Muslims at Burning Man?

[Starjack]

Starjack just so you know I have as much disdain for all religions. I've been raised to believe strongly in my own ability to rationally examine the world I live in, and tend to see religious followers as misguided idiots that need an adult version of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny to fill their uneducated empty heads. I mean, seriously, anybody who can rationalize the existence of magical cloud beings that speak to humans has got to be an uneducated empty headed idiot. And if somebody reading this doesn't like being called stupid, then don't be stupid!!

I'm not sure whether it really was Confucius who said it, but as the old saw goes, the truly wise man understands how little he really knows. If it's any consolation, I don't believe in the infantile caricature of God that you describe either. Nor do I believe in making sweeping pronouncements about matters I haven't studied in some depth.

But I do believe in the wisdom of etiquette expert Judith Martin ("Miss Manners") who would somehow manage a very wry way to point out that one of the very few things ruder than insulting another's religion and calling people stupid, is to point out how rude they are in doing so. And I do wish that more people, especially myself, were as smart as she.

Assalaamu Aleikum
(Peace be with you)

[Starjack]

The names for the sciences, and the words we use for classification come from the Greek, and Latin primarily. We have few of these words in the languages of the jews, the christians, or the muslims....

The Reformation and the Renaissance saw the waning of the influence of the Church and the beginnings of the Age of Reason. Man flourished.

Latin was THE common language of educated western Europeans until just a few centuries ago, so of course it it the primary language of our intellectual history. The wisdom of the Greeks was destroyed by early Christians who plunged Europe into the dark ages, but preserved by Muslim scholars who expanded upon that wisdom. The philosophies of ibn-Khaldun, ibn-Sina, and many other Muslim scholars were translated by Andalusian Jews into Latin making the wisdom of Greece and Arabia available to Europe and starting the Renaissance. Without Muslims preserving that Greek philosophy and science in an expanding discussion, it would have been lost to Europe forever.

Assalamu Aleikum

[skygod]

Youre right, Starjack
They saved the ancient greek manuscripts. Early Islam was tolerant of all wisdom.
And your right Bob, the black stone is a meteorite. If a 5000 year old building with a meteorite embedded in its wall doessnt give you happiness, then there just is no happiness for you!

[Isotopia]

your message about moderate Islamics.

Not very religious myself. Was kicked out of my church a while back - if you can imagine imagine that.

I think what rankles me the most in this latest my-faith-is-superior-to-yours debate (ie 'shit flinging') that's taking place in/on many American blogs, late night TV shows and hack 'news' is the smarmy, condescending nature of the arguments being drug around. Venues such as the Bill O'Reilley's proto-fascist indoctrination machine being a prime example. That it seems to actually to provide some smug level of comfort - especially for folks in the US - to assign religious fanaticism the mantle of what's 'normal' in a part of the world where most can't even find on a fucking map. A good number don't seem to be willing to try to understand the intricacies, history, politics, etc. of what's going on other than accepting as gospel what's being spoon fed to them by the TV that vomits into their living room every night.

How outraged do you think the majority of Christians would feel if reportage and general perceptions about their religion throughout the world continually focused on Fred Phelps and his band of militant knuckle-draggers as being the standard bearer for a religion practiced by hundreds of millions of people. I think most Christians would be pissing themselves with fury and disgust.

Yeh, I think most would be pretty fucking pissed off. In a ideal world more people like the original poster here would step up to the plate and make an earnest attempt to inform rather than foam with rage and brand with sweeping stereotypes even in the face of innane, intellectually crippled posts like Moisture Pup and Naken (eplaya's newest little Neanderthal.)

[HughMungus]

I had naively assumed that the live and let live, open-hearted ideals espoused at Burning Man would be taken more to heart and hoped that the discussion here would largely include people interested in meeting together as Muslims and people who might be interested in learning more about Islam. Of course there are people who will not be at all interested or would rather avoid our religion specifially or any religion generally. they are welcome to those choices -- and surely most who do will silently go about their own business and leave us to ours -- but then what is the point in being insulting and hostile as some here have chosen to do?

No, you were right about Burning Man and ePlaya. Most of us do live and let live and we mind our own business. The ones who stay stupid shit go on my ignore list.

Indeed the tone of many of these messages would encourage other Muslims to stay silent and not get involved in this discussion... Who needs the bother?

