A virgin having doubts...

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
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Hatris
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A virgin having doubts...

Post by Hatris » Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:37 pm

I really want to attend the next BM in 2006 and meanwhile i try to read all I can about the BM, dreaming about it, thinking, imagining. But in all this thinking i come to doubts. And the biggest doubt i have is about the "economics" of the Burning Man... I read that one of the basis of the BM is the "no commerce" idea. Ok, cool, i really like it... Then i read in some posts that there is a common accepted gift-barter system used in the playa... And i say "isn't this a nonsense?" Correct me if i'm wrong... If I give you a gift you give me another in return... What if my gift was working hard all day to create my work of art in the playa? Isn't this the idea of burning man? Ok maybe not everyone will see my work of art but isn't this the idea behind the burning man?... I give to someone and this someone gives to others, making the community really a community and not a simple matter of I give you, and you give me (this sounds like a very primitve form of commerce...). Sorry for my bad english, i hope someone will resolve my doubts and will make me 100% enhusiast of coming there next year.
Thank you
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Mr.?
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Post by Mr.? » Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:47 pm

It's not for everyone that's for sure. What is it that you feel you need money for? You want to purchase a T-shirt or go out to dinner one night? Take plenty of water and hook up with someone with a camp. I know that I found someone to take my money in exchange for $%*@X!!!! and it was the shiat! Great little purple pills will cost $$$$.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy!

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Post by theCryptofishist » Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:49 pm

Hatris--for a newbie you have brains. You have managed to hit one of the central contridictions of the community right on your first post. Some people barter and some people gift and gifting your art to the community or your hard work to help set up someone else's camp count to most of the community.
Think of it this way. Gifts are from the heart, and it's very hard (and probably inadvisable) to open your heart to 35,000 people all at once. Even in BRC (and we do have a sprinkling of creeps, even if it is probably less than you'd get if you chose the 35,000 at random.) I say, attend. You'll learn about gifting even if you have to learn a thing or two about bartering. And decide to enjoy yourself and be open to learning about your experience.
One of the oft repeated tropes on this board is to advise people NOT to have expectations. Expectations get in the way of your experience. Expecting to have a pure experience will cause you to be dissapointed. Go and be open and take care of yourself.

And, I hope you wont be too dissapointed, but there is coffee for sale at the event--a fact that is much argued here.

Please excuse me if my english is too obscure or idiomatic--ask for clarification if you need to.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Hatris
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Post by Hatris » Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:59 pm

You are right Cryptofishist, i should attend and then i will see, but i read too much about bars and massages and fight thunderdomes and similar "services" and i read less about ART... (not that i'm against bars...or massages) and a bar is more like the "I GIVE YOU, YOU GIVE ME" that i really don't like.

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Post by theCryptofishist » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:07 pm

I'm not much of a drinker myself, but for a lot of people drink is an important part of the festival. (To take an anthropological view, intoxicants are often part of festivals and in this BM is no different.) However, in four years of attendence, I have had one sip of scotch and no other mind altering substances. It is not manditory. The bars are a part of the social scene, and the art's all over on many different scales.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Post by Dork » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:19 pm

I've gone 5 years without engaging in or being pressured to barter. It really is an optional part of the experience for the most part. Just bring what you need to survive and have fun plus some extra to share and you'll be ok.

Then again I don't really drink, so I probably missed a number of barter bars. Even if you do encounter one, it's completely up to you to go there or not. It's not like there's only one good activity to take part in at any given time!

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Post by blyslv » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:45 pm

You know how a map will have every single detail of an area of land on it? It is the same with all the stuff written about BurningMan. It is all 100% accurate and true.


HA HA, just kidding. Don't drink the kool-aid, don't read the literature. You want to build a wonderful peice of art and call it a gift to the community? Go for it! I'll check it out. Hell I'll even be a critic if you want (everyone else is). Someone wants some cheap-jack tchotcke for the piss tasting swill that they call a playa cocktail? Tell them to take a running leap, or better yet tell them to go soak their head and watch their confusion as they realize there is no water within miles.

