Support for Paul

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
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Somnivore
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Post by Somnivore » Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:24 pm

Ditto to the tenders Sue. I wasn't looking for accolades when I mentioned the Med tent, just stating that people were scrambling to get ready in case we got a bunch of victims (I was at 3, not REMSA). Agree that the firefighters did an OUTSTANDING job considering the available resources. Let's just say I'm thankful no one got hurt.





[quote="Bay Bridge Sue"]What amazed me was that the people who went out there to the pre-burn burn set up their own perimeter. Made me kinda proud of my fellow BRC citizens that we remembered that much. SUre, it wasn't as far as the traditional Saturday perimeter, but people still had their head on right.

Item of note - the REAL heros were the big water tenders of Station 5 and their operators who had the water and the power to get the man fogged and then dowsed. I think it's time that our engine companies went from pickups to actual engines - this is a wake up call. (And what about the art car fire engines out there this year... were any of them available to actually respond as water units had the water been available, or were they just there as window dressing for a flame cannon? No offense intended, just a question, OK?) But seriously... Imagine some of these big fuel dumps some camps have out there. They'd burn hotter (and potentially more dangerous) than the man.

About the "Med tent"... meaning REMSA? Or one of the stations? I mean, well... going to a structure collapse / major casualty mode isn't that tough other than rousting personnel. But yeah, we were all scattering.

Who I worried for were our firefighters who responded. I didn't think the man would be saved, and all I could think about were our VFD people in the drop zone of that thing when it came barreling down. Again, Julies and Lightning (The Station 5 folks) were fucking HEROS and should be granted the accolades of such...

As His Larryness allegedly said, People have been threatening this for 15 years, it was only a matter of time... And so it did. We survived. We moved on. As well we should.

Anyway, back to your regularly unscheduled burn...

bb[/quote]
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Post by spectabillis » Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:36 pm

As His Larryness allegedly said, People have been threatening this for 15 years, it was only a matter of time... And so it did. We survived. We moved on. As well we should.
what i think is ironic about that, especailly the 'larryness', i bet if larry harvey made a public announcement that he wasnt all that concerned about it people would start to feel the same way and the whole discussion would die out quickly.

people have strange tendencies, one of the things to admire about burningman was the ability to create an open environment free from dogmaic ideals and loyalty. blind attribution to authority was one of those, but now people have somehow automatically placed authority in a figurehead that doesnt have much of a presence. i remember a comment by jim mason on how people have created their own perception and meaning to who he is that is very separate from the real person.

then you have the man, and despite having the freedom to avoid explicit meaning - especially close-minded ones like religion and politics - people have attributed an icon to almost religious status. its like being a neocon screaming at those burning a flag.

yeah.. so much for that too.

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Post by Jordan 10-E » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:11 pm

You know when I was riding my bike out to watch the events unfold I couldn't help but think that, "Our god(s) are burning". I don't think it was the first time someone has felt that sensation in the history of man.
10E

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Post by CapSmashy » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:20 pm

spectabillis wrote:you support twenty years in prison as a sentance?
As already mentioned, perhaps he should have considered the potential consequences related to his actions before committing them.

I have severe disagreements with the present drug laws and punishments. Even though I disagree with those laws, it is no one's fault but my own if I act in a manner that subjects me to the harsh reality of those punishments.

So yes, the anarchist in me can see and appreciate, to an extent, what was done Monday night, but the other side of me has little sympathy for whatever punishment is received for those actions.

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Post by spectabillis » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:46 pm

you think he should get twenty years in prison?

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Post by [CDS] topher » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:58 pm

spectabillis wrote:you think he should get twenty years in prison?
Felony Arson = Felony Arson.

And that's without the potential for human casualities.

Let him practice his "art" in Nevada's extensive prison system.
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Post by spectabillis » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:18 pm

how about directly answering the question - you think he should get twenty years in prison?

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Post by CapSmashy » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:54 pm

spectabillis wrote:how about directly answering the question - you think he should get twenty years in prison?
If the federal court he is tried in hands down a 20 year sentence as punishment for his actions the reality of the situation remains that he has no one to blame but himself.