Agreed. Sorry that your thread got derailed. The best thing to do with those who offered their opinion without being asked for it is to ignore them. I put those people on my ignore list.

Best of luck. Spread the word and I'm sure you'll get something together.

[Badger]

The best thing to do with those who offered their opinion without being asked for it is to ignore them.

Without being asked? Then what's the point of having any thread at all. To reduce your point down to the lowest common denominator is to suggest (it seems) that people should ONLY communicate via private message. I'm not following your logic here Hugh.

Your point just seems contrarian to what I've always understood a BBS to be about.

[Eric]

As I read this thread it seems to me that the voice of tolerance and understanding has been coming from the "religious" side (mainly Starjack & myself) and the voice of intolerance been coming from the "other" side. (mainly MoisturePup, though Lurker has made some ...interesting... comments against Muslims)

Their posts are showing a fundamentalism no better than those religious people they seem to dislike so much. Ignoring or dismissing any argument that doesn't take their viewpoint- dismissing one of the greatest theoretical minds in history because he didn't have a theology degree????- without apparently actually bothering to read them, and accusing Starjack of not being willing to have a discussion while dismissing out of hand everything he and I say as unworthy.

This is as valid an argument as Christians picketing a movie they haven't seen. It also would explain why you continue to insist that being religious means we have to believe in "cloud people"- I certainly don't, and Starjack has stated he doesn't either. I also don't ignore philosophy just because it was written a long time ago- your argument would invalidate Aristotle and Plato as well as the compilers of the Torah and the Christian Testament. MoisturePup disregards Einstein since you apparently need to have a theology degree to discuss religion, which puts me out of this conversation, and I assume by his own rules himself as well.

He also twists my discussion of Stalin- he was an atheist through and through. Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge were atheists. The leaders of the "Cultural Revolution" in China were atheist- those were rampaging mobs of atheists attacking people and destroying their lives. They sure as hell (oops, sorry, religious reference- sure as the sun shines?) killed millions and millions of people without having to fall back on religion. People who follow your apparent beliefs killed tens of millions. Yet you claim some sort of moral authority over people who follow a religion?

Your fundamentalism is as bad as the worst extremist: any argument that doesn't fit your viewpoint is ignored or misstated, anyone who doesn't share your point of view is "weak minded" or a "fool", your way is the only right way.

I don't remember either Starjack or myself ever saying or even insinuating that you are a fool for not having our exact (and different) beliefs, and I personally know I would never do so. My path works for me, yours works for you. Who gets to decide which is the right one for them- that person, or you? If that decision maker is you, please explain to me how that is any different than the Christian extremists who forced the Jews to convert or face exile and even death, or the Muslim extremists who attack other Muslim sects, or the atheist Communists who forcibly shaved the beards of Orthodox priests and turned their churches into stables. Intolerance is intolerance, no matter who it comes from. Period.

I haven't seen any posts from the religious side insult those who are not religious, yet every one of your posts blatently insults us. To me insulting the other side is a sure sign of a fundamentalist attitude, and a sign that you don't actually have arguments for me to understand. You don't believe in anything you can't see or feel- got it. So how do you explain something like "dark matter" that exists only in theory but hasn't been proven it exists. Is it okay to believe in something theoretical because a scientist said it? Wait- Einstein was a scientist and you already said his arguments about religion didn't matter, and I can't think of anything more theoretical than religion and dark matter.

Don't think I am insulting atheism. I have had wonderful discussions with a very good friend who's a life-long atheist. He however doesn't seem to need to insult me to get his point across (nor I him), or to be so blinded by his beliefs that he can't allow me mine, just as I have no problem with him following his own path. (I apologize if this appears to be an insult to you, it is not intended as one)

Think about the arguments you've present in this thread, and picture them coming out of the mouths of one of the religious extremists you so despise. Suggesting we kill 900 million people to get some theoretical 100 million who hate us??? Killing ten innocent people (your words) for every one who might- might- want to do us harm? This is the voice of reason? To me this thinking explains why we are so hated in the Middle East. Maybe you'll understand how these "arguments" you present sound to me: hate-filled and intolerant of differing viewpoints. I've taken the time to read and process your words- do you even bother to read ours?

