Is Addis burning sacred cows?

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DaBomb
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Is Addis burning sacred cows?

Post by DaBomb » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:48 am

One burner's sacred effigy is another worshipper's sacred church.

Editorial writer D. Parvaz from the Seattle Post-Intelligencer wrote a piece entitled "Arsonist or performance artist?" about how she sympathizes with Addis and church burning which kicked off a backlash from other, more conservative bloggers.

Read all about it here and take the poll!

http://burncast.blogspot.com/2007/10/ar ... rtist.html
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scotto
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Post by scotto » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:23 pm

More from the Book of Addis is an ASSHAT!!!!

From inside an ASSHAT...

I have not been to church since 1997, I am not satisfied with what I
see happening in American Religion today! I thought it was my duty, my
right, to help shake up the Religious Center, the immoral minority out
of its current complacency....

Religion used to be such a radical institution back in the day...In
1997, there were pulpit swearing demigods, with rhetoric that could get
an Eskimo to buy ice. Where have they all gone? Where are the drive
by Communions? Where are the mass healings?

I have tried TWICE now to wake you all the F*&*&CK UP!! Please do not
let me or the other two people who still believe in me down!!!

Remember your mouth can be an incendiary device! Do not be
complacent!! Do not let them take away your right to be a narcissist!!!

*Note** The above blather is Not actually a Paul Addis quote....

Scotto
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Post by mdmf007 » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:27 pm

scotto -

iThis quote is from where?

thanks

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Badger
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Post by Badger » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:11 pm

about how she sympathizes with Addis and church burning which kicked off a backlash from other, more conservative bloggers.
So let me get this straight DaBomb.

You reference a piece written by a woman who has a...novel... if somewhat interesting though not original take on the arrest of a person who's been arrested twice within the last three months for arson and conspiracy to commit arson. Her opinions, expressed in a very public forum, give rise to a good deal of acrimony and in some cases pretty overt outrage. Fair enough.

What I wanna know is where you cull the information that her detractors are 'conservative' just because they choose not to subscribe to her view or her opinions.

Keeping in mind that differing opinions don't necessarily equate to 'liberal' or 'conservative' world views on MOST issues I'm calling big BULLSHIT on the subtle injection of your own bias over a discussion that's gonna have differing opinions.

That's some sad shit there DaBomb. Even sadder is seeing you stoop to such sophomoric tactics from someone whose opinion I thought quite highly of.
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Bob
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Post by Bob » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:54 pm

Hey Badger, don't piss off the popular burners.
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Post by diane o'thirst » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:25 pm

I'm not Christian by any means. I'm a Pagan.

[/disclaimer]

Burning a sacred space, of any spirituality, <i>IS NOT COOL.</i> As in, UN sanctions Not Cool. This is how wars get started.

Hand up anyone that cheered when the Buddhas of Bamiyan got blown up? The Taliban were protecting their people from worship of idols and saving them from themselves, but I think we all agree they were assholes supreme for doing that.

Aside from the fact that the cost of each one of those mortar shells used to destroy the statues, could have fed an Afghani family for a year. But still...

I'm not pissed but only because he was caught before he could carry out his threat. If he wants attention, fine and dandy. Hope he chokes on it.
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Post by Zhust » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:44 pm

In the end, it's just stuff that can be burned. You know, stuff. Not ideas. Not homes. Just stuff. I think Jesus would agree, but I'd have to read the Bible to have a leg to stand on about it.

Ok, so the Man is "art". In the loosest definition. The Temple -- IMHO -- is way more "art" than the Man ... the Man is "art" like a Marlboro billboard is "art". Would y'all be so up-in-arms if Addis piece #2 were as such?
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diane o'thirst
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Post by diane o'thirst » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:02 am

Well, yeah, it is all Stuff. And I'm sure Buddha was saying just that when the statues went.

