads, sponsorships, and initiation of commercial transactions is an improvement over other consumer events. Maybe that is just what Burning Man is destined to be, and maybe that is ok. Just don't say in that case that it is not a consumer event or that "radical self-reliance" or that "confronting your own survival" has anything to do with it.