Dogma is dead, creation is the key.
Fight for the fifth freedom!

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Post by bdeywoo » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:07 pm

Hatris I know where your comming from. Keep in mind these are obviously my opinions not fact. First I must dispell the "No Commerce" notion that there is. In reality thats a bunch of BS. There is commerce everywhere on the playa just not in the traditional sense. Much of the art has a cost to the participant/observer (one year we had to crawl on our hands and knees 100ft or so just to get into the room where the art was) but its never actual $ that is requested. Sometimes its a physical cost, sometimes a mental cost sometimes both. In reality just being out on the playa for an extended period of time is a cost for seeing what you do out there (besides the ticket).

Gifting ettiquet is really a personal thing. I've never gifted anyone and expected anything back. The way i see it if I have something I'd like you to have as a gift then you have already "paid" for it (ie earned it), be it by your work, time, personality or what ever you did that made me want to gift you, that was the payment. There are those who do "expect" when they gift but from my experience they are in the minority. I tend to stay away from ordering anything at most of the "bars" not because they want something for a drink (in most cases the drinks really are free) but because I'm a lush and like my alcohol and will drink them out of all they have then I'd feel horrible if they had no Jager left so I tend to just be self supporting with regard to drinks. But I do frequent them and accept what they are offering sometmes and rarely is there the uncomfortable (gee I wonder if I'm supposed to give anything) feeling.

While it may not really be a "no commerce" community in the strictest sense, it is a community and a damn good one. Most of the people I come into contact with out there have a genuine appreciation of the surroundings, themselves, and me. Most will go to great lengths to support/help you but like any group of people there are those who just use up every resource alloted to them with out bringing anything to the table. By and large though it is a community unlike any i have ever heard of, and a way of life (albeit for a limited amount of time) I was instantly addicted to. I agree with Cryptofishist, drop your expectations get a ticket and come see for yourself, the worst that will happen is you'll get a couple of days off work, at best you just may find everything your looking for and wouldnt that be a treat!

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Post by Lady V » Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:40 pm

2005 was my first burn, and I had some concerns, too. I did give some people mists from my mister and some frozen raspberries. When people gift you with something, you are not expected to immediately reciprocate (I got the sense from your post maybe that's what you thought was expected--it is not), or even to receive it.

The eplaya can be a little misleading, too. I see more inebriated, high people in my hometown on a Saturday night than I saw at Burning Man. Of course, I didn't hang out in the bars much, and I went to sleep around 1 or 2 in the morning. I was mostly interested in the art--I saw so very much art, and it is a bit Alice-in-Wonderland like--a completely different world that is hard to describe.

Burning Man is, as my love says, a Rorschach. You see in it what and who you are.

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Post by Syntonia » Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:01 pm

Sometimes the "art" is a lovely nipple reaching to the sun, a funny come-back at the porta-potty. Sometimes the "commerce" is verbalizing appreciation to the artist for the installation, word-of-mouth about a hot band. Sometimes the "gift" is drinking plenty of water on a hot day, helping a drunk person back to their camp. For 5 days I was awash with Serotonin, Dopamine high but not a glug of booze or smoke or hit did I indulge. Just the insomnia and hypersomnia, heat and moon and dust and colors and form, synesthesia and sound and overstimulation of the wonderous community that is BM. Rather than attempt to read about and "study" the experience at Black Rock, go and experience it! Joy,
Syntonia

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Post by Syntonia » Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:01 pm

Sometimes the "art" is a lovely nipples reaching to the sun, a funny come-back at the porta-potty. Sometimes the "commerce" is verbalizing appreciation to the artist for the installation, word-of-mouth about a hot band. Sometimes the "gift" is drinking plenty of water on a hot day, helping a drunk person back to their camp. Rather than attempt to read about and "study" the experience at Black Rock, go and experience it! Joy,
Syntonia

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Post by Lassen Forge » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:08 pm

And sometimes... your art isn't some installation or creation but what you do for the city and it's many inhabitants - being a jots-queen, or a dispatcher for ESD, or a lamplighter, or helping a bunch of fellow crazies pull off the ultimate theme Kamp, or writing for Piss-clear or helping Radio Free Burning Man be who they are. or working for the llc or whatever.