However...people cling to their illusions. You can't go around assuming that everyone is at the same spiritual plateau as you are and really, it's not your place to stuff your ideology down the unwilling throat. Go ahead and tell them "it's just stuff," but they have to accept that for themselves. When they're ready to say, "This is all Just Stuffâ„¢," they'll walk away. And those who have no use for churches, idols, sacred groves, petroglyphs and mosques...don't use them.

So the Burn's gotten too stultified with rules. Walk away. Don't walk away, plan your revenge and come back to act on it. Walk away and keep walking. If you don't like the Ten Principles, go do your own desert freak-out.

So religion's gotten corrupt and interferes with peoples' lives. Don't go to church! It will die, let it.

If you're against abortion, don't have one. If you're against gay marriage, don't do it.

I guess it's just a "respect" thing again.
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Post by spectabillis » Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:15 am

Bob wrote:Hey Badger, don't piss off the popular burners.
not likely. i am sure she is used to people like you being complete assholes because of some perceived social standing of popularity you have a hard-on to deconstruct, and thinking doing that is somehow more important than the person or what they have to say.

besides, badger has been such an asshole it will probably just get him ignored. i would, especially not wasting my time debating a semantical choice of a single word with someone prone to calling people names or such.

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Post by scotto » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:21 am

mdmf007 wrote:scotto -

iThis quote is from where?

thanks
This is what ASSHAT would have said, that is from within the mind of Scotto...
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Post by Badger » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:25 am

Spec, sometime you make Badger laugh so hard.
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Post by spectabillis » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:18 am

makes sense. besides insults and ridicule, mocking and laughter meant to demean someone serves a similar purpose.

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Post by mdmf007 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:20 am

Thanks Scotto - all clear now.

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Post by Badger » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:42 am

mocking and laughter meant to demean someone serves a similar purpose.
Sometimes rightfully so dear - especially for the sanctimoniously indignant.
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Post by DaBomb » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:15 pm

Whew!

I haven't received any e-mails telling me to check this thread, so it came as quite a surprise to see all the vitriol spewing here.

I'll admit that in a former life I used to be easily bated in a flame war. And it looks like there are some fightin' words here. Badger: you seem to want to engage me in getting my panties in a bunch again. Well, no thanks. After all I've been through in a decade in the community (drink!) the sky can only fall once. That surely is enough in my book, at least to me.

You can call bullshit all you want, Badger. I really don't care You're entitled to your opinion. I'm just freaking blogging about it! Sheesh. You can blog too you know? Kinda like start your own event? Burning Man love it or leave it?

:wink:

Seriously, you could post some sort of cogent rebuttal on the blog instead of getting so angry here. I mean, isn't the point to exchange ideas? Or has Addis got us polarized to throw barbs and insults to each other?

Frankly, I'm super tired of the Addis dialogue and want to focus on something more kumbaya. But it seems that the Internet is not conducive to this sort of communications and all everybody wants to do is engage in a bitch fest. This really saddens me because as a burner, I'd hope for something more positive even if the dialogue is agreeing to disagree.

Feel free to hate on me all you want. I honestly don't care. I don't think your peace of mind is worth it though.
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Bob
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Post by Bob » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:47 pm

You people have raised Addis up (again & again) as some sort of legend, when he's been an annoying little nutjob for many of us for a decade or so. Various bloggers think he's fair game for speculation. So don't expect other people not to comment as they see fit, especially if they've had prior experience with the munchkin.
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Bob
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Post by Bob » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:15 pm

BTW, what do you mean by "a backlash from other, more conservative bloggers"?

Specifically, to what does "backlash" refer? People keep using that word, as if it meant something.
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Post by spectabillis » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:16 pm

you're being a dick bob, period. no excuse around it and badger can speak for himself.



if either of you two wish to degrade this into a pissing match i will avoid that, and simply remind in the exact same way badger has on several occasions - if you dont like it, leave.

there are plenty of other boards prone to support your behavior than to continue it here. if you want to complain then contact an org staff member. good luck, after badger's history here i doubt there's a volunteer left willing to listen to him and you're not winning much popularity bob.