I don't intend to change the way you think, or even assume I have the power to do so. I do however want you to understand why your input in this discussion is so blindly one-sided as to be useless to educate me on your thoughts or philosophy, or even make me think for a second that I should drop my beliefs. I have presented historical facts, links to articles that further explain where I am coming from, even a book to help people understand that there are in fact moderate Muslims. I have defended a faith that is not even mine, because I firmly believe that everyone has the right to choose their own path, and that none are less valid than others. I may not agree with them, and may even be utterly opposed to their teachings, but I cannot ever find myself making a blanket statement about other peoples choices, or telling the rest of the world they are wrong for not believing my way. I may fight against those beliefs being forced on others, but I never would insult a person just because they made that choice freely, no matter how little I understand that decision.

MoisturePup however has said that I need to believe his way because he says so, or I'm an idiot. He has stated that anyone not following his beliefs is not rational, and has even said "You, however, have not yet offered one single piece of evidence that contradicts my statement to the effect that people who believe in religion are weak minded." yet blithly disregards anything I present that counters that opinion. Do my posts really read to you as coming from someone who is weak-minded?

You're not offering a conversation, you're giving me a command. That's not "Radical Inclusion", that's extremism, just without the violence.

I am glad that the voice of reason is finally starting to show up in this thread (BBSue, Isotopia- as the voice of reason no less!, Kinetic being willing and interested in learning, Skygod and HughMungus and all the rest for letting Starjack know that intolerance is not the true voice of the playa anymore than it's the true voice of Islam)

[Bob]

What a steaming pile of camel dung.

I think the OP already got a fair answer to his/her query -- post a note at Playa Info. Done.

As much as weddings, hippie spirituality, and religious anything absolutely repels me wrt Burning Man, it would be as stupid to expect none of this bullshit at the event as it would be to assume that everybody responding to such a thread on the eplaya would be saints about it, given the current political climate.

I hate all of you.

[HughMungus]

The best thing to do with those who offered their opinion without being asked for it is to ignore them.

Without being asked? Then what's the point of having any thread at all. To reduce your point down to the lowest common denominator is to suggest (it seems) that people should ONLY communicate via private message. I'm not following your logic here Hugh.

Your point just seems contrarian to what I've always understood a BBS to be about.

I said he should ignore them. If someone offers their opinion on whatever I've posted and I think it's stupid/irrelevant/ignorant/whatever, I ignore it. That's anyone's perrogative. The reason I said that to the OP in particular is because I just felt that the best thing to do to keep his thread from drifting away was to ignore those who weren't posting based on his thread topic. He asked about something very particular, not, opinions on Islam. If they want to argue religion, they can start their own thread. For example, earlier in this very thread I wanted to learn more about atheism so I started my own thread about that.

[Kinetic IV]

So why are you on this board? If you're not going to open your mind to opposing points of view, why bother posting here? You expect us to read your posts and not comment?

That's just fucked up.

For me everytime I wall myself off from the outside world and opposing points of view I feel it weakens me. I'm stronger when I know the opposing points of view as they help me strengthen my arguments and reinforce my beliefs. Maybe I'm an isolated case or something...but ignoring people in the end seems to hurt me more than help.

I know that didn't come out the best but I hope it gets my point across.

[naken]

In regards,to lots of input about religeon,i will now tell you what has happened to me.In 1973 i was single an young an became attached to the Jesus freaks movement,a non religeous relationship with you know who .It felt good,is this enough.In 1979 i had problems with my neck an the pain would disable me for days at a time,i sought prayer an healing,my conditioned continued,i continued my faith,praying for others even while i was in pain.3 years later i was at a service to support a healing ministry,an they asked to pray for anyone with neck problems ,my wife nudged me to go up front.about 20 went foreward,the next thing i remember is getting up off the carpet.I had been what is called slain in the spirit,In the name of Jesus.I am 56 now ,the pain has never returned.I am healed in the name of Jesus,Not church or religeon.Thankyou

[Kinetic IV]

Having been baptized and spending many years as an Apostolic Pentecostal I saw many "healings" like the one you described. The person "healed" was quick to claim that "Jesus" did it and the Reverend was quick to reinforce that belief.

At the time I was an impressionable teenager stuck in the Missouri Ozarks that was doing good to have access to a library let alone other sources of information. Things like this and the mass media spoonfed me info and I lapped it up without question...so things like the miracle healings of people with back problems didn't even gain a second thought from me.

