ticketless burners, gatekeepers, and money

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
a2^8
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Some gatekeepers

Postby a2^8 » Fri Sep 05, 2003 3:37 pm

not all but some, were total fucking morons on a power trip.

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Stormy
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Searching Small Boxes

Postby Stormy » Fri Sep 05, 2003 8:08 pm

In regards to making people completely unload a vehicle or an overly thorough search, I believe the Gate staff does that either when a vehicle has been involved previously or suspected of being involved with transporting illegal entrants. And occasionally searchers do it when the ticketholders are particularly rude. Best way to get in quickly is to be polite and co-operate. Most people bring their own grief upon themselves.

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Lydia Love
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Postby Lydia Love » Fri Sep 05, 2003 8:22 pm

Best way to get in quickly is to be polite and co-operate.


This disturbs me in context with burningman somehow...

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Stormy
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Postby Stormy » Fri Sep 05, 2003 8:25 pm

Lydia Love wrote:
Best way to get in quickly is to be polite and co-operate.


This disturbs me in context with burningman somehow...


:lol: Well one can be radically self-expressive and hold up a long line of cars that's in danger of reaching the highway. Though the 1st Amendment usually only protects the right of self-expression up to the point of harming others.

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Lydia Love
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Postby Lydia Love » Fri Sep 05, 2003 8:28 pm

well - it's not like I'm not usually polite

except for *here*

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Stormy
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Postby Stormy » Fri Sep 05, 2003 8:39 pm

Lydia Love wrote:well - it's not like I'm not usually polite

except for *here*


Hee hee. Of course there's some geek out there that will remind that you said that, the next time that you say something remotely unpolite *here.*
:P

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Lydia Love
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Postby Lydia Love » Fri Sep 05, 2003 8:42 pm

There are so many examples already...

But hey - if any geek feels like shooting fish in barrel - they can feel free

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Diazo
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omm our moan

Postby Diazo » Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:43 pm

clandyone,
i wasn't trying to adequately explain anything. his coming ticketless was not a thought-out project. (i know you're gonna quote me on that, right?) he didn't have the money and wanted to go - it was as simple as that (and no he was not a trustafarian with $ stashed up his sleeve). and he didn't get in anyway, so all potential harm was put to a halt. i just loved him and hoped he could be part of it. it was up to him to figure out how.

i will admit i was naive on the costs to put on BM and the reality of where the money goes and the enormity of the volunteer work and the issue of the permit. i had no idea about the accuracy of numbers=permit. thanks for educating me on that. all i can say is this: in an ideal world who can argue with the fact that it would be nice if everyone could experience BM regardless of how much money they have? it would be nice if money didn't have to enter the picture at all and we could all follow the STOP SHOPPING creed of the Rev. but i guess that's one of the contradictions here... it costs a lot of money to put on this event and to get into this event just so that we can stop spending money once we're there and have fun. and i guess this imaginary place i'm talking about where money doesn't enter the picture must not be BM at all, but a Rainbow gathering.

but here's why my friend deserved to get into the event if you must know: he's a diaphanous shapeshifter angel-spirit, a born again jesus of gethsemane putting BM to the test before drinking from his last cup of holy wine. when he got caught, he spiraled up into the air and dissipated into a zillion tiny sparkling glitter pieces adorning every burners' hair and eyelashes. spreading the love like playa dust. so, it's ok now. remember all the good love vibes that happened out there without words. let's take a communal breath right now deep into the root chakra sex organs and omm our moan to heaven. let's fall in love and make burning m===================n our lover again.
Last edited by Diazo on Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Diazo
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ps

Postby Diazo » Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:53 pm

i think the gate keepers were great. i loved them. they do a hard-ass job and do it well.

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TheJudge
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Postby TheJudge » Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:53 pm

III wrote:i agree that many of the jobs out there are necessary - including the gate. but anyone who's seen the amount of loot that they shake down, and the gloating that often goes with it, realizes that there isn't a lot of altruism there.


All we shake down nowadays is stowaways. In the good old days, we used to take half of someone's booze as a "stupid tax" but those days have gone the way of the drive by shooting gallery. Today we have a kinder, gentler gate. We just make the person pay for a ticket. That's it.

Now if someone driving in through the gate wants to hand me a cold beer on a hot day as a gift, I'm not going to object. (of course, we cant drink while on duty, but its the thought that counts)
"Be at one with the dust of the earth. This is primal union." - Lao Tsu

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TheJudge
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Re: Some gatekeepers

Postby TheJudge » Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:00 am

a2^8 wrote:not all but some, were total fucking morons on a power trip.



