It's SHOWTIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
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stuart
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Post by stuart » Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:29 am

Whatever beings are collaborating to create this existence, I sure as hell hope they are artists
the idea of a world run by artists gives me nightmares. Have you not spent any time hanging out with us? We are egotistical tyrants forever seeking the approval of mommy and daddy.
No, it is the art, stupid.
no sir, it's the people, stupid.
Experiencing art, even in the form of schlock pop music or movies, is the main collective goose bump pathway we have in modern life.
no sir, it's the people, stupid. All the grantfundedmigweldedabstractburningshit in the world means not a thing without an other.

golf carts
i nominate this for next years theme
call me baby

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samtzu
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Post by samtzu » Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:30 am

Natthebat wrote:
What Natalie thinks, Revolution is fast, complex and potentially deadly. It's a political word. Revolution is when "the governed" implement a new government. Evolution is slow and we could all be dead before we have a chance to see the fruits of our labors. Evolution in a natural, organic process. I would also like to note that some species evolved themselves into extinction. At the core of all this burning passion we share, is the question of how to grow best. That is my primary concern. I'm new and I'll be damned if I caught the end of this.

I think the differences between revolution and evolution hold the key to the future of Burning Man. Too fast and we could fuck it all up. Important people with a lot to contribute could suffer. Revolution implies blood shed, the blood we waste here is our energy. Too slow and we waste our energy with no purpose. Waiting for evolution? Fuck that. I would rather participate in concious revolution. Well planned revolution.
She wrote other things (which really excited me!) but for now, here is my reply to these two paragraphs:
Rebellion; Noun; 1. Refusal to accept some authority or code or convention; "each generation must have its own rebellion"; "his body was in rebellion against fatigue".
2. Organized opposition to authority; a conflict in which one faction tries to wrest control from another.
This is a rebelion, pure and simple, trying to lead to a revolution (See Wikipidia 'Revolution, a sudden drastic change). Revolutions are usually very messy. I dislike them because they often kill something that only needs a minor modification. And, the revolutionists often become worse than the people that they replaced (Russian and French Revolutions, and Pete Townsend's phrase, "Meet the new boss; same as the old boss", which has been used in reference to this petition before).

Evolution is the 'natural' (whatever that means) order of things, and usually grows out of an organic cause. This petition (and the brew-haw-haw following its posting) does not appear to be the case. Actually, I'm thankful that nesdon posted what was posted: it appears to be a family squabble that has engulfed the entire community. Well, before we all show up on Maury Povich, let's all take a deep breath and look at this thing rationally... and reason tells me that this is still a money (or cookie) grab! This is not a 'natural' outgrowth, unless you would consider a tumor a natural growth. It has blossomed out of resentment of the success of Burning Man, and it continues to grow daily (yup, even my posting here helps to keep it alive... bummer) and will continue to grow until it is either removed or it is resolved though reasonable means.

Burning Man is not "Just about Art"... it has evolved past that... nor is it "A big Par-tay!"... I hope it quickly passes through that! It is an complex event that tries to embrace all artistic sentiments, and give them the means to express those sentiments for one week in the middle of nowhere. I am an actor; can I apply for an art grant for my performance of Falstaff in Merry Wives of Windsor and expect to get it? No? Why not? Because the powers that be deem that this is not appropriate for an expenditure of the BMORG funds? Well, I agree... and I won't ask for it. But I won't be a part of a money grab that tries to get power over the purse, with no sense of responsibility towards other artists. All I saw in the petition was the reference to representational art, and damn everyone else. Is this the revolution you want? Or even the evolution you want? If so, then you are cutting out about %75 of the people who attend for other reasons.

Well, that's my $.02 for now... and if you book the room, we can talk about it futher. (Oooohhh... you're so cute when you insult and mock me!)
The revolutionary does not grow up because he cannot grow, while the creative individual cannot grow up because he keeps growing ~~ Eric Hoffer

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samtzu
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Post by samtzu » Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:32 am

Natthebat wrote:
What Natalie thinks, Revolution is fast, complex and potentially deadly. It's a political word. Revolution is when "the governed" implement a new government. Evolution is slow and we could all be dead before we have a chance to see the fruits of our labors. Evolution in a natural, organic process. I would also like to note that some species evolved themselves into extinction. At the core of all this burning passion we share, is the question of how to grow best. That is my primary concern. I'm new and I'll be damned if I caught the end of this.