Fast forward 20+ years and it's a different story. The medical conditions of myself and my family have sent me down many paths looking for answers. The internet along with consultations with many different specialists in several different fields has changed my POV substantially on the idea of "healing" and it also caused me to step back and look at those teenage experiences and things that I witnessed. To be blunt I think what I saw was really a manifestation of "Patient, heal thyself". The mind has powerful ways of influencing our health and well being...and there's research being done to dig deeper and deeper into it's abilities to clear up chronic conditions. In the case of the healing I saw going on I now think that it wasn't "Jesus" at work, it was simply the patient themselves figuring out the mental locks and unlocking the power to heal themselves.

I'm writing this fully expecting an all out frontal attack on my idea by our resident medical / scientific guy and my online arch-enemy so to speak. Anytime I post anything medical I expect the flak cannons to start up so bring it on. But that being said I still feel that this so called religious healing is more mental mindfucking going on by religious "leaders" who are riding the coattails of the person's own "healing" process and claiming it to be some miraculous work so they can persuade the flock to cough up the cash to continue Jesus's good work. Or in other words it's all a bunch of bullshit. You can get that same type of healing while being inspired in many other ways. You can get there through sheer willpower...you don't need some man of the cloth there to lay hands on you to initialize this miracle healing process. It's all within. You just gotta learn how to play with the locks and try playing safecracker to get to the good stuff.

The power...is in you. Not in some supernatural being who lives in the sky somewhere. In my sky the only thing up there are 767's, birds, air, clouds, lightning, and sprites. No supernaturals. Sorry. But as my previous posts should indicate, I clearly keep looking...just in case I did miss something. Each religion has it's mysteries that if unlocked may hold an answer. It's also fascinating to look into each one if for nothing else than to understand the historical significance of it and how it plays into today's political issues. That's why I'm looking at Islam...I seek to understand...and to make sure I didn't miss anything that might change my current mindset on religion in general.

</soapbox>

[skygod]

The power...is in you. Not in some supernatural being who lives in the sky somewhere.

The kingdom of heaven lies within you.

[lurker]

I have said some 'interesting' things, no?

But I have also made it clear that Burning Man would welcome Muslims expressing their faith on the playa. I have tried to make it plain that I would as well.

But that doesn't come across too well.

And that's because I refuse to take 'moderate' muslims at their word. I have no incentive to.

While Starjack says that the extremists get a lot of press--he completely ignores the fact that the 'extremists' control Islamic media. Gary Bussey is going to be in a movie wherein Jews steal Muslims' organs--a mainstream movie in the Middle East. There are television shows about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion--again , mainstream. All the 'peaceful' Muslims living quiet lives are watching these things--and making it profitable to produce them.

They may be quiet, but they're not 'peaceful' in any sense that we'd understand the word.

If Starjack is indeed a moderate, a moderate in the sense that he does not wish the west ill, then he is a fringe element.

And he, who wishes to be welcomed among us, happily affirms that we would not be welcome among Muslims, taking the pilgimage to Mecca.

There is a horrible disconnect between our two worlds, a disconnect that leaves bloodied bodies every time the disparate worlds come into contact.

And I favor mine over Starjack's.

Mine will alow and embrace hearing the muezzins issuing their call to prayer. Mine will allow Christmas lights, Chanukah menorahs, bonfires on Samhain and Satanic orgies on Walpurgisnacht. Mine will allow people like Moisturepup to call the faithful 'feebleminded', it will allow Jiffy Lube to devise new and more obscene signage(I DID love that sign)

Starjack's won't.

He may smile and have fun in the dust. He might be a great guy--he sounds like one. But what we are does not exist in Islam. He knows this. It may not be in his heart, personally, but he knows that it lurks behind him.

[Isotopia]

I had been what is called slain in the spirit

Given the blanket stereotype you wrote about Muslims a few posts back I'd add that intellect suffered an almost mortal blow as well.

In the name of Jesus.I am 56 now ,the pain has never returned.I am healed in the name of Jesus,Not church or religeon.

While you're at it you might try getting your buddy Jesus on the horn and ask him to deliver you from your sweeping statements damning an entire religious culture based on a small group of fundamentalist radicals.

[HughMungus]

So why are you on this board? If you're not going to open your mind to opposing points of view, why bother posting here? You expect us to read your posts and not comment?

That's just fucked up.

For me everytime I wall myself off from the outside world and opposing points of view I feel it weakens me. I'm stronger when I know the opposing points of view as they help me strengthen my arguments and reinforce my beliefs. Maybe I'm an isolated case or something...but ignoring people in the end seems to hurt me more than help.