Or it could be something as striking as sitting in a plexiglass box through the event.

Or building the ultimate art car from that picture in your mind.

Or learning Poi and diong it next year.

Art is subjective, and it's not what others think of it, but what is inside the artist, that makes it art!

Hugs 2u,
bb sue

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Hatris
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Post by Hatris » Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:19 am

Hey, thank you all, these were really nice and confortating words, :-) I mean i was really afraid of dreaming about one thing, getting there and then feel really disapointed cause it was not what i dreamt about... But it seems i worried too much... haha. Hug to everybody and see you next year.

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Re: A virgin having doubts...

Post by ZaphodBurner » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:20 am

Hatris wrote:And the biggest doubt i have is about the "economics" of the Burning Man... I read that one of the basis of the BM is the "no commerce" idea. Ok, cool, i really like it... Then i read in some posts that there is a common accepted gift-barter system used in the playa... And i say "isn't this a nonsense?"
Welcome to peaceful anarchy, and also a nearly-ubiquitous off-playa misunderstanding.

The gift-barter system is what you make of it. If you show up with a thousand apples and want to trade an apple for a glass of beer or a shock in the ass with a cattle prod, odds are you can. But since there's no real need or desire for profit, there's no explicit economy. People just help each other out and share what they have because, as utopic-hippie as it sounds, it truly does seem to come around in ways one never expects.

People liked our rootbeer, so several times fresh pizza showed up. There was no expectation of "Fill my jug with rootbeer and we'll bring you a pizza", just "We really dug your rootbeer during the dust storm yesterday. Want a pizza?" "Cool! Want some root beer?"

The flipside of this is, you bring what you need to enjoy yourself there; if you make a million trinkets and figure you're barter them for anything you need, you probably can. But the adventure of finding what you need might not be worth the effort.

-c
"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

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Balanced Reciprocity

Post by gyre » Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:01 pm

I think the accurate term is balanced reciprocity. People give or do what they can and it balances out. Artists receive status and appreciation for what they do, or laughter. People are so generous you'll have to say no to most gifts, because so much is offered. Some gifts are so amazing all you can do is marvel.

With the variety of people, the only universal I see at burning man is whimsy, no small thing. And overwhelming choice.

I saw a tan kerchief with the burning man logo printed in one corner and in a very tiny clear line below it said,

"Here's your fucking gift!"

Funniest gift I saw. Anybody know where I can get one?
Seriously, I want one.

Anything Can Happen.
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It would be a shame if I had to resort to self-deception to preserve my faith in objective reality.

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Post by HughMungus » Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:46 pm

Sounds like you're worried about not having "enough to gift". Don't worry about it. 1. No one is obligated to gift. 2. Often someone's presence is gift enough. 3. If your presence is not gift enough, go to a different camp.
It's what you make it.

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Post by CLARKcon » Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:18 pm

Yeah, gifting is all about "s" and giggles- to give a gift just to see the enjoyment on the other person's face, and expecting nothing in return. Now, if there is something you see that you really want, that is the bartering part. Karma is a funny thing...a mission of mine at BM 04' was to see how many necklace/BM logo medallions I could get, but I never sought them. By Thursday, I had so many necklaces I had to take some off because they started choking me in my sleeping bag! Just bring something simple, heartfelt, and lots of them:)
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Post by HughMungus » Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:26 pm

CLARKcon wrote:Yeah, gifting is all about "s" and giggles- to give a gift just to see the enjoyment on the other person's face, and expecting nothing in return. Now, if there is something you see that you really want, that is the bartering part. Karma is a funny thing...a mission of mine at BM 04' was to see how many necklace/BM logo medallions I could get, but I never sought them. By Thursday, I had so many necklaces I had to take some off because they started choking me in my sleeping bag! Just bring something simple, heartfelt, and lots of them:)
Not exactly (to me, anyway). You give a gift to give a gift and don't worry about how they react. If you do worry about how they react you might be disappointed.