I think the differences between revolution and evolution hold the key to the future of Burning Man. Too fast and we could fuck it all up. Important people with a lot to contribute could suffer. Revolution implies blood shed, the blood we waste here is our energy. Too slow and we waste our energy with no purpose. Waiting for evolution? Fuck that. I would rather participate in concious revolution. Well planned revolution.
She wrote other things (which really excited me!) but for now, here is my reply to these two paragraphs:
Rebellion; Noun; 1. Refusal to accept some authority or code or convention; "each generation must have its own rebellion"; "his body was in rebellion against fatigue".
2. Organized opposition to authority; a conflict in which one faction tries to wrest control from another.
This is a rebelion, pure and simple, trying to lead to a revolution (See Wikipidia 'Revolution, a sudden drastic change). Revolutions are usually very messy. I dislike them because they often kill something that only needs a minor modification. And, the revolutionists often become worse than the people that they replaced (Russian and French Revolutions, and Pete Townsend's phrase, "Meet the new boss; same as the old boss", which has been used in reference to this petition before).

Evolution is the 'natural' (whatever that means) order of things, and usually grows out of an organic cause. This petition (and the brew-haw-haw following its posting) does not appear to be the case. Actually, I'm thankful that nesdon posted what was posted: it appears to be a family squabble that has engulfed the entire community. Well, before we all show up on Maury Povich, let's all take a deep breath and look at this thing rationally... and reason tells me that this is still a money (or cookie) grab! This is not a 'natural' outgrowth, unless you would consider a tumor a natural growth. It has blossomed out of resentment of the success of Burning Man, and it continues to grow daily (yup, even my posting here helps to keep it alive... bummer) and will continue to grow until it is either removed or it is resolved though reasonable means.

Burning Man is not "Just about Art"... it has evolved past that... nor is it "A big Par-tay!"... I hope it quickly passes through that! It is an complex event that tries to embrace all artistic sentiments, and give them the means to express those sentiments for one week in the middle of nowhere. I am an actor; can I apply for an art grant for my performance of Falstaff in Merry Wives of Windsor and expect to get it? No? Why not? Because the powers that be deem that this is not appropriate for an expenditure of the BMORG funds? Well, I agree... and I won't ask for it. But I won't be a part of a money grab that tries to get power over the purse, with no sense of responsibility towards other artists. All I saw in the petition was the reference to representational art, and damn everyone else. Is this the revolution you want? Or even the evolution you want? If so, then you are cutting out about %75 of the people who attend for other reasons.

Well, that's my $.02 for now... and if you book the room, we can talk about it futher. (Oooohhh... you're so cute when you insult and mock me!)
The revolutionary does not grow up because he cannot grow, while the creative individual cannot grow up because he keeps growing ~~ Eric Hoffer

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nesdon
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we the people

Post by nesdon » Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:52 am

well duh. Without the people there is nothing. I asssumed that was self evident. The question is what unites the people, what about this particular gathering of people is unique, and how to maintain it.

Fan Clubs and neighborhoods are all about the people too, don't you want more? And don't you want an organization that promises even more than that?

Obviously America is not all about the economy, it's about the people too (well duh again) and a whole lot more. These are big complex things, but the economy was what Carville felt they had special to offer, and what the people needed and wanted, as as indeed it was.

If you really think that any 30,000 people on a desert campout is the same as anyother, I'm glad you're not in charge.

Nesdon

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stuart
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Post by stuart » Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:25 pm

think that any 30,000 people on a desert campout is the same as anyother
I have no basis for comparison.


and no, I do not want any more fan clubs.
call me baby

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:00 pm

stuart wrote:
Whatever beings are collaborating to create this existence, I sure as hell hope they are artists
the idea of a world run by artists gives me nightmares. Have you not spent any time hanging out with us? We are egotistical tyrants forever seeking the approval of mommy and daddy.
Oooooooooooooh.