As to whether or not I personally believe a 20 year sentence is right or wrong is irrelevant to the discussion. I disagree with a number of laws we are forced to live under but that alone does not make them any less real or draconian in nature.

Since you asked, yes, I do feel that 20 years in prison is a harsh sentence if he is a first time offender. The flipside of that coin is what is a fair sentence for his criminal activity? He willfully and purposefully committed the criminal act of arson. In the course of committing his criminal action, he exhibited reckless negligence and gross disregard for the personal safety of others in the area. No, there was no one was killed or injured stemming from his actions, but the potential of such results can not and should not be ignored.

Again, I stand by the initial remarks of if you are not prepared to accept the potential punishment that can result from your actions, you should rethink your actions. And yes, I feel that there are times that actions should be undertaken and to hell with the potential consequences, but does anyone honestly consider Burning Man to be such a time and place? Yes, it is a wonderful and potentially spiritual place, but is making a statement in protest of how you feel the event has turned away from what you feel it should be worth risking the lives of others to make that personal statement?

My own personal view would be that regardless of his stated reasons and self proclaimed (and granted by some) Savior of Burning Man status, his actions stem from pure, unadulterated selfishness. He felt someone pissed in his sandbox, a sandbox that he had already abandoned a few years earlier because he felt it had been pissed in then as well, and came back to create a look at me spectacle of himself. He is guilty of the very things he is accusing everyone else of doing.

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Post by spectabillis » Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:07 pm

And yes, I feel that there are times that actions should be undertaken and to hell with the potential consequences, but does anyone honestly consider Burning Man to be such a time and place?
after a week of chemical overload with sleep deprivation in a chaotic environment, i dont think about half the population thinks much about their actions. you should talk to a ranger veteran some time and hear the stories.

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EB
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Post by EB » Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:27 pm

spectabillis wrote:
And yes, I feel that there are times that actions should be undertaken and to hell with the potential consequences, but does anyone honestly consider Burning Man to be such a time and place?
after a week of chemical overload with sleep deprivation in a chaotic environment, i dont think about half the population thinks much about their actions. you should talk to a ranger veteran some time and hear the stories.
But this happened on Monday. At most, Addis could only be chemically overloaded and/or sleep deprived for one, maybe two days (if he had early entry privileges.)

By the accounts I've read, he used Monday's eclipse as a diversionary tactic, indicating that his actions were premeditated.

If you were the judge, Spec, what would your sentence be?

Me? I'd probably give him a year with two years suspended. I think a year to think about how stupid he was for rolling the dice with people's lives is fair.
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mojo
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Post by mojo » Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:28 pm

As I have pointed out in another thread, this is not just about art and making a statement. The reality of the situation is that someone has purposefully committed arson by burning the personal property of a business being used in the operation of that business, just because he disagreed with the decisions of the business owners.

So do you think that if someone doesn't like your restaurant or bar, they should be applauded in torching it?

I believe this man is disturbed and has made a desperate effort for some attention. I hope he gets way more than he bargained for.

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barnz
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Post by barnz » Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:10 pm

mojo wrote: So do you think that if someone doesn't like your restaurant or bar, they should be applauded in torching it?

Waitaminnit.

If someone doesn't like your Saturday night spaghetti special, they should get twenty years for having spaghetti on Monday?

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Zulegoona
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Post by Zulegoona » Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:15 pm

yes if they burn down your restaurant on Monday so no one else can participate in it on Saturday

It’s simple never do the crime if you aren’t willing to do the time

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Post by CapSmashy » Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:16 pm

barnz wrote:Waitaminnit.

If someone doesn't like your Saturday night spaghetti special, they should get twenty years for having spaghetti on Monday?

:?
No, if someone doesn't like how your spaghetti sauce has changed over the years and decides to torch your restaurant... well, the sign above the restaurant anyway, because of their dislike, they deserve to be prosecuted for it.

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Post by CapSmashy » Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:18 pm

A much better idea is to keep your fond memories of how good the spaghetti used to be and find or build a new restaurant to make new memories in.