I disagree on bringing anything if you're a virgin. Virgins should have no pressure. For most people, being a virgin is a gift (especially if their answer to "So, what do you think?" is "I LOVE IT").

My $.02
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Post by blyslv » Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:22 pm

Hatris wrote: a bar is more like the "I GIVE YOU, YOU GIVE ME" that i really don't like.
Huh. Don't know where you got that impression, seeing as you've never been.

In any event, since you asked my advice is to think less and create more.

Make your own decisions and expect nobody to spell out anything for you.
Fight for the fifth freedom!

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Post by stargirl » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:41 pm

[quote]I disagree on bringing anything if you're a virgin. Virgins should have no pressure. For most people, being a virgin is a gift (especially if their answer to "So, what do you think?" is "I LOVE IT").

Thank you, HughMungus. Your comment is a gift! 2005 was my first burn and I was worried about what I could offer to the event as a newbie. I realize now that my gift was my enthusiasm, my smile, and my highly developed MOOP sensor (thanks to 5 years of teaching). The gifts bestowed upon me with no expectation are too numerous to name, but include a fabulous BM clay medallion necklace that I found on my bike after the Temple Burn, nourishing noodles, a great shower, and "the best rootbeer on the planet." Thank you, Burners. You (we) are wonderful people.

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Post by Chai Guy » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:42 pm

Just to reinforce what has already been said, there really isn't much of a barter economy there. I've never been refused a drink or anything else because I didn't have a "gift".

I give out several thousand cups of chai tea every year, and last year I don't think I even took home 5 "gifts".

"MOST" people don't have tangible gifts (like stickers/necklaces, etc).

I think the whole gifting thing has been blown way out of sorts.

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Post by HughMungus » Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:28 pm

stargirl wrote:Thank you, HughMungus. Your comment is a gift! 2005 was my first burn and I was worried about what I could offer to the event as a newbie. I realize now that my gift was my enthusiasm, my smile, and my highly developed MOOP sensor (thanks to 5 years of teaching). The gifts bestowed upon me with no expectation are too numerous to name, but include a fabulous BM clay medallion necklace that I found on my bike after the Temple Burn, nourishing noodles, a great shower, and "the best rootbeer on the planet." Thank you, Burners. You (we) are wonderful people.
That reminds me of something I'd forgotten. On the way to '05 we were on our way into the supermarket and I saw what was obviously a burner vehicle so I put a pair of necklaces on the windshield wipers. I thought, "Who knows, maybe they just had a long, crappy, angry ride from wherever and this will give them a little boost." And of course they could have thrown them away. That's the thing -- I don't care because I did what I could and moved on.

That said, I can readily understand the "don't gift me" contingient (which I think surfaced either right before or after '05). People were getting tired of getting "gifts" that were some store-bought junk that would just be thrown away anyway (after having to pretend to be thankful, ugh). The best gifts are the ones you create whether it's a smile, a cool costume, a cool camp, cool lights, great drinks, a joke, a song, whatever as long as it's from your heart. And like I said, just your presenence can be enough. Most public camps do what they do so they can gift a comfy chair or cold drink to you.

Just come as you are, be yourself, have a good time and whatever is in you will come out.
It's what you make it.

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Post by HughMungus » Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:30 pm

Chai Guy wrote:I think the whole gifting thing has been blown way out of sorts.
Yeah, I cringe every time I hear Harvey say, "It's not a barter economy, it's a gift economy." UGH.
It's what you make it.

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Post by Gravity Mike » Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:57 pm

Chai Guy wrote:
"MOST" people don't have tangible gifts (like stickers/necklaces, etc).

I think the whole gifting thing has been blown way out of sorts.
Not only that, plenty of folks are put off by 'trinket' gifts and don't want them. Participate at the level you're comfortable, first time or not. Gifting is just another 'art' you have the option to participate in.

And for gifting vs. barter commerce: I think the gifting idea is more like 'what goes around comes around,' whereas bartering is a direct exchange for service. With gifting, you might help somebody out (one year I helped somebody with a bike headlamp repair just before the burn), and later, somebody will help you out = indirect exchange.