Poll idea. Which artist's dictatorship would you like to live under?
Dali.
Judy Chicago.
Dickens.
David Lynch.
Madonna.
Van Gogh.
Chopin.
Beethoven.
Andy Warhol.
Oscar Wilde.
Michealangelo.
Goya.
Kurasawa.
Anonamous.
Matt Groenig.
Britney Spears.
ect.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:02 pm

stuart wrote:
think that any 30,000 people on a desert campout is the same as anyother
I have no basis for comparison.


and no, I do not want any more fan clubs.
Not even those fan clubs that help you get special backstage tickets and then go bankrupt without refunding your money? Now that's burning someone.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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stuart
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Post by stuart » Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:22 pm

didn't we already have an artists dictatorship recently?


is this thread now officially dead?
call me baby

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DVD Burner
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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:23 pm

This thread was born dead.
https://www.facebook.com/NeXTCODER

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:56 pm

stuart wrote:didn't we already have an artists dictatorship recently?
You're right. I'd forgotten the Mapplethorpe coup. All that manditory shaving my head bald made the memories leak right out.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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mowgli
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Post by mowgli » Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:00 pm

Wow!!!! This thread and topic has gone off the deep end. It seems that many of us are trying to assign specific meaning to an event that is really
about celebrating human expression and the ways in which this type of celebration builds strong community through mutual awe and respect.

i don't understand how anyone cannot relate to Jims proposal. i doubt that Mr mason believes that all that he's put forth is etched in stone. All I see is a man has a deep respect and love for the original experiment and how it came to life in the early years. i hear many old timers proclaiming that Burning Man is dead. Jim and Chicken seem to think the event is in crisis. Dead and in crisis are very different things i think.

These guys simply don't want the huge, jaw dropping, awe inspiring, piss your pants art to be left behind in the wake of all night raves and an ever growing number of spectators. they are afraid to lose the essence and inspiration. Not afraid of change. Maybe talk and exchange ideas instead of all this shit slinging. We all love the event, the art, the desert, the man, the fire, the feeling of belonging these things give us.

Sorry, but it just blows my mind how easy it is for people to degrade and tear down others dreams and ideas rather than create a forum for true exchange.

ok now beat me up.

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:05 pm

Oh my life and experience is useless. I missed the formative years and need my memory wiped. then put on ice until american creativity is reborned. You can nestle me right next to walt, and I'll see if I can put some salt water into his dreams.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

Rian Jackson
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Post by Rian Jackson » Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:05 pm

mowgli, i don't think anyone will quibble with your statements.

might i point out that
1) just because someone's passionate doesn't mean their ideas are good, and
2) people react badly when there is obvious condescension aimed at them?

just sayin'...
(not rippin')
surlier than thou

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Post by sparkletarte » Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:09 pm

I vote for ManWoman!

"ManWoman: tattooed Canadian Pop artist's transformational art visions. This biographical artsite educates about the sexual/spiritual experience, death, rebirth and ecstasy and his quest to cleanse the swastika."

Image

http://www.manwoman.net/ I couldn't pick just one picture to post, so you'll have to visit to see them all. He's so smart and funny!

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:10 pm

That Information is in print, I believe it to be true.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:10 pm

Rian Jackson wrote:mowgli, i don't think anyone will quibble with your statements.

might i point out that
1) just because someone's passionate doesn't mean their ideas are good, and
2) people react badly when there is obvious condescension aimed at them?

just sayin'...
(not rippin')
Ha! I'm a born quibbler!
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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nesdon
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More than a fan club

Post by nesdon » Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:26 pm

Pardon my poor syntax. I wondered if people didn't want more than a fan club. A fan club is all about the people, and it is also often about art, there is good camaraderie and unified purpose and love, most every part of the community that the detractors of Jim and Chicken's petition seem to feel is the essence of burning man.

Many of us, and Larry I suspect first among us, have thought very long, hard and deeply about the nature and future of this very unique and special event. For Jim and Larry, nothing in their lives is as it would have been without B man. For many others, especially in the Bay Area arts communities the very same is true.

We are all (and I am not a member of that community except in spirit) grateful to see others around the world share this amazing transformation of their local communities. Certainly Larry has been focused on the globalization of the experience recently, and while that expansion in no way need threaten the intrinsic process, something is clearly changing for the worse.