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Post by spectabillis » Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:46 pm

EB wrote:But this happened on Monday. At most, Addis could only be chemically overloaded and/or sleep deprived for one, maybe two days (if he had early entry privileges.) ... If you were the judge, Spec, what would your sentence be?
oh i know, it wasnt a reply to addis but more with the general state of most people there in thinking they are all that cognizent.

dunno, will think about it, but i wonder if you just put him on parole how likely he would be to violate it.

side note: for those that say the law is the law and are screaming for justice with a max sentance in pershing county, i suggest they research la contessa and put the same amount of effort into that.

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Post by Bob » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:26 pm

He is, or was, an attorney at law, albeit in the State of California. So he knew in a professional, ethical, moral & legal sense what the risk was. Let Nevada law do its work.
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Post by The CO » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:07 pm

Do they know who torched la contessa?
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Post by spectabillis » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:11 pm

would have to ask someone like shooter on tribe, i dont have the details what happened to la contessa and dont keep track of the links.

if you ask him he's not going to be impartial about what heppened, but please, give him a hug.



man i can be evil

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Post by plowman » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:30 pm

I think the real heroes are the people who resurected the man.
They worked and worked hard prior to Burning Man to build him. Just when they thought their efforts would be rewarded by a week off, some IDIOT torches him. The time and effort put forth by these people should be commended. I'm only one voice but all I can say is THANK YOU !!!




This act was nothing more than VIOLENCE..
Protest all you want but when you become violent and destuctive you step over the line.
If you support this man and his actions, I feel sorry for you because you don't get the true meaning of Burning Man. Drugs and sleep depravation have nothing to do with it. If thats what you are looking for, go find another desert. How about Iraq, I hear they love violence and destruction over there

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Post by diane o'thirst » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:04 pm

spectabillis wrote:you think he should get twenty years in prison?
I don't. There are child molesters and DUI murderers that get less than that. (not to say that's okay, either)

I do, however, think he should be fined out the wazoo and sentenced to 3-5 years in prison, with a couple years knocked off if he cooperates and helps with the investigation of this alleged BRI mass suicide he talked about after his release.

Edit: Wanted to give a tip of the hat to Plow Man. Dead-centre correct on all counts, hermano.
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Post by Ebenezer Squeezer » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:31 pm

Wrath7sins wrote:I think it was an inside job. I'll explain the theory if requested, otherwise I'll keep my trap shut on it. :?

I have to admit I thought the same thing. Especially when considering what next years theme is about.

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Post by goathead » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:59 pm

you think he should get twenty years in prison?
I guess he forgot to read
THE BACK OF HIS TICKET.

Stupidity has its own rewards.

Wonder what kind of performance art they will perform on him in prison?
Guess he should have thought of that before he lite the match.

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Re: Support for Paul

Post by COPPERFISH » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:50 pm

[CDS] topher wrote:
Mr. Woods wrote:I support Paul and his decision and actions. Hooray!
First Burn Rule: Don't Fuck With Others' Burn. Period.
I was actually present at the time (had just arrived and walked out with some close friends. There WERE people in CLEAR danger. That alone invalidates everything the "artist" (I use the term loosely...he comes across to me as more of an insane attention seeking sociopath) was trying to accomplish with this act.
I'd like to hear from the folks who were supposedly herded out from under the man. Seems like alot of the sympathy for this guy rests on the presumed safety of those people. You can always say "what if someone got killed", but no one did get killed. My interest lies in whether the people directly under the man at the time felt like this guy took their saftey into consideration. If not then we have a little more to go on besides a bunch of yahoo speculation an heresay.

I guess we take a lot of risks in life. A lot of people are careless with other peoples lives and we don't think twice about it. You are probably a lot more likely to be killed or injured by a careless motorist than a careless anarchist.

