This is for all threads to goto about www.stopburningman.org

[talisen]

you will all be happy i am now leaving.

i feel that i put out a black and white argument but no one seems to think so. was it so simple that peopel overlooked it? i have no idea

my comrads will probably continue but i am tired of the personal; bashing.

i guess this is what liberals/ (fill in your public affiliation here) do when confronted with some sad realities. yes my arguments were nto worded perfectly but if you read them escpaily the ones lately you can see what i am tryign to ask just to get people to think and make judgments for themselves. but all people do is flame and call me a troll. nope. i want peopel to see reality about BMORG and make judgments themselves

i hope to haver accomplished some fo that. sigh
ttyl
rex scates

aka allanon and no i am not a sock.

Little children get angry when they do not get their way. They want their viewpoint to be the only one that counts.

You came to this place, posted, and then proceded to refuse any discussion. You were called on this, and the reponse you made was to get angry. Little children eventually grow up. When shall you?

[Zane5100]

Zane:

"Uh, I have to go with stuart on this--I almost got into a knife fight (with big kitchen knives no less!) with a dude who had Down's.
Talking my way out of that was one the hardest things I'd ever done, as the dude was not in the mood to listen."

Maybe he didn't like being called "dude."


dri-i-i-i-i-i-ifting

Actually, the dispute erupted over me asking him to not pick his nose in front of the customers. He exploded and it went from there...

Imagine standing at the Pearly Gates of Heaven, St. Peter asks you how you died.
"I got knifed for asking someone not to pick their nose in front of customers."
"Asked the wrong question to the wrong person, eh?"
"Yep."
"There are a lot of your kind that come through here..."

[Rob the Wop]

aka allanon and no i am not a sock.

So you have two identities and you are not a sock puppet? Besides, of course, when you admited to being stopbmorg. That makes three identities. Which, of course, are not sock puppets.

Bye. Don't let reality be too harsh on ya.

[Zane5100]

"Life's hard. It's tougher when you're stupid."

[technopatra]

you will all be happy i am now leaving.

i feel that i put out a black and white argument but no one seems to think so. was it so simple that peopel overlooked it? i have no idea

my comrads will probably continue but i am tired of the personal; bashing.

i guess this is what liberals/ (fill in your public affiliation here) do when confronted with some sad realities. yes my arguments were nto worded perfectly but if you read them escpaily the ones lately you can see what i am tryign to ask just to get people to think and make judgments for themselves. but all people do is flame and call me a troll. nope. i want peopel to see reality about BMORG and make judgments themselves

i hope to haver accomplished some fo that. sigh
ttyl
rex scates

aka allanon and no i am not a sock.

Ya still haven't answered the question...

You NEVER answered the questions put to you.

You never provided proof beyond your self-admittedly unsubstantiated website.

You proved incapable of the most basic social graces asked of you.

You never addressed the official reply, instead repeatedly telling people that you were trying to educate them without actually providing facts.

You will not be missed.

[Zane5100]

Hmmm...

Well, he's browsing the forum still, so he isn't that gone.

[BlueBirdPoof]

I should have used G. Bush instead.

Beautiful, Rob. It gets directly to the not only the stupidity, but to the willful stupidity, topped off with the arrogance of "I don't have to bother to learn anything, I know everything that's important" quality of some of these posts.

[stuart]

I think, as I sort of suspected a while ago, this guy (these people) doesn't give a shit about the environment beyond it being serviceable for their desires; kicking up dust in his car. He clearly has an ideological problem with the event.

This last post where the ass throw's out the eptithet 'you liberals' seals the deal for me.

It's pretty clear to me now that the basic emotion is 'those hippie radical freaks are gettin nekid, doin drugs, and screwin up my god given right to do donuts on the playa in my 4 banger!'

[BlueBirdPoof]

Point taken Zane. I should have said something more along the lines of "Although persons with Down's syndrome are as subject to other brain and personality disorders as any of the rest of us, most of them have very fine social skills and as a group they are often considered charming."
(Not exactly a poetic sentence, but it's more factually accurate.)
The problem is I'm not really qualified to act as a spokesperson for all persons with disabilities. I have a certain set of experiences and have decided that at times participants on this board need to be nudged and reminded when they get sloppy. I'm certain that there are a good percentage of persons with disabilities--especially learning disabilities and mental illness--but unjonharley is the only other person here I can think of that is "out" about it. So, in the spirit of participation I have stepped up to do my best, sometimes slipping in to prissiness, or awkwardness, or innaccuracies. It's thusfar been a thankless task, but damned if I'm going to let it fall by the wayside, or let anyone think that if they choose to come out on such issues that they will have no support.

Stuart--this is the second time you've dinged me in a way I found more smug than helpful on this sort of issue. Third time and you're my replacement.

[BlueBirdPoof]

you will all be happy i am now leaving.

I gotta love how he gives himself the magical power to make us all happy. Whoever said "child" got that right.