There is this cliché from many jaded old timers: every year the cooler-than-thou lament the loss of the Good Ole Days. It's easy to heap this movement for reform into that genre. But, I met Jim out there, and have known him in the context of the event for many years, and he has, despite his obvious credentials and right to gripe, always been a staunch defender of the changeling nature of the event, and recognizer of its continuing magic despite the proliferation of the "vile boom boom music" he so dislikes.

And, in fact, this whole exchange is evidence of that belief and commitment. Nowhere has he suggested forbidding Raves, restricting regional involvement, or re-centering the thing on his local scene. All the suggestions are in furtherance of Larry's globalized vision, in favor of expanding and changing.

It is sad to see so many without the same long philosophical history, line up against these reforms; so many who have not spent literal years of their lives, cups of their blood and gallons of their sweat in service of this community. Sure Jim and Chicken have been a little hot-headed, but have stepped up and recognized and apologized.

I've tried to make it clear to Larry that I have faith in the sincerity of his motives, but the inherent dishonestly of some of his rhetoric in this, especially in his attempting to characterize Jim's proposals as parochial, have made me start to doubt that sincerity. The text of almost all of the hundreds of pages Jim has written around all this, make the sincerity of his motives very clear, even if often inflamed by love and fear for Burning Man at times.

Within hours of arriving at Lake Lahontan, in 1998, I decided I would be there every Labor Day for the rest of my life. This year I quit my job to be there. None of my friends or family go, and I've never danced, been drunk or had sex there. But it is the biggest social experiment I have ever seen, and as a scientist, I can’t help but help it develop. It is also the most monumental work of art I have ever seen, and as an artist, I can't help but help it develop.

One thing I do not agree with in the We Have A Dream proposal, is that if adequate reforms are not established, I will pull out. I will continue to attend, but be sadly relegated to the despised role of a spectator. Because as I watch it disintegrate, I can’t help but NOT help it do that.

Nesdon

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Post by Rian Jackson » Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:39 pm

mowgli:
please make sure you are reading all relevant posts on the subject. i may point out that many of the things larry said were said here first. take that for what you will.

i don't think anyone has disagreed that BM could use some change. the argument is largely
a) what needs to change, which varies according to people's definitions of what BM is
b) how to change that (Jim is being dismissed largely on the unworkability of his ideas, not the lack of value in wanting change)
c) the way that Jim AND larry are treating this community in this recent string of communiques.

once you do the reading i suspect you'll find that you are, in part, fighting with windmills...

now, on to constructive things (i'm really tired of repeating myself for those who don't do the reading on their own):

does your vision for change - and your tactics - coincide with Jim's?
do you have other ideas?
c'mon, enough words, let's build something.
surlier than thou

Cardinal
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Post by Cardinal » Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:51 pm

The subtle art of Trolling

http://www.urban75.com/Mag/troll.html

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nesdon
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Reason

Post by nesdon » Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:56 pm

Samtzu wrote:
and reason tells me that this is still a money (or cookie) grab! This is not a 'natural' outgrowth, unless you would consider a tumor a natural growth. It has blossomed out of resentment of the success of Burning Man
I hate that you used my name to support this utterly false position. Reason may tell you that, but reason will also tell you that if you let 20,000 people camp out and party for a week, they will leave a big mess (BLM confirmed that B man has enormously less impact that your average “speed week” has with a tiny fraction of the participants). Reason tells you that anyone who owns a multi-million dollar enterprise will get rich from it; reason will tell you that a gift economy is an oxymoron, reason will tell you that you could never get a dozen near strangers to spend months of their lives and all their savings to help build something that they will then destroy. Reason would tell you that if you left your wallet sitting in the dash of your unlocked car in the middle of a heavily raveled parking lot, it would not be there a week later.

It takes a lot more than convention wisdom and reason to understand what this is all about. I guarantee that this is not about a money grab. It is exactly what it says it is, an effort to decentralize the control of the art to the end of better intrinsic experience at the event.