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Post by Bob » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:33 pm

Le Chagrin et la Pitié

I wasn't addressing you, spec. The OP can speak for herself, I should hope.
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Post by K-mom » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:45 pm

Even if it does seem like picking away at little details, I like the way Badger or others will call people on their use of individual words. Any advertising exec will tell you that those inserted adjectives and adverbs often switch people's focus in a different direction.
I try to spot things like that myself but if I don't it's nice to have others there pointing them out.
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Post by spectabillis » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:55 pm

Bob wrote:I wasn't addressing you, spec. The OP can speak for herself, I should hope.
and you were not addressing dabomb with your initial post bob, you were being a dick and you know it.

as far as dabomb replying or whatever anyone else has to say about it now, it was my suggestion she just ignore you two.

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Post by DaBomb » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:01 pm

Bob, did you say I was popular? I'm flattered, but I don't believe it's so. I'm socially networked and there's a difference. I understand the medium in which I work and play. Popularity would imply I'm well liked. I'm pretty sure -- at least from this thread -- that is not true. And even if I were popular, it's only because I'm active in the community and provide a service that many folks seem to value.

You and Badger are invited to work with me to produce a BURNcast episode of your own. I'm very keen to hear what you have to say about the art, culture and community of Burning Man and would sincerely love to have you both on the show. PM me to set this up. Alternatively, you can also leave a comment on the blog.

If you'll remember (or not), I started BURNcast because I thought the sky was falling and I got upset. People said "be the change you want to see" when it comes to media exposure at Burning Man. So I'm out there doing it. I'm not a trained journalist, or a trained documentarian. You guys want to crucify me for using words like "conservative" or "backlash". Please. In my world it's words like "nigger" or "cunt" that can get you popped.

Burning churches presses buttons. Of course there's gonna be a backlash. So does burning mosques, burning crosses and burnng effigies.

The flaming here is pretty sad. I've seen people post here acting all superior to those folks on Tribe. But meh...it's about the same on both.

I think the more fascinating conversation is the dialogue going on in the blogosphere where people (many of whom have a prejudice about Burning Man even though they've never been) are talking about it.

Anyway, I just read this blog post from Dr. Clarissa Pinkola Estés (she wrote the book popular book "Women Who Run With the Wolves"). Incidentally, she writes for the "Moderate Voice" blog. She's writing about the D. Parvis article for the Seattle PI, of which this thread was originally about

I'd like to share a snippet of her posting. It seems somewhat fitting:

[quote]"Regarding the actual story of the alleged arsonist on the steps of Grace Cathedral, (he is also accused of setting fire to the Burning Man effigy, destroying a festival icon a couple months ago… out on bond when he showed up at Grace on Sunday) if the media’s spin of this story is just one more contrivance to drum up another round of “Catholic Church is Good.â€
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Post by Bob » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:02 pm

I'd really like to continue your discussion of my dick elsewhere, spec. How about lunch sometime?
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Post by DaBomb » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:08 pm

Wow...wow...wow....

This board is pretty harsh. I think I'll take you advice, Spec. This vitriol is just killing any sort of notion of communication.

Good luck, y'all.
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Post by spectabillis » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:13 pm

yeah, unfortunately its not the best idea to reply, maybe for the sake of others but bob and badger are more interested in making something else of it. i would just ignore it and move on to something more productive.

of course this just ruins things for everyone else but i guess thats partially their intention, bob has very little to do with burningman anymore and badger.. well, like many have mentioned to me, he's been going off like this all over tribe.

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Post by Bob » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:22 pm

DaBomb wrote:.... You and Badger are invited to work with me to produce a BURNcast episode of your own. I'm very keen to hear what you have to say about the art, culture and community of Burning Man and would sincerely love to have you both on the show. PM me to set this up. Alternatively, you can also leave a comment on the blog....
No, thank you. I grew up on Usenet, and still prefer plain-text posts & replies.

And I'm still wondering what you meant by typing the phrase "a backlash from other, more conservative bloggers".