I pride myself at being more of a fucking asshole rather than a moron. Its more entertaining that way.
"Be at one with the dust of the earth. This is primal union." - Lao Tsu

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robbidobbs
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Re: Some Gatekeepers

Postby robbidobbs » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:44 am

As one of the Gatekeepers, I found that 98% of the folks coming in had read the back of their ticket, and cheerfully allowed me to riffle thru their belongings. Gate staff are required to ask permission first, be thourough, and reasonably professional. Just the fact that everyone was subject to search, IMO, helped to reduce the incidence of stowaways. If the offender wants to play a game with us, we will play too. And yes, I get a wee tickled with glee when I get a "point." The jerk stowaway however gets to pay current ticket price, no questions asked. If they give us grief, the price gets bumped up. Burningman doesn't need beligerent assholes who don't want to abide by the few rewls we do enforce, and I don't feel at all bad about taking care to ensure that everyone that comes into our city *deserves* to be there.

_john_
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Re: robbidobbs

Postby _john_ » Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:06 pm

first, i respect the tons of work gatekeepers do, and i give the benefit of the doubt to all current gatekeepers, but. . .

"The jerk stowaway however gets to pay current ticket price, no questions asked. If they give us grief, the price gets bumped up. "

. . .statements like that coming from gatekeepers show that the potential for abuse is there. bribes could be taken, vedettas pursued, etc. we need to set up a pre-determined penalty (if any) for trying to sneak into burningman, then apply it uniformly. this arbitrary stuff begs for abuse.

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Isotopia
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Postby Isotopia » Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:29 pm

A nice predetermined penalty would be to collect all the tickets of the people trying to enable the parasite in and turn them away with no chance of a refund.

If you make that the policy and put it out there well before the event (Jackrabbit, ePlaya, etc.) you'd reduce the number of people trying to get away with it.

Same goes with the people who drop off runners at the 12 mile point. Have perimeter folks check the vehicle make, plate number and number of occupants in the vehicle.

Draconian? Yep. Assholian? You bet. Effective? Bet your ass.

One year of this and I think you'll find the dumbasses suddenly jumping on the Clue Bus reeeeeal quick.

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Re: robbidobbs

Postby Halo Joe » Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:31 pm

_john_ wrote:we need to set up a pre-determined penalty (if any) for trying to sneak into burningman, then apply it uniformly.


I agree. Here's my suggestion: If you get caught trying to sneak in, you're barred from entering. Period. Go home, fucker. I'm not one for many rules and such, but I look at the admission fee as a sort of (very) basic tax -- we share certain resources on the playa (port-o-crappers, street signs, the Man, burn platforms, etc.) and that ticket helps pay for those.

(And yeah, I know part of my ticket fee goes to a 401(k) for some LLCers, but that's another matter entirely...)
You were burning long before you stepped into this fire. -- EB

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robbidobbs
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No bribes accepted

Postby robbidobbs » Sat Sep 06, 2003 6:29 pm

"we need to set up a pre-determined penalty (if any) for trying to sneak into burningman, then apply it uniformly. this arbitrary stuff begs for abuse."

Wow, did you ever jump to conclusions of the worse kind! There is in fact a pre-determined penalty, applied unformly by the Gate hierarchy. No arbitrariness, just good old fashioned horse-sense or "John Wayne justice." And FYI: No gate staff personally benefits from finding stowaways, and bribery is SERIOUSLY dealt with. So you can jump off your uneducated high-horse and try working out in the dirt with us sometime. Stowaways are lucky we're professional enough to ask them to purchase a ticket at all.

Halo Joe
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Postby Halo Joe » Sat Sep 06, 2003 6:32 pm

I worked Census in 2002 and the Greeters station this year, and I gotta say the Gate crew has one of the most thankless jobs on the playa. Everyone wants to be greeted, but few people seem to feel the same level of enthusiasm for the Gate workers. Major credit due to the Gate crew.
You were burning long before you stepped into this fire. -- EB

nodule
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Postby nodule » Sat Sep 06, 2003 7:49 pm

Volunteering: I think figuring $1.50/hour as "compsensation" is inacurate. Figure the first hours at minimum wage, until the ticket is paid for. Any work beyond that qualifies as volunteering.

Searches: It's strange that I'd object vehimently to a police search, but have no problem with gate staff - maybe there is a difference in trust level. The concept does bother me, but the need is also understandable - it's not clearcut, somehow.

For two years, the old motor home has been packed so full that searchers couldn't even get their heads in. If they'd wanted me to unpack at the gate, I'd have been pissed, but I cheerily offered to have them follow me to camp and watch us unload. They just let us through (and no, no one was in there.)