Zaphod Burner called BM 'peaceful anarchy,' and it really is. There are more fights at a 5000 person rock concert than there are at a 30,000 person BM event - by a wide margin if you ask me. Yet the diversity of people is greater than you'll find at most concerts - a formula for more conflict (and last substantially longer). It kinda makes me all warm and fuzzy inside just thinking out it!

Gravity

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Bar Manners

Post by Biff the Paperboy » Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:02 pm

Saturday Night 2005
Wandering around after the burn
Found the bar at Bad Idea Theatre.
Fed the bartender and surrounding patrons from my flask of Bushmills.
Even wandered back to camp for a refill.

Were they serving something?
Barter?

I like to drink with my friends.
I come with drink.
Prepared to find friends.

It's one of the things about Black Rock City.
It's what we make it.

We want to live in that world?
WE have to be those people.

See you all back home.

biff the paperboy

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Post by Starjack » Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:21 pm

Last year (2005) was my first Burn and I saw no evidence of Bartering... not surprised (if) it happens. I just didn't see it. People offered me gifts, and my gifts were made through the Kazbus, as I brought various treats and helped some with that party bus. Yeah, there was a lot of drinking on that bus -- not my scene, really, but I was there with friends for my first burn and there were times I was totally blissed out giving time,energy, treats, being a part of it all. I don't drink or do any drugs, but enjoyed helping others have a good time in their way; and helping was my way of having a good time.

Whatever trinkets or treats you take and share with others as you like will be welcome. Sometimes people gave me things I didn't much care for having myself, but I appreciated their generosity, and passed the gifts on to other people. When people offered me drugs or booze to consume on the spot, I just thanked them in appreciation for the offer, though I couldn't eccept it.

The games and sports and bars are also a way of gifting, and a kind of art. I loved the giant see-saw, which was gift, game, and art; the Happy New Day party which every midnight reminded us of how arbitrary markers offer us fresh beginnings and celebrations.

And if you go with a full heart, it doesn't really matter if your hands are empty. We all go with everything we need and discover how much we have to share. It is truly amazing.

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Post by mars » Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:10 pm

One thing about Burning Man is that it's everything.

If you don't like what you see in one direction, you can turn around and have a completely different experience in another direction.

So anything you hear, good or bad, is there, and not there. Burning Man is huge enough to contain it all.

I won't encourage you to come because that's your own decision to make, but I will say I'm sorry I let my own fears postpone my arrival by several years and that's one of the biggest regrets of my life so far.


///////////////////
Live as if everyone loves you and thinks you look great. Dance as if no one is watching.

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Post by ThePikey » Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:33 pm

Mars is certainly right on this point. Yeah, there may be some discouraging things out there. Sometimes there's an actually good reason why things are that way and you say 'oh, okay', sometimes not. But there's also tons of profoundly cool art to see, things to do, and people to meet. Whatever it is that you *expect* to find... yeah, you can probably find it because there's a little bit of everything out on the playa. But there are also vast numbers of wonderful things you will never have imagined. And once you've attended, you will just sort of intrinsically understand that. There's an old saw which states, "If you've never been to Burning Man, words cannot describe it. If you have been to Burning Man, words are not necessary."

As far as gifting/barter...
If you can perform, you can make that your gift.
If you can make art or design costumes, that can be your gift.
If you can work and help set up and run a campsite, or the infrastructure for the event, or perform some of the necessary chores to make this thing happen... that can be your gift.
Whatever you do, it does not have to some some tangible thing you just hand over to people. But you can certainly go that route as well.

For my first year all I really did as a 'gift' was to bring eggs 'n' sausage out to the playa. And one morning when I got up first I started cookin' and was able to greet my campmates with omelets when they woke up. For a first-timer, "Getting It" frequently is enough of a gift. Because the people you're with get to see it all again through your eyes, and are reminded of just how wonderful all this craziness really is...

(And once you "Get It" you can come back next year with a more tangible idea of how you can best contribute. So don't worry, mkay?)

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