And I think if you have a performance that you can reasonably demostrate will enrich my experience out there, you should apply for a grant and get it. See, rather than you standing in your camp and quoting Shakespear, a wonderful act of self expression, I'd love to see you be able to take Merry Wives where no one has gone before. Get a grant and be able to afford to build a gonzo replica of the Globe out by the trash fence, and be able to afford to make a bunch of Elizabethan Rave get ups to wear as costumes, and let your reason go as you attempt to interpret Merry Wives in service of nothing but the art, as nothing but a gift to the community that helped you make it.

Nesdon

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Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:12 am

Cardinal wrote:The subtle art of Trolling
If there is a "Classic Eplaya Troll" then the petition and side stuff are well within formula. And I react in the exact same way I always do.




Even I gotta laugh at me.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Post by Cardinal » Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:37 am

Crypto, your posts are not part of the reasoning for posting that link. Jim Mason's posting style and approach to the petition discussion mirror some of the information I linked to. I wanted to highlight the similarities and nothing more.

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Post by Cardinal » Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:34 am

The petition drive has morphed into something very interesting.

http://www.borg2.org/

Intentional but related crosspost.

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It is showtime, after all.....

Post by Chicken John » Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:12 am

A quick recap on the Burning Man drama of late. . . (more woo woo for your hoo ha)

Before we realized we were actually arguing whether it's an art or a community festival
but after we were disgusted by all the bureaucratic woo-woo and around the same time that
everyone was fucking done and going to Mexico to surf but slightly to the left of hitting
the nail on the head with our new motto "It's the art, stupid." we found that spelling
counts, grammar is a delicate flower, people don't like to get yelled at, and when you tip
a sacred cow it's 20% of the bill plus $4 a day per person. You can't say the artists
going on strike isn't funny. OK, you can, but just this once.

The ideas contained in the petition are valid. They have weight, width, texture, and
temperature. They aren't simply guesses or best attempts. These are real bona fide ideas.
They graduated, with honors. We feel they are adult ideas, fully matured ideas and the
people who signed the petition (and everyone else who is so inclined) are ready to
implement them and make them work. I am behind them 100%. So will everyone else in about 5
minutes.

Now Larry, we realize you haven't been 'down' with these ideas, but I can understand that.
You're the head honcho and who are we to tell you how to run the show. But I, as a
showman, recognize a show in need when I see a show in need, and this show is clearly in
need of some new woo woo. For its hoo ha. The hoo ha needs new woo woo.So I couldn't
help myself and we've had a little fun poking you and suggesting how we might better
run the show by running it all together. You see, this is one of the main points we have
ALL agreed on here, that this is not just your show alone. That we ALL make this show
together every year, so it only seems reasonable that everyone should have a little say
in how the show is run. It's really quite simple what we have asked for. Just a little say in
the running of the show. Just a little pinch. A pinch of woo woo for your hoo ha.

I am stepping to the side now, as I have other things to do, but on my departure, I would
like to suggest that we finish off this little family tiff not with more discussion and
debate, but rather with an experiment- a test of the ideas in the rough crucible of
reality. Let's put these ideas down on the road and see if they take us where we want to
go.

I humbly propose we test drive these ideas through a somewhat unique "event within the
event". The idea is that you do everything that you normally do and we do our own thing.
And you simply let us. We want to experiment with the MASSIVELY
COLLABORATIVE and RADICALLY DEMOCRATIC methods laid out in the We Have a Dream Petition.
You run your event the way you like, and the people run their event the way they like-
bearing the burden (and having the fun) of making this new system from scratch, tweaking
it and redoing it, failing and then trying again until it works. If you let them do it,
I'm sure you can convince them to deliver a full report to your desk at 9:00 Monday
morning, the 12th of September, 2005.

I've talked to a bunch of people about this and they want to do it. We have come up with
a name for this experiment and inspiration (we have to admit we stole this one directly
from you) and we are going to call it the "BORG2". There is even a website now, which you
can see at www.borg2.org.

