Larry Harvey takes the bet . . . can you believe it?

Savior69 · Post by **Savior69** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:59 pm

dragonfly Jafe wrote:(and maybe the LHPO; http://www.lhpo.org)

Wow, that pipe organ looks awesome! Does that have a possiblity of coming to the playa, or are you just making a suggestion? Seems perfect for BM- Sound and Fire!

jimmason · Post by **jimmason** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:07 pm

yes, i discussed it with bastian this summer. he is interested. we are very interested in making this happen. it is an obvious one.

charlie and i proposed the lhpo to ladybee a couple years ago and suggested we could raise half the needed money with city shows before the desert. she said no cause it was not interactive and not thematic.

i just shook my head in disbelief.

thus the borg2.

j

mamasaid · Post by **mamasaid** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 3:44 pm

Who do I have to talk to to sit in on this jam session??!!
I play organ fer real, yo.

Madi

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:24 am

jimmason wrote:yes, i discussed it with bastian this summer. he is interested. we are very interested in making this happen. it is an obvious one.

charlie and i proposed the lhpo to ladybee a couple years ago and suggested we could raise half the needed money with city shows before the desert. she said no cause it was not interactive and not thematic.

i just shook my head in disbelief.

thus the borg2.

j

The Borg2 going after the LHPO is what finally got me off the fence and into your vision. It simply must get to BM one year. Theme or not.

But come to think of it, it would fit the theme this year - I can recall many a morning when my consciousness dawned to the sound (and feel) of a percussive pipe organ playing inside my head. The exhibit could be called "Conscious Hangover" or something like that.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:39 am

I remember an estimated cost of around $100,000 or so for that fire pipe organ thing, but I could be wrong.

LadyBeeSF · Post by **LadyBeeSF** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:37 am

I "blithely dismissed" the LHPO, Jim???

Nope, I looked through their site, thought it sounded great, but the cost of bringing this project to Burning Man was prohibitive....shipping a huge, heavy metal installation from Europe, in addition to flying the crew over, is beyond our costs. We try to spread the grants out to, usually, 30 projects. Funding the LHPO would have used more money than we've ever given to any single project, even in the unlikely event that Jim & co. raised half the cost. ( at 100K, that's 50K). I'm basing this assumption on the results of Chicken's fundraiser a few years back, for his own Burning Man project - which lost money. ''

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:46 am

Yes, I have read the list of logistical and equipment requirements for the LHPO team to perform. They are quite extensive, and $50,000-100,000 sounds about right.

But if shipping and logistics are the majority of the cost, perhaps a "homegrown" version can be created. This does not look particularly difficult, the LPHO site provides quite a bit of detail that can be gleaned...perhaps fewer octaves for starters? This could be used for years to come....maybe even performed elsewhere as a "fundraiser" for the Borg2.

LadyBeeSF · Post by **LadyBeeSF** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:06 pm

The premise of Borg2's idea is that the art they fund will be placed in their own territory. Why would Burning Man fund that art? We will fund art that gets placed all over the playa, as usual, but not in the Borg2 zone. It's their responsibililty to fund their art, period. So in fact artists do have to choose.

lillian69 · Post by **lillian69** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:40 pm

but lady bee, as you've said so many times, anyone can put their art anywhere they want. If I get funded by the Borg1, are you saying that I cannot put my art in the Borg2 if I so choose? It seems that the only person who's making any division here, is you, Lady Bee.

It seems as if the only person who has to choose, is you...

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:57 pm

Savior69 wrote:
dragonfly Jafe wrote:(and maybe the LHPO; http://www.lhpo.org
Wow, that pipe organ looks awesome! Does that have a possiblity of coming to the playa, or are you just making a suggestion? Seems perfect for BM- Sound and Fire!

HOLY MAMA!! If ever in Europe where that thing is having a show I'm there (LHPO for those who haven't clicked on the link...is for Large Hot Pipe Organ, twenty-some 10" dia 10-30 foot propane fired organ pipes, YOW)

Forget shipping it here, I wanna help build a Blackrock version!

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:01 am

lillian69 wrote:but lady bee, as you've said so many times, anyone can put their art anywhere they want. If I get funded by the Borg1, are you saying that I cannot put my art in the Borg2 if I so choose? It seems that the only person who's making any division here, is you, Lady Bee.

It seems as if the only person who has to choose, is you...

Looks like you are new to the eplaya, Lillian69. Welcome!