I dunno - I don't have the strongest opinion either way.

i know that personally i don't believe that our system of laws and punishments are just in any way, shape, or form, so trying to gauge suffucient ramifications for Addis is difficult because you are already working within a very warped framework.

i hope he doesn't spend 20 years in jail. I don't think very many people who have probably done worse than him should spend that long in prison.

the concept of punishing this guy to make him an example scares me. i think I have morals and ethics without the need for people to be punished as examples. And I think the people who would commit "crimes" or disruptive acts would not be deterred by such examples.

Also revenge is a nasty monster, and should never be embodied in the minds of an angry mob or the hands of an unjust legal system.
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Post by itwazed » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:34 pm

Paul Addis needs to be punished...his act was selfish above all things, it was selfish to the people who spent months labouring to build the man (and then had to to it all over again), it was selfish to all the burners who rolled in tues., wed, and thur morning to no man, it was selfish to all the people sleeping after a long days work setting up theme camps, domes, etc who failed to see the man burn the first time. His actions were reckless and no matter that no one was hurt, the fact that anyone could have gotten hurt makes it reckless. And finally his actions were just plain wrong...its wrong to destroy something that does not belong to you, the Man belongs to the entire community and should be burned when the entire community can witness it. Paul Addis should be fined the Price of each and every ticket minus his own that was bought for this years burn....and then he should be forced to spend his next burn working with the DPW on 12 hour shifts...the punishment should fit the crime.
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Arson

Post by Stagger » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:51 pm

Well, it’s possible that Addis will not be convicted of arson. Under federal law…

(B) the term “arsonâ€
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Re: Arson

Post by spectabillis » Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:44 pm

[quote="Stagger"]So, was the Man “real propertyâ€

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Post by thisisthatwhichis » Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:26 pm

itwazed wrote:Paul Addis needs to be punished...his act was selfish above all things, it was selfish to the people who spent months labouring to build the man (and then had to to it all over again), it was selfish to all the burners who rolled in tues., wed, and thur morning to no man, it was selfish to all the people sleeping after a long days work setting up theme camps, domes, etc who failed to see the man burn the first time. His actions were reckless and no matter that no one was hurt, the fact that anyone could have gotten hurt makes it reckless. And finally his actions were just plain wrong...its wrong to destroy something that does not belong to you, the Man belongs to the entire community and should be burned when the entire community can witness it. Paul Addis should be fined the Price of each and every ticket minus his own that was bought for this years burn....and then he should be forced to spend his next burn working with the DPW on 12 hour shifts...the punishment should fit the crime.

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Post by trocar » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:22 pm

it was selfish to all the burners who rolled in tues., wed, and thur morning to no man
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think I remember a lot of years where the man wasn't up till the later part of the week.

I don't know...the putting folks in danger part is really the only issue I can see as being an actual issue. Though, does anyone remember how the man was packed full of large fireworks (by the BMORG mind you) that would shoot out into the crowd just a few years back. It kind of kept the kids from getting too close without there being a need for really any conversation about being too close.

Well, and I feel for the folks who worked their asses off to only have their work prematurely ignited. Though, I have worked on a lot of projects out there and none of them went the way I or others had planned. That always seems to be the magic part of it. You are in the middle of nowhere with limited resources, something fucked happens and you use what is at hand and the ingenuity and creativity makes the original idea awesome in the truest sense of the word. Just look at the wooden guy that was burned on Saturday this year. It was way better than the one that kind of burned on Tuesday morning. There were all the volunteers that helped out and all the creativity that went in to the building and symbols that were added to the sculpture. I think from now on the man should be built by participants starting when gates open Monday morning and it does not stand until burn Saturday.

Really now, was anything lost those days/nights because this big wooden and neon thing wasn’t in the middle of the playa? Did anyone show-up Tuesday night and say “Dude, bummer, there’s no man. I’m so going homeâ€

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Post by Tiahaar » Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:31 am

trocar wrote:If you want a good sentence, make him hang out in center camp for the entire week next year. No Breaks, no walking around – THE ENTIRE FUCKING WEEK. That will learn anyone.
or better yet, this 'paul' fellow gets to spend the next twenty BurningMan events on-playa locked in the Dicky box for a week. Ha.

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