The people interested in this experiment are proposing a rather innovative solution to
Burning Man and its typical discontents. Instead of just splitting off and walking away in
disgust (like so many have done before) they are proposing to SPLIT IN, or rather ENGULF
INWARDS. The idea is to hold "an event within your event". A sort of small scale
experimental art walk for lack of a better way to describe it. And we will run our little
experiment using the plan laid out in the We Have a Dream Petition: democratic voting,
guest curators, free art-making, and all that. All will be welcome to participate, vote,
build, camp, eat, fuck, and kill ect. . . . Especially invited are those disillusioned
with the "other" BMorg. Like back in the beginning, we are just going to fucking do it.
Thousands of people arriving at the gates of Burning Man demanding to
pay their fair share so they can give their art away. Boom. But these people will not
have the benefit of your expert curatorial methods, the delicate placement skills of your
competent staff or the burden of the theme to consider. They will be part of a new
populist experiment.

I think the people are onto something here and I have every confidence that the reality
will far exceed the concepts and initial ideas we put forth.

In fact, I feel so strongly about this that I would like to propose a small bet, Mr.
Harvey. When Gentleman see no other way to settle a difference, a wager is what is in
order.

I bet you that the people of the petition can make a system of MASSIVELY COLLABORATIVE
RADICAL DEMOCRACY, with guest curators and voting and all that, and in the process inspire
a volume and quality of creative work that you will envy and wish you were responsible for
yourself. In fact, I find these ideas so strong, so self-evidently true, so INVINCIBLE TO
STUPIDITY, that no one alive could mess up an experiment based on these ideas. The ideas
are THAT strong.

I am so confident in these ideas, that I Chicken John (idiot) challenge you, Larry Harvey
(leader of humanity) to a contest of curatorial methods. A bet of art facilitation and
inspiration if you will.

In short, I CHALLENGE YOU TO AN ART DUEL.

I bet you that these ideas will work and the 1000+ petitioners will be successful in their
designs. And when they are, I only ask that you CONSIDER changing the current Burning Man
art system to better reflect the ideas and methods they used to achieve their success.

If I am wrong and the petitioners are unsuccessful, I hereby commit to sit in a dunk booth
at next years Burning Man Decompression Party and let everyone soak my ass, all day long.
And yes, I will sit there all day long- throw, after throw, after throw. Wearing a sarong.

Larry Harvey, I bet you my COMPLETE and UTTER HUMILIATION against your mild consideration;
that is how confident I am that these ideas will work.


The details:

The petitioners are going to need a couple things to make this a fair fight and I hope you
will be a good sport about it. They are going to need their own dedicated area to site the
BORG2 artworks. Be nice to them and give 'em some good real estate, OK? There is gonna be
a lot of them and they are also going to need somewhere to camp. They will likely need a
big chunk of one arm of the city, just for them. Can you do that?

They are also going to need some money. But they aren't asking for your money. No, they
would like to raise and distribute their own money for those projects of adequate ambition
that they are simply not possible to do without some form of financial help. The goal of
the BORG2 is to raise $250,000, basically matching your art budget from 2004, and dole out
the money through Guest Curators and Voting as laid out in the petition.

That's right. A quarter million dollars. Or I go in the dunk tank. They raise Two Hundred
and Fifty Thousand Dollars and turn it into great art or I'm all wet.

To raise this money they are going to need a minor convenience from you.. They would like
ticket buyers to know of this extra art fund and give them the opportunity to donate a 10%
premium on top of their regular ticket purchase, with the money going directly to the
BORG2 Art Fund. This donated money will be fully dispersed to artists to make art. Now
you probably can't make this a part of your formal ticketing process, but you could
include it on the web pages that give information about buying tickets, as well as
announce it in the JRS when you discuss ticket sales. After all, the BORG2 will be raising
money for the BORG1 event. You kinda want them to succeed, but you also kinda want to them
to fail so you win the bet. Not really sure how you are going to keep all this straight
in your head, but you're a smart guy and I'm sure you'll figure it out. And remember, in
the end, you get the first throw.

Finally, I should add, they want to be left alone so they can do their thing, either
succeeding or falling on their faces by their own wiles and ways. Do you think you can
just leave them alone and just let them do their thing, the way they want? They would
really like that. They will obey all safety regulations and all that stuff, but they don't
want to talk to anyone who drives a golf cart.

I think that's about it. Sounds like fun to me.

So Mr. Harvey, do we have a bet? I'm betting my sweet bippy that the people can put more
woo woo in your hoo ha or I'm going in the tank. And I mean it.