Actually it was Borg2 that requested they have their own, distinctive, separate space in which to stage the art they end up funding, to the exclusion of Project-funded art. So the division is just LadyBee and the rest of the Art team (yep, contrary to popular belief it's not just her and Larry, there's a whole group of volunteers that decide this stuff, too) anticipating that they will be able to acquiesce to Jim & Chicken's request for their own chunk o' playa.

Other artists have expressed similar dismay at feeling pressured to choose one side or the other. I encourage you to look at it less politically - the competition is merely a motivator to light a fire under all of those creative asses out there, regardless of what side of the virtual fence you may see yourself.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:04 am

Chicken John wrote: I think that alot of people on this eplaya thing are kinda grouchy and mean.

Some, but only a few compared to most boards. I just think they are a bit more argumentative here.

It was nice to meet a few of you. I hope all your dreams come true at BM this next year.

Kinda sucks because you had to be defensive around here and I have a feeling you are not really like that in person, could have been a good addition.[/quote]

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:02 am

I think the LHPO estimate included steel fabrication of the big pieces here (Reno/Sparks or wherever). Looked and sounded spectacular on the videotape I saw, but kind of stagey compared to that with which we're accustomed at bunringman.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:45 am

I have to agree with Bob on this one. I'm not trying to demean the idea, but when I looked at the BORG2 site I expected to find new ideas. What I found was that they seemed to intend to fund projects that appeared to already be complete, or substantially so, and on display elsewhere already. But maybe this is just the way it has been done in the past. Can't say that I really know.

GlowScreen · Post by **GlowScreen** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:04 am

LadyBeeSF wrote:The premise of Borg2's idea is that the art they fund will be placed in their own territory. Why would Burning Man fund that art? We will fund art that gets placed all over the playa, as usual, but not in the Borg2 zone. It's their responsibililty to fund their art, period. So in fact artists do have to choose.

LadyBee,

Thank you for making the point that I had been making for days, that we (the art makers) are being forced to choose sides. Many on this eplaya list don't understand that this problem exists.

Here in NYC some of us have decided to discuss this Borg1/Borg2 situation in January after the holiday madness. Hopefully we will have more information by then.

amy

LadyBeeSF · Post by **LadyBeeSF** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:16 am

"But if shipping and logistics are the majority of the cost, perhaps a "homegrown" version can be created. This does not look particularly difficult, the LPHO site provides quite a bit of detail that can be gleaned...perhaps fewer octaves for starters? "

NOw that's the kind of idea we would get behind, as opposed to funding the LHPO crew to come to the playa with their art. We do not fund high-profile artists (like Mathew Barney and Andy Goldsworthy) to show us their stuff on the playa - we try to build community via the art making process. We look for groups of people who will work together on a project.
In addition, we ask that the artists have attended Burning Man at least once so that they know exactly what sort of conditions they'll be up against. For example, DADARA from Amsterdam brought his Ship of Fools to the playa in 2002, and was not funded. He developed relationships with burners and proposed a project for 2003 that we funded - the Burning Greymen. His crew worked with people in Gerlach and with others they'd met on the playa the previous year.

lennyjones · Post by **lennyjones** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:23 am

Borg2 wants to:
Have it's own reserved space on the playa
Have reserved space for art
Raise it's own money
As a group decide who to grant the money
Follow the general safety rules of Borg1

Theme Camps want to:
Have their own reserved space on the playa
Have reserved space for art (within the camp)
Raise their own money
As a group decide what to spend the money on
Follow the general safety rules of Borg1

Maybe I'm missing something here (I often do...sorry), but what's the difference between
this planned Borg2 city and any large scale theme camp or village that we already have?

Lenny

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:42 am

Lenny,

The original intent of BORG2 was to have BORG1 adopt their proposal for funding and administration of the art approval and funding process. When that failed, which I have to assume they knew would happen, they dropped back to a compromise position. In this position they will operate in much the same way as any village would. It seems from my viewpoint that they are hoping to be a success and that this will cause the BORG1 to have to adopt this new strategy. They've gotten some pretty significant concessions from the LLC as well, which I think shows the willingness of the LLC to change.

If you haven't listened to the audio from their meeting last night, you should. It's here

From my perspective it seems that they have some good thoughts. Pushing the envelope to get people to look at what they do and why they do it is good. In the end I think this will be good for the event, one way or the other. The possibility exists that this will become divisive, but it also seems to me that the BORG2 folks recognize this and are attempting to remind the folks who want to be involved with them that this is about inclusion (but then they joke about making the city two parallel lines 3 miles long with BORG1 on one side and BORG2 on the other).

Speaking of that, from what I could glean from the audio and a pic I saw last night, it appears that BORG 2 will be located between 1pm and 2pm and that the city remains in pretty much the same shape as in past years.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:05 pm

it appears that BORG 2 will be located between 1pm and 2pm and that the city remains in pretty much the same shape as in past years.