My understanding is Addis is floating between jail and the psych ward at SF General, where he's been raving about being the second coming of Jesus. Other detainees & the cops say he won't shut up. Maybe you could fly up and sneak a microphone in his padded cell. Hey, I'm dead serious, I've got friends in there.
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Post by Flammepus » Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:49 am

OK, against my better judgment, I’m jumping in with a couple of comments.

1. I think that it is valid for Badger to question the use of the term ‘conservative’ in DaBomb’s original post. My reasoning: think of as many other words that could plausibly replace ‘conservative’ in that sentence as you can...

2. I did not read Bob’s ‘popular’ comment as anything other than sarcastic banter.

3. diane o’thirst has it sussed. Burning churches or religious objects (that you do not personally own, I would say…) is WRONG.

4. Jaycerochester poses an interesting question about STUFF. I would say that I have known more than a few anarchist punks and hippies who's fast and loose concept of property and ownership was murky enough that the question must be posed: is STUFF still just stuff when it is something like, say, your automobile or T.V. Jay?

5. spectabillis: dooood. WTF? Were you just prowling around looking for a spat? Was it a ’don’t listen to these mean guys, Da Bomb’ type thing or a ’my semantic dick is the biggest?’ type of thing? I have to laugh when a person enters a forum discussion with an off the top rope atomic elbow drop or whatever you attempted there...off topic...real class. Plus it is nice to see that you understand how much of a crap the rest of the board really gives about your relationship with Bob and Badger—but I would rather let you folks settle this in your own thread where THAT is the topic being discussed. Additionally, it is ok for Bob to ask someone what they mean by a phrase like, "a backlash from other, more conservative bloggers." That is one of them tenants o’ communication, asking for clarification, it helps people to understand each other when it is done right.

6. Reading the excerpt that DaBomb pasted in from the original blog in question, I think that the author has a shaky idea of what a straw man argument is. Dictionary.com says: a fabricated or conveniently weak or innocuous person, object, matter, etc., used as a seeming adversary or argument. I understand the image that she is trying to conjure—and it is simple and evocative , which is probably what she learned in journalism skool—but the use of the term ’straw man’ is inncorrect in this instance and serves to make her look like a hack to people with a better than average command of the English language.

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Post by spectabillis » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:07 am

Flammepus wrote:Was it a ’don’t listen to these mean guys, Da Bomb’ type thing or a ’my semantic dick is the biggest?’ type of thing?
you can gain an understanding on your own by starting here, otherwise you can pm me and i will explain things later - http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... c&start=60
Additionally, it is ok for Bob to ask someone what they mean by a phrase like, "a backlash from other...
not getting into a discussion on bob's questions, his initial post was nothing but being an asshole and thats what my response is about... ok?

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Post by mdmf007 » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:10 am

Why cant we all just get along?

Bob - you were being a dick.

Spec - love the pumpkin head (thought it was an orange wig or hair color - then looked closer)

If anyone is sick of hearing about Addis - I got news for you, your not hearing about it your reading about it. Blogs, BBS, Tribe, Eplaya is even less intrusive than radio. On a radio you may hear something you dont want too bu can always turn it off or change the station. In print - you simply stop reading and go to the next subject.

Maybe some of these threads are like car wrecks you have to look and its true that thread creep takes place - where a thread will creep from the original intent to another subject entirely..Case in point - this thread started about Addis. Now its talking about posts in themselves. Bobs posts seemed pretty benign to me, but then he threw some more jabs in.

Bob who is popular and who isnt lasts about 45 seconds or the a mount of time it takes for someone to read your last post.

I love drama, but hate reading pages of little jabs and deplore it when someone uses the "find all posts" button to simply follow someone around from thread to thread flaming them. It happens plenty and is immature.

anyways i am done ranting - I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread - Addis burning sacred cows.

later

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Post by Bob » Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:02 am

Maybe I should take credit for making the suggestion back on September 4 re: fucking up churches --

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... rch#339581

-- but I suppose I should apologize & retract my statement about it being a hate crime, as it now seems to be questionable whether the perp is or was a mental case.

Back to your regular hate <drink>.
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