The decline of BurningMan

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:28 pm

I guess what I'm trying to suggest is that there is also a somewhat less tangible comodity that I look at that is every bit the resource Harden speaks of. A finite resource not unlike the commons. Creativity and the associated energy that people bring to the playa in putting together BRCis that finite resource. There's a pool of highly energetic, cretive people who have an idea or concept and bust ass for months getting it together so that it stands realized for a week before taking it down or destroying it. That energy constitutes a good part of the fulcrum that makes the event happen year after year. The dilution of that energy, the taxing of the community resources, the draining of the creativity by mobs of people who arrive to attend the event rather than contributing synergistically to it is what I refer to when I speak of dilution...

gotta go...

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:04 am

These posts.... I am starting to feel some vague resemblance of hope.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:24 am

Rob the Wop wrote: Burning Man is in the throes of a civil war. One that is entirely unintentional and unconsious.

I found it strange there was more truth to your post than I wanted to admit.

Most sub-cultures are like this. They merge and blend in ways that in the beginning, share and take from each other as they grow. Once its established, things can become stale and many early adopters move on to 'The Next Big Thing.' They still may grow in population, but not as much the creativity when establishing a new social identity.

If anything, this 'Civil War' has polarized and strengthened the realization that the art is of more importance than the party scene. If it can survive, I think Burningman will still incorporate many of the influences the different sub-culture's bring.

Perhaps something more radical would help? If its the death of the 'Rave Scene,' then also the death of 'Burningman' that we all became too attached to? Time to burn it all and from its ashes, like the Phoenix, start with something new while carrying what was great into the next phase?

mowgli · Post by **mowgli** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:42 pm

Rob and Geekster,
I love it. these kids (rave generation) have lived their whole lives with everything given to them. Everything laid out for them. They don't know the word Create. Under 30 is the ADD generation. They don't know how to make art, but they want to!!! i'm telling you they want tto. It tears them up. Education is the way to go. Round up and forced art. It rocks. Its time that BM spawned a genertaion of teachers or torturers, whichever you prefer. If it is a community then it seems that the responsibility to educate should fall to the Vets. All communities need teachers to inspire and instill a sense of envestment to the newer generation or the old ways wither and die.

They want to be artists but they're afraid. Afraid to try. Afraid to work. Forced art, good for BM, good for babylon!

mowgli · Post by **mowgli** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:45 pm

Oh and I wanted to say that its nice to see the amounht of love and dedication for the event that alot of you have displayed in you'r various posts on this thread. As long as people love it, as more than just a big party, I think it will get better and better.

Cheers!!

playasnake · Post by **playasnake** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:37 pm

dude. you even know what a rave is? as in what the term used to mean?its long since dead, and has been dead for a while)

raves were temporary communities of celebration (punctuated with loud bass heavy music) where participation (eg bringing something for others, not just yourself...) was the norm.

does that sound at all like a festival we know of?

as for the kids not knowing how to make art? you gotta be kidding. the under 30 generations are less likely to buy something if it cant be customized than any other generation in history. customization is an avenue of self expression which is the root of artistic creation... i think at least.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:42 pm

playasnake wrote:dude. you even know what a rave is? as in what the term used to mean?its long since dead, and has been dead for a while)

Okay, so we can be pedantic about terminology if we want but I think we all fucking know what we are talking about. Why don't we just leave it to you to put the proper label on it. You can do it. I am not going to argue about terminology.

What I am talking about is a culture of people that come to BM to dance every fucking day and don't participate beyond the dance floor or their dance floor buddies and can't be bothered to actually check out the parts of the city where there are no dance camps.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:43 pm

To further elaborate ... those people that would not come to burning man if amplified music were banned. Because THAT is really the only reason they come and if it isnt there, neither are they.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:52 pm

those people that would not come to burning man if amplified music were banned

count me in on that group and so count out some big art.

think about what you are saying here. The last thing we need is another ban.

I'd much rather hang out with a group of folks who want to dance every night than a group of folks who come to BM to hook up. And yes, I think they are differrent groups.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:55 pm

this is drifting into a zone of defining what one should be doing there. Dangerous.

mowgli · Post by **mowgli** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:58 pm

Playasnake, Are you talking about the masses of uglyass tricked out Honda civics roving here and there eachone exactly the same except for the nauseating pastel colors and lettered logos all over the body? Are you fucking kidding me? What are you talking about? maybe elaborate a bit. i wasnt trying to insult anyone directly but you have to admit, growing up on MTV and videogames doesnt leave alot of time for creativity.

Umm.. and yeah. Rave, dance party, glowlight pacifier sucking, lotion bathing, etard "rave" kids. Sorry i dont know what a "Rave" is. i apologize profusely for my ignorance.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:59 pm

That was extreme, and ment as just an example. If the only thing someone is going for is one particular stimulation of one particular sense ...