I know that didn't come out the best but I hope it gets my point across.

You are getting your point across. I think you're applying your concept of bulletin boards to all posts on all boards. If I ask, "How do I get to Burning Man" and a bunch of people offer me their opinion on Burning Man, I'd be best advised to ignore the opinions (because perhaps I have already formed my own opinion and am not looking for a new one right now).

[Starjack]

I put out a simple invitation to other Muslims to join in prayer, having no idea that it would open such a Pandora's box of venom and arrogance.

Thanks to Eric and Skygod for their support, and to all the others who made friendly questions and comments.

Sure... if you want to trash religion in general or mine in particular, or discuss your own experiences with christian sects, there's room to do that -- but please, in another string.

I had started writing a response to Lurker's bizarre and contradictory allegations, (After suggesting the mass slaughter of Muslims in order to weed out the extremists, he says we're all welcome (???) but then declaring his own writing interesting he says that he doesn't credit anything I might say, so why would I bother saying anything to him?

I've participated in just about all those things he says I wouldn't allow, although Wiccans on Walpurgisnacht, not Satanists.... I think Satanism hangs on an unsupportable paradox, but then one could say the same of just about any religion. I've known some very nice Satanists -- had one for a roommate -- and, as the Qur'an demands, respect anyone's right to practice peaceably their own religion, including atheism. And the only thing at Juffy Lube that really bothers me are heterosexual voyeurs. It's a play space for men, not a freak show. (Just as the Hajj is a pilgrimage for the faithful, not a tourist event.)

To the person who asked why more Muslims don't speak up here... I hope you can see your answer in all this bigotry.

This has gotten so far from what I wanted it to be, I'm out of here; see no point in continuing.

Oh, and if anybody really wants to make the Hajj, the fact is that anyone can. Start by going to a Mosque and making a sincere profession of faith.

And if anyone wants to join me in prayer at Burning Man I remain available by private e-mail.

Assalaamu Aliekum
(Peace be with all of you)

[HughMungus]

Where are the moderators when you really need them.

[MoisturePup]

But I do believe in the wisdom of etiquette expert Judith Martin ("Miss Manners") who would somehow manage a very wry way to point out that one of the very few things ruder than insulting another's religion and calling people stupid, is to point out how rude they are in doing so. And I do wish that more people, especially myself, were as smart as she.

You reminded me of a story from my childhood.

My mother, always an annoying snob about manners, was all too fond of quoting Miss Manners as though she were some sort of divine prophet. One year at a very informal Thanksgiving dinner my mother halted all conversation at the table to chastise me about which hand I was using for the knife (she would insist on picking up your knife with the left, switch the fork and knife in each hand, cut the meat with right hand, switch the fork and knife again, put the knife down, and then eat the slice of meat, repeat method.) "According to Miss Manners you are using the wrong hand to cut with," she said as all conversation ceased at the table and every eye in the room fell upon the knife mid saw in my left hand.

I looked back at my mother and responded, "I'd like to see which hand she'd use if both of her arms were missing." Everybody then laughed at my mother. Her parents-in-law, my brother, my father.

She never brought up that stupid woman and her shallow pursuit of ettiquette ever again.

What does this have to do with you? Nothing. I just wonder what Miss Manners would say were she held by a jihadist that had a machette at her neck.

[spectabillis]

Where are the moderators when you really need them.

i try to stay out of political things, that and religion are a dangerous mix. but they are also very serious things that people are passionate about. it helps to remind people of a difference between what someone is saying, and how they are saying it, but people also dont take others seriously if they degenerate into name calling and such...

[HughMungus]

Where are the moderators when you really need them.

i try to stay out of political things, that and religion are a dangerous mix. but they are also very serious things that people are passionate about. it helps to remind people of a difference between what someone is saying, and how they are saying it, but people also dont take others seriously if they degenerate into name calling and such...

I just thought it was odd that you'd complain so much about thread drift in your own thread but say nothing in this one, particularly when it devolved into an attack on someone else's religious belief when no opinions were solicited and resulted in the OP leaving the board in despair. Yet, if someone doesn't say "Please" to a moderator, everyone gets their panties in a bunch. Odd.

[spectabillis]

there is nothing wrong with an op asking certain things in a topic they create to discuss something. you just cant get people to listen very well, and as this person has found out - its easier to just leave. that should say something more about how the people on this board act, more than what a moderator does or does not do. dont look to a moderator to always correct fucked up behavior without the people taking some responsibility on themselves for what they say and do.