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captain mcguiver
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Postby captain mcguiver » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:11 pm

We picked up some hitchikers in Pyramid Lake because we had the room in our disgusting overpriced, useless, yuppie, RV-megacondo (another rant).

Around Gerlach one of them decided it was a good time to tell us he planned on stowing away because he didn't have a ticket.

We promptly told him to fuck off and left him and his friend in Gerlach.

Actually we were much nicer, but we should have told him to fuck off.

He ended up getting in somehow, hopefully with a ticket, and his buddy and him showed up at our camp. Seems they allowed us to truck in some of their belongings. What we thought was a simple pickup of stuff turned into a 7 day, sit on my ass, drink your beer, eat your food, and watch you build your camp without so much as a cool story. Literally, I watched this guy plant himself on a seat and stare ahead for 6 hours.

We reallllllllly wanted to kick these guys out because the were super-leeches and not even hiding the fact, but the stupid ass Burner Spirit got in our way and made us watch them like spineless jelly fish. We decided it wasn't worth the trouble to boot em, and just kind of walked around them.

On the last day one of them helped a little during breakdown. Yay. We survived. However, if you are going to hitchhike in and squat on someone's camp, pound some damn rebar or tell me a damn story. If not, you may never leave our camp... There are a lot of holes on the playa...

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Stormy
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Re: robbidobbs

Postby Stormy » Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:19 pm

[quote="Halo Joe
I agree. Here's my suggestion: If you get caught trying to sneak in, you're barred from entering. Period. Go home, fucker. I'm not one for many rules and such, but I look at the admission fee as a sort of (very) basic tax -- we share certain resources on the playa (port-o-crappers, street signs, the Man, burn platforms, etc.) and that ticket helps pay for those. [/quote]

Sounds fair enough but how do you keep the person from trying to re-enter? They commonly do if they can't afford the ticket after being caught. The disincentive of tearing up the tickets (as suggested in this threared) of those helping the stow-away would help a great deal. Just have to sell the idea to the powers that be in the LLC.
Be the change you seek in the world.

_john_
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re: No bribes accepted

Postby _john_ » Sun Sep 07, 2003 7:07 pm

once again: benefit of the doubt to all current gatekeepers for whom i have nothing but gratitude for the tough job they do.

now. . . in one post, robbidobbs you say that sometimes stowaways are charged more when they have attitude. in another post you say ticket prices are entirely predetermined. which is it?

my point is merely that with any arbitrarily decided ticket price, were unscrupulous people to one day become gatekeepers, we would have a problem. leave a pot of honey in the woods and ants will come.

i mean, wouldn't you rather gatekeep in a situation where no one could even question the potential for abuse? or maybe it's already that way. i'm not sure because of the contradictory posts. but if that's the case, please disabuse me.

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Lydia Love
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Postby Lydia Love » Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:40 pm

wouldn't you rather gatekeep in a situation where no one could even question the potential for abuse?


More that I see no way possible to remove all potential for abuse... and choose to trust and hope that it won't happen... and be dissapointed if and when I hear it does.

Like in every other single interaction in life.
It's all about the squirrels.

RedTux
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We are gate.... we will search you...

Postby RedTux » Mon Sep 08, 2003 2:09 pm

captain mcguiver wrote:We picked up some hitchikers in Pyramid Lake <snip>
Around Gerlach one of them decided it was a good time to tell us he planned on stowing away because he didn't have a ticket.
<snip>
We reallllllllly wanted to kick these guys out because the were super-leeches and not even hiding the fact, but the stupid ass Burner Spirit got in our way and made us watch them like spineless jelly fish. We decided it wasn't worth the trouble to boot em, and just kind of walked around them.


This is one reason why stowaways suck! You experienced how stowaways can have an effect on you and your campmates. However what if they did get in using your RV and they became a medical burdon? Then they are a burdon to the whole community and that costs the community, and you where the transport mechanism for this paracite. Here it only cost you, and that SUCKS! However in the sprit of the event you could have Radicaly Expressed yourself and kicked their asses to the curb!

As to the ticket prices being set in an unaribitrary manner, yes and no. Each day the ticket price goes up. There are also tickets printed which are for an amount higher than any days' price. For example if the highest price day is Thursday and it's ticket is say $350 (I didn't work box office so I don't know exact prices, only concept) then there will be some tickets which are printed for say $400, $450 and so on. The basic forumla is that everyone pays the ticket price for the day plus an attitude factor. The attitude factor is roughly inversly proportonate to one's attitude. You're an asshole, you get charged more, you're nice you might not get charged more. The Gate staffers to not collect the money for the ticket, that is the job of the Box Office, Gate only chooses the appropriately priced pre-printed ticket.