I would not advocate the banning of amplified music but the point is ... if they banned paint, I would still go. If they banned faux fur I would still go. If they banned red blinkies or squeeky toy bike horns I would still go and if they banned recorded music, I would still go. I would even go if they banned booze. Because it isn't just about any single one of those things for me.

mowgli · Post by **mowgli** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:03 pm

No bans on anything. just getting people involved so that they can feel a sense of envestment. It is about radical self expression. Correct? I just think it's dificult for people to come out of their shell. We need a kick in the ass sometimes.

playasnake · Post by **playasnake** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:04 pm

just thought i would point out that "rave" means differnt things to different people. especially those who actually went to raves. sorry if i thought you might want to know what the word used to mean. go ahead and use it any way you see fit. doesnt matter to me. if you cant be bothered to learn about that which you object to, i dont really care about your point of view.

the original idea of a rave is close to what burningman espouses as their philosphy.

as far as all those people who are only dancing and not seeing anything else? how do you know this? maybe they came out there to dance.

i think its easy to say that its all the ravers fault that burningman isnt what it used to be. but from my personal observation, im not sure there are any more "rave" camps than there were 7 - 8 years ago.

i would even say there were less this year than in some of the recent past years, though i would need some maps and a white board to prove it.

playasnake · Post by **playasnake** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:07 pm

mowgli wrote:Playasnake, Are you talking about the masses of uglyass tricked out Honda civics roving here and there eachone exactly the same except for the nauseating pastel colors and lettered logos all over the body?

yes as a matter of fact i am (not quite in such 2d terms, but yes). the fact that most of it is ugly as hell is a personal perception thing. you cant dispute the fact that it is self-expression...

dunno. maybe you can.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:10 pm

The first raves I knew about used to happen back in the early 90s. They would BREAK IN to a warehouse, set up DJs and equipment, and party non-stop til' morning. I knew a number of people who were really big into them.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:16 pm

so, what is it then that we are supposed to attend for?

I am getting this loose sense of 'you need to do burning man this way and with this ethos'

are we getting into the dreaded 'spirit of burning man' zone here?

I would like to bring this back around.

Do you really think faux fur wearing, electronic dance music loving people are responsible for what you percieve as a decline?

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:36 pm

No, I don't Stuart. But what IS responsible is a large population of attendees that come to be entertained and bring nothing other than some costumage. They get the "did burning man" block on their social ticket punched. The kinds of camps with the non-stop music are pretty much one-way communication. There ARE exceptions, of course. There are camps with art AND music. Some fucking awesome art too. It isn't the camps that are the problem, it is the kind of participant they are attracting.

I would personally like to see more live music. More interactive stuff. More art. More community. You cant talk to people when you have 200 wats of music blaring at you. I know of a few people that went out on the playa exactly twice for purposes other than just taking a shortcut to the rave camp on the other side of the city .... once to see the man, and once to see the temple ... and that was it.

I want to see pranks ... BIG pranks ... I want to see someone dowse the man with a water cannon ... rather than people sitting around looking at the Who What Where picking out what they are going to do that day, they should be out there plotting what others are going to see that day ... FUCK we need some people that actually have some gumption not sheep that migrate from one DJ salt-lick to the next.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:41 pm

I guess what I am saying is that it is just too fucking canned. Like a goddamned can of Hormel Chili

playasnake · Post by **playasnake** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:54 pm

I think a new city layout would do a lot for people's perception of the event.

d6 · Post by d6 » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:06 pm

"dj salt-lick"
heh-heh.

hmmm. well drifters,

I dont care what "brand" or "label a person chooses to identify with, they're either going to try or not. so whats the point in a universal across the board bashing?

all ravers = eeediots?
punkers = suck
hessian obsessions = sweet hair and teenage moustaches?
indie rock backpackers = suspect performance artists
burners = sex drug trance dancing wrench monkeys ?

and on and on and on

I'm down to listen to anyone that can articulate their point of view, but as soon as it's all about nonstop taking entertain ME dammit or else, I'm gone.

ah creation.
and personal responsibility.

what would the world be like if everyone modified their unimogs?
should i vote for kang or kodos?
wheres my __________?
theres more to life than what, exactly?

where did this thread go?

d6,
stupid bot, fuckin off now.

d6 · Post by d6 » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:17 pm

isn't the vicious rumour that the push for 3 seperate "cities" with the man still centralized, closer than ever before?

d6,
unimog lover, not fighter

"oh, ice cream bar, how i love you....."
"I'm beginning to think that Cadet Stimpy can no longer be trusted, he's gone crazy.....he's got ah, SPACE MADNESS"!

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:34 pm

first year I went I didn't do shit.

now, I was fully prepared and totally self sufficient but I did not 'participatetm' I came, I saw, yeah I even danced a bit. I think this is a common newbie tack. So, at 50% noobs this year...

Pranks? I don't want any pranks. I think it would be very disrespectful to fuck with other folks stuff, weather it be heckling a DJ or hosing the man down. Why is fucking with other peoples art more valuable than just showing up, prepared, and dancing? I know it does not make me a spiffy cacophonist, but I'll take the latter behavior. Especially in the context of having months of work at risk.