[HughMungus]

there is nothing wrong with an op asking certain things in a topic they create to discuss something. you just cant get people to listen very well, and as this person has found out - its easier to just leave. that should say something more about how the people on this board act, more than what a moderator does or does not do. dont look to a moderator to always correct fucked up behavior without the people taking some responsibility on themselves for what they say and do.

So it's OK to attack someone else's religious belief here?

[Kinetic IV]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Before slamming the mods go back and read up on their history...then come back and argue.

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... 06&start=0

SB's doing exactly what people expected the moderators to do from day one, IMHO. Not that the IMHO part means anything.

[spectabillis]

tell you what, if you still dont get it you can always bring it up in the feedback areas of case studies or moderator discussion, just like everyone else.

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Ya know Jeffrey Dahlmer was a Christian, using your line of thinking all Christians are evil i guess

.

Christian extremists are not the main body of Christianity--there are no violent mobs of Christians roaming the streets. And when some nut commits an atrocity, and claims that they did it in the name of Christ or God or Yahweh, there is no huge Christian upwelling of support.

Sadly those days are gone- only kidding!

But that isn't to say that those actions didn't take place. In fact they did and it happened all the way into the nineteenth century in western culture. Today, they continue regularly in Indonesia. I’m not pointing the fault at just Christians or Muslims but as far as my studies of theology, it has always been prevalent among followers of monotheism. Ancient didn’t fight wars based on religion, but on conquering kingdoms and lands for their wealth. We Hellene believed it to be an offense against the Gods to even attack places of worship of other Gods. We even had temples dedicated to the Unknown God! In our world, a religious person is one that accepts all Gods as good and strives to be as good as the Gods are. In that manner, I find monotheists to be religiously superficial in that respect and to be Godless because of that.

Where in the Universe is there only one of anything? No where, unless that being or that entity is endangered and the last of its kind! I am not speaking of the Universal consciousness of which to us is the interaction of Gods which act as one.

I am thinking that monotheism parallels the development of the sciences, and the idea that some things are more true than other things.
Correct me if Im wrong!

You are on the right track, but even science is broken up into many areas of study.

I am a little dissapointed in the degenaration of this thread. (And I haven't read it all) I"m sorry it became muslim bashing. My thought was that those sorts of fundamentalists--of any flavor--weren't going to attend the event anyway, so why worry.

Do be afraid Cryptofishist I’m here to even out the score all things find equilibrium in nature. And one great prophet said, “forgive them father for they know not of what they do!” You will all be forgiven including Jeffrey.

The power...is in you. Not in some supernatural being who lives in the sky somewhere. In my sky the only thing up there are 767's, birds, air, clouds, lightning, and sprites. No supernaturals. Sorry.

That's where the aliens are! The immortals can be anywhere, but then again so can the aliens. Just don't be paranoid about!

Each religion has it's mysteries that if unlocked may hold an answer. It's also fascinating to look into each one if for nothing else than to understand the historical significance of it and how it plays into today's political issues.
</soapbox>

The answers are hidden as though they put there purposely. And, as I have stated before, if you want to know who and what about a group of people, you must study their religion.

If those groups wish to hold congregations on the playa, let them. As far as bringing my religious beliefs there, I don't have to. Just by having fun and sharing that with others is a religious experience, though we call it the Dionysian Festival.

AIIZ

[MoisturePup]

*kick*

ow, I stubbed my toe.

Now, where were we...

That's right... nobody ever answered me with what Miss Manners were to do if a religious zealot had her tied to a dipping pole to find out if she were a witch, or if a jihadist had a bayonnet at her throat....

Anybody?

[skygod]

You ask the tough questions Mr. Pup.
We may find out soon enuff.
If Jewish extremists manage to assault the Temple Mount and damage the Al Aqsa mosque.
Well then Miss Manners might start WW3.
IMO.
Jesus wept.

[MoisturePup]

You ask the tough questions Mr. Pup.
We may find out soon enuff.
If Jewish extremists manage to assault the Temple Mount and damage the Al Aqsa mosque.
Well then Miss Manners might start WW3.
IMO.
Jesus wept.

What do you think Miss Manners does when Jesus weeps at one of her parties?

[skygod]

Hands him a tissue?