I anxiously and enthusiastically await your response to my respectful and artful wager
with reckless abandon.


Chicken John,
Defender of Justice

Cardinal
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Post by Cardinal » Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:39 am

$250K from $10 on top of normal ticket prices? Interesting.
Q: Who will pay for the additional overhead involved with handling that extra money?
Q: Why not setup your own event instead of relying on Larry / the ORG for anything? The BLM needs the supplemental funding and should work with your group.

Observation: It looks like your idea to reform the grant process was rejected by the majority; 500 signatures on a petition do not give any one group or authority a mandate to proceed.

At face value the whole petition process looks questionable with regards to it's overall intent. Despite the repeated denials, careful scrutiny of the posts can make one wonder if what we see is really what we're going to get. Is it about the art? Or is this a competition with Larry that's dragging the community along for the ride, ie: pawns on the chessboard? It's just a thought. But an intriguing one.

Chicken John
Posts: 48
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Location: SF
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Post by Chicken John » Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:10 pm

your Holiness, please trust me. You must have faith. If we can not trust each other, how can I get you buy drinks at my bar?

Dustdevil
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Camp Name: Brain Freeze / Got Stickers
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Post by Dustdevil » Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:36 pm

Chicken John,

I have been following this thread with interest but this is the first thing I have read that makes any sense. I have two questions, however. 1) If you do not wish to speak to or more accurately interact with anyone on a golf cart, do you have provisions for the safety inspections of fire art. This is mandated by the BLM as is the requirement that the BLM be advised of where fire art is located. 2) If something goes horribly wrong, who is ulitimately responsible? It would seem that the BM organization would still be holding the bag if that were the case as it is their permit that you would be using on the Playa. Please do not feel I am picking on your idea. I actually like it. Where am I coming from? I am have attended since 1996, I have created and brought a LARGE fire art "device" for the last two years and I am on the Performance Safety Team inspecting flame effects.
Those who think they can and those who think they can't are both right.

Chicken John
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:13 pm
Location: SF
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Post by Chicken John » Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:55 pm

If it is true (and it is) that BM is open to all artists, and it is true that BM & BLM have safety requirements (which is totaly resonable), then any artist is welcome to show their work but they must meet these requirements. We don't want a seperate elite sub-city, we just want to try these ideas. We will do all the things that any of the other people have to do, and we'll even do it with bells on. Our main intention is to have the fund raising and the curation/democracy part. We don't want to be unsafe or menacing. Or sinister. We just have felt very baby-sat in the past. This is all an experiment. We don't want to take anything away from anyone, we just want put our energy in a positive vessel. This is what we have come up with. We'll try it, what's the worst thing that can happen? I have been involved in BM for a long time, and I personally am not going to do anything nor would I EVER let ANYONE do ANYTHING that I though was wildly unsafe. I wore a Ranger hat when there were a handful of Rangers; so trust me I know the awful feeling in the pit of your stomache when your at the scene of an accident at BM and there is someone down and your thinking to yourself: "My God, I made this event and now this guy is gonna die and it's my fault!". I've been there and understand and I'm with ya. We aren't looking for cover to hide behind to do any monkey buisness, but yea I can see how that could be read in. Good point. Asking to not talk to anyone in a golf cart is kinda a little nose thumb to what I have always felt was a HUGE waste of money. I always brought a few bikes to BM. Golf carts and renting RV's for more money then it would cost to just buy them. Used to make me itch. Tens of thousands of dollars. Don't get me started.

Cardinal
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Post by Cardinal » Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:50 pm

A link to something that should have been posted along with their petition.

http://www.borg2.org/14Theses.html

Follow the link to enlightenment. It all makes sense now. The intent, the focus. It's not only a petition, there's so much more to it.

jimmason
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enlightenment

Post by jimmason » Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:04 pm

curious what you found so interesting or curious about the original 14 theses? did we pick the wrong ones to present originally? do you feel robbed of the full story . . . ;-) ?

people have been writing me about them with some frequency, so something must be in them that is resonating. it just seemed too much to present all at once. so we focussed on the art, as the art should be the focus. that is our stance. so we stood the peition on this stance.

j

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