Would burning man be better if we banned all prankish behavior?

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:54 pm

Do you really think faux fur wearing, electronic dance music loving people are responsible for what you percieve as a decline?

Not completely. I do however think a number of the folks attracted to such venues like Lush and Sol System are symptomatic of a the 'dilution' thing. Yeah, I know it's probably a big stereotypical stroke applied with a large brush but on the whole the perception - the stereotype - as far as my personal experiences go have been reinforced more often than not by folks who seem to migrate to the music camps and stay there an inordinate amount of the time night after night. As a Ranger shift lead who worked pretty much every midnight to 8am shift during the event I can assure you that the majority of calls involving the need for medical response, evacuation, assault, harassment, fights, dehydration, alcohol poisoning, and to a lesser extent injury and misc issues take place along the Esplanade usually at or on the periphery of the large rave sites.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:21 pm

They don't know the word Create.

bullllllllshit

I meet a lot more people who are much younger than I am who are way more interested in community and creativity than the pack of androids I grew up with. Just look at the amazing tools kids have at their disposal today. I would have shit myself if I had what I have in front of me now growing up.

Badger, I keep trying to find a way to parse your data in way that does not paint suchh a bleak picture but I can't so much. Other than that perhaps if you were able to adjust for population density and such it might not be so stark. Being the man on the ground though, I defer.

I am proud of the fact that we had no ranger requiring incidents at my camp however. Not that I had anything like the scale of Lush, etc. going on.

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:21 pm

stuart wrote:
They don't know the word Create.
bullllllllshit

I meet a lot more people who are much younger than I am who are way more interested in community and creativity than the pack of androids I grew up with. Just look at the amazing tools kids have at their disposal today. I would have shit myself if I had what I have in front of me now growing up.

Badger, I keep trying to find a way to parse your data in way that does not paint suchh a bleak picture but I can't so much. Other than that perhaps if you were able to adjust for population density and such it might not be so stark. Being the man on the ground though, I defer.

I am proud of the fact that we had no ranger requiring incidents at my camp however. Not that I had anything like the scale of Lush, etc. going on.

This made think how cool it would be to provide infrastructure like video projectors and screens, computers what ever it would take in order to facilitate the presentation or display of the kind of art your talking about.

I of course don't have the money or expertise to do anything like that.

Stuart I guess I'm not really familiar with your three screen piece to know, does it run dusk to dawn or would there be a time on your equipment to display other peoples work maybe at scheduled off times? Or do you think interest would be great enough to check into a grant to put something together?

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:03 am

stuart wrote:
They don't know the word Create.
bullllllllshit

I meet a lot more people who are much younger than I am who are way more interested in community and creativity than the pack of androids I grew up with. Just look at the amazing tools kids have at their disposal today. I would have shit myself if I had what I have in front of me now growing up.

Thanks for taking this on, Stuart. I would also like to remind people of the whole GenerationX/Slacker thing, when an age cohort was dismissed as lazy do-nothings but when the economy picked up suddenly became hard workers. (No cites, media foddder I remember.) Creativity (IMHO) is so innate to humanity that you cannot have a statistically significant section of any population that "does not know the word 'Create.'"

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:21 am

stuart wrote:
They don't know the word Create.

I meet a lot more people who are much younger than I am who are way more interested in community and creativity than the pack of androids I grew up with.

Word

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:35 am

Zu,

my set-up was very specific. I had folks ask me before the event if they could use it for their stuff. I told them the installation was not designed to be a standard definition theatre. That if they had material formatted specifically for a 4x1 format they were more than welcome. Of course, no one did. I was trying to accomplish a blending of the installation design as well as the media design. I ran it from about 9 to dawn but it was just an hour long loop. I eventually caved and offered time and infrastructure to other folks but I guess VJs can be as flakey as DJs (not all DJs, the ones we got were stellar). I did have a few folks randomly come by and ask to show pieces they had put together. I never turned anyone away.

next year will likely be something else. I am entering my R&D period. Once the theme is announced I go into production mode.

Kiba · Post by **Kiba** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:16 am

I want to see pranks ... BIG pranks ...

That's a mervelous idea. Excuse me for stepping on anyone's toes, but my favorite part of BM was walking around interacting with people during the day. Yeah, the lights and sounds are cool when intoxicated, but the daytime, communative, interactive experience was far more rewarding. You can't see the smile on someone's face if they're wearing a mask. You can't look them in the eye as you tell them about yourself and ask them where they're from. At night, when everybody gets a little crazy, yeah that's fun with the music, bass, dancing, and whatever. I'm definitely going to enjoy that a little more next year.
But I'm going back, to meet/greet/interact with people during the day. And now, they might get ambushed by waterguns. Don't worry, there'll be a disclaimer. ^_^

The decline of BurningMan

Re: The War at Burning Man.