Now, do we send stowaways and their rides home without refund? I would love to see that! However I think it's a little impractical. Besices we have enough runners to deal with out on the Perimeter.

precipitate
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Postby precipitate » Mon Sep 08, 2003 2:15 pm

> Sounds fair enough but how do you keep the person from trying to re-enter? They commonly do if they can't afford the ticket after being caught.

"STOWAWAY" brand on the forehead? In some kind of ink that's a real bitch to wash off?

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TestesInSac
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Postby TestesInSac » Mon Sep 08, 2003 2:38 pm

precipitate wrote:"STOWAWAY" brand on the forehead? In some kind of ink that's a real bitch to wash off?


Sharpies to the gate staff!

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Isotopia
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Postby Isotopia » Mon Sep 08, 2003 3:03 pm

[rant]
should
Now, do we send stowaways and their rides home without refund? I would love to see that! However I think it's a little impractical.


Actually RedTux I'd disagree - unless you're privvy to something I'm not.

Ideally, if you have people who are or are attempting to enable someone sneaking into the event then they are accessories to the problem. In short, they are participating just as much in breaking the social contract as the person actually sneaking in. There should be no distinction between the two.

I certainly draw none because I believe both are parasitic to the event.

Now, if you consider that the ticket can be revoked at any time and participants ejected from the event for any reason (due to it being a 'private' event under the terms of the contract with BLM) then it makes sense to me that the only thing lacking is the collective will on the part of the LLC and/or Senior Staff to start making examples of these folks while sending out the message that such actions will not be tolerated by the participants of Black Rock City.

What's so impractical or difficult about telling a RV full of fuckloads to turn their shit around and get the fuck out of Black Rock?

Seriously.

I don't understand this and frankly never have - especially when gate and perimeter folks are continually being hammered to be vigilant, frosty and do their jobs 110%. Meanwhile, any real salient message needing to be put out there about sneaking in is continually being blurred if not outright obscurred by some within the org who seem to have this "aw shucks, let 'em in if they have the money" mentality which does absolutely fucking NOTHING towards changing the culture or altering the perception that it continues to be OK to collectively rob everyone else because of someone's selfish belief that BM is something that's entitled to them without any sacrifice or outlay of capital which keep the event going.

Really, it's bullshit and I hope the fuck someone in the org finally fucking starts to get it. For me this topic is one of those indicators that suggests that there are real problems that the event is rolling towards that need to finally, and conclusively be addressed. Fuck the mixed messages and fuck the double standards.

But that's just me...

[/rant]

Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 08, 2003 3:09 pm

casnimot wrote:Sharpies to the gate staff!

sharpies my ass...i wanna smell some charred flesh...

slut
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Penalties

Postby slut » Mon Sep 08, 2003 3:46 pm

I like the idea of some penalty being applied to everyone in the vehicle. The only problem with something as draconian as telling the whole vehicle to go home is that the enforcers will not want to enforce the penalty. As a gatekeeper (which I will volunteer for next year - this year we just ran out to the gate with several pizzas, beer and drinks for the crew) I would be much more likely to give the jerks a warning and send them over to buy a ticket if I the other option was sending a carload of people home. Now if the penalty was something like $50 plus an additional $20 per person in the vehicle added to price of the sneaks ticket that I would galdly enforce. Obviously there is some grey area here but allowing them to buy a regular priced ticket is too little and I think sending many people home is too much.

The penalties have to set at a level the gatekeepers are comfortable with otherwise it becomes a burden on them as well.

RedTux
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Postby RedTux » Mon Sep 08, 2003 4:00 pm

Isotopia wrote:Ideally, if you have people who are or are attempting to enable someone sneaking into the event then they are accessories to the problem. In short, they are participating just as much in breaking the social contract as the person actually sneaking in. There should be no distinction between the two.


I fully agree here. However sending them away is something we already do. Maybe I misunderstood earlier but I thought they were saying that if an RV has 5 people and 1 stowaway then they all should be turned around no questions asked and be sent home. This I do not agree with. Now if they cannot come up with the cash, then they go home. Sending them home without the chance of ticket purchace would create a veritable Slashdot effect on the perimeter.

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tbone
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Postby tbone » Mon Sep 08, 2003 4:03 pm

RedTux wrote: Sending them home without the chance of ticket purchace would create a veritable Slashdot effect on the perimeter.


<snort> <giggle>
Bwaaa!

That's beautiful


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