Thats unfortunate because: it needs to be enlarged, camps/villages need to be spread out more, and BORG2 have a bigger slice.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:59 pm

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:23 pm

Bob wrote:It?

Yep, that one.

b00m3rang · Post by **b00m3rang** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:06 pm

jimmason wrote:jeeeezzzzz . . . the paranoia and zeal to find fault here is amazing.

If ever there were a pot calling the kettle black...

zzberlin · Post by **zzberlin** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:28 am

I can't believe there's no discussion about this here on the eplaya. The borg2 tribe is jumping with ideas. If you're interested in this topic, consider reading the borg2 tribe over on tribe.

Amy Shapiro, especially you. You have really good concerns.

harriet

III · Post by **III** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:56 pm

that's probably because tribe sucks worse than phpbb for actually holding a discussion.

but, since you bring it up here, and i need a impartial (more or less) second opinion, i'm going to continue the discussion.

i'm running for the borg2 council. i'm taking the original message to heart, and thinking that it's just about bringing new/different/better art to the playa, without any of the overhead the the llc imposes.

so, my platform is simply to redirect funds/nominate artists who show a greater than average sense of self reliance, as well as different art. along with this, i'm actively opposing any other involvement, such as mapping, building villages. i'm also opposed to real or perceived conflicts of interest. it seems pretty straight forward to me, and i think that my situation imparts a certain impartiality on the decisions.

some part of that platform, however, seems to have ticked off the originators of the project. i'm not sure what, but it's there.

so my question is: do i still run (since i'm pretty sure i can swing a seat - i'm bad at politics, but i know lots of people who don't share that afflictions) and try to be a voice of integrity even if it interferes with the founders vision, or do i let them set up a group that meets their ideals, and let it turn into a farcical mockery of what they were trying to improve upon? (i'm not sure that'll happen, but the evils not guarded against are bound to occur, sooner or later...)

so, to run, or not to? which is better for art, creativity, and community (not just at burning man, but in general) in the long run?

III · Post by **III** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:59 pm

huh - that came of a lot more conceited sounding than i meant it to be. i certainly don't see myself as a savior of the borg2, the event, or anything else. on the other hand, i'm willing to step up to the plate to do the work, and at least perform my own actions based on my principles. i think those are worthwhile principles, but i also think they may be at odds with what the b2 originators had in mind, and now i'm wondering if i'm once again trying to piggy back my own dreams and desires on someone elses ride.

Sensei · Post by **Sensei** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:03 pm

III wrote:... but i also think they may be at odds with what the b2 originators had in mind, and now i'm wondering if i'm once again trying to piggy back my own dreams and desires on someone elses ride.

Ok, let's just suppose that's true. Aren't they (b2) guilty of the same crime? I demand an eye for an eye...

III wrote:so, to run, or not to?"

Run.

GlowScreen · Post by **GlowScreen** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 6:19 am

zzberlin wrote:I can't believe there's no discussion about this here on the eplaya. The borg2 tribe is jumping with ideas. If you're interested in this topic, consider reading the borg2 tribe over on tribe.

Amy Shapiro, especially you. You have really good concerns.

harriet

I have been reading the Tribe info until the mega-corporation where I'm now sitting blocked my access. They filter my internet usage. It sucks.

There will probably be some kind of gathering in NYC in January regarding Borg2. We have discussed it on our list.

I'll be sure to post some feedback here about that meeting. Unless of course my mega corporate employer blocks my access to this site too.

Thanks for your support.

amy

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 6:57 am

zzberlin wrote:I can't believe there's no discussion about this here on the eplaya...

Lack of discussion on the eplaya surprises you?

I blame the olive-drab background.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:44 am

Bob wrote:
zzberlin wrote:I can't believe there's no discussion about this here on the eplaya...
Lack of discussion on the eplaya surprises you?

I blame the olive-drab background.

I blame the whole tone of these constant calls to liberate us, coming from outside agitators (aka in my reality: trolls.)

But then I'm a touchy fish.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:21 am

Then you like olive drabs? Talk about a successful conspiracy. The color scheme here was banned in most state correctional facilities as cruel and unusual. Join borg2 -- it'll make your eyes brighter and your coat fuller, Shirley.

Larry Harvey takes the bet . . . can you believe it?

lhpo

Re: lhpo

LHPO

No douple dipping

who has to choose?

Re: who has to choose?

Re: No douple dipping

LHPO

what'di miss?

Re: jeeeezzzzz pleaaasseeeee . . . ..