[Tancorix]

At least Rex Scates / Allanon2 / Sparks / insert new ID here got his whois info updated as I almost bagged me a new domain. I would have parked it on some server somewhere and let it fade into oblivion. He came so close to losing it. So close.

[Zane5100]

you will all be happy i am now leaving.

I gotta love how he gives himself the magical power to make us all happy. Whoever said "child" got that right.

At least he got one thing right.

[allanon2]

if you guys can't even see that allanon is not the same person as stopbmorg, sparks, erspect the planet etc... ( i know who each of those peopel are and they each have their own opinions.

then you have no basis in reality. you think someone woudl purposly log in, create a website, and then make multipel accounts just for this?

you are so delusional. have the admins do a ip search and you will see differnt ip's (i know it can be faked)
but get a clue people conspiracies rarely exist. and this is far from being one.

the website will continue to exist. and you peple here will live in your disiullsional world without me. i might log in to see what people are saying and see how big of a idiot they are. I hopwe the others will continue the fight here and see if they can get people to think for themselves and look at the ideas at face value. ( i don't control them they are nto socks, so i don't know what they will do)

and if you would liek to visit some time coem to boulder creek and look me up
rex scates
aka allanon

maybe you will have a normal conversation if others aren't jumping on to criticise what you have to say. maybe we can all be logical.
on this board I feel its a hopeless idea. but i do hope others try,

At least Rex Scates / Allanon2 / Sparks / insert new ID here got his whois info updated as I almost bagged me a new domain. I would have parked it on some server somewhere and let it fade into oblivion. He came so close to losing it. So close.

[stuart]

BBP, replacement for what?

just as you did not want someone to 'get sloppy' with their special olympics comment, I did not want you to get sloppy with the sort of generalization about how all the mentally handicapped are really sweet. They are people, just like the rest of us, and as a result some of them suck and some of them don't. As a person who spent the opening several years of his life in and out of wheelchairs and on and off of crutches I am perhaps overly sensitive to these generalizations, positive and negative, about the handicapped. 'Oh, look at that sweet boy in the wheelchair.' How did she know I was sweet? I coulda been super nasty and had 666 tattoed on my scalp. We are all just people.

[sparks]

At least Rex Scates / Allanon2 / Sparks / insert new ID here got his whois info updated as I almost bagged me a new domain. I would have parked it on some server somewhere and let it fade into oblivion. He came so close to losing it. So close.

This never ceases to crack me up! How can you guys think that we are all the same person? Read the posts, notice the distinct writing styles, check IP logs, etc., etc... If we are all the same person, we (I, whatever the case may be) deserve(s) an Oscar.

And, since I was not present at the transect walk, I cannot say for sure, but I recall stopbmorg (who, incidentally, is not the same person as allanon2) say that he and a few other people had to work at that piece of rebar for a couple minutes with a pair of pliers to get it out, since all but a few inches of the 2' piece were hammered into the ground.

EDIT: I think it's implied, but yes, I'm sure he took it with him. Since we're not the same person, I don't know for sure.

-Rodney

[bgirl]

you will all be happy i am now leaving.

i feel that i put out a black and white argument but no one seems to think so. was it so simple that peopel overlooked it? i have no idea


aka allanon and no i am not a sock.

The problem or flaw with this train of thought ,Allanon, is you have forgotten about the grey area.Nothing in life is as simple as black and white, surely you can see this now? And just out of curiosity, what are you still doing here?

[Tancorix]

For someone who said he was leaving Allanon2 sure made a fast re-appearance.

As for the rest of the debate, I've been there done that. About a month ago I played 2 sock puppets along with myself and I know how the game is played. I had different PC's with different IP's / ways to connect to the Internet. I did it for several reasons and the main one was to understand how socks work and how they try to play the game. So yeah, you might deserve an honorary Oscar (R) for technical achievement because it's very possible that one character could be behind all this.

One other hallmark of the Araceli sock puppet shell was to vehemently deny that the ID was a sock. And it worked for a bit.

In the end though the experiment almost cost me friends and acquaintances that I would be lost without. It wasn't worth it. I explained my motives and came clean, and now I'm using the tricks I learned to help the admins mount a better defense against this crap. It's going to be very hard to come from a position of weakened credibility and rebuild with this group but it can be done. Move on from the denials, present good arguments based on fact, listen to the feedback even if it stings, and let's get past this crap.

Edited to add: I put the explanations in so when I call out a sock on something, people will know where I'm coming from and that I'm not just running my mouth. I'm not trying to seek attention, support, whatever. It's just how it is.

[stopbmorg]

From the hole it was in and was handed to Vito Carmosino of BLM after that transect was finished.

At this point, I'm not sure what additional facts you folks want. The site has scans of memos and letters obtained from BLM. The site lists two ecologists who have a like view. The site shows that among BLM, the transect methodology is in question and probably has been since at least 2001 (the first Bilbo memo) and stil lwas as of Summer 2003 (the Cooper-Farschon memo).

It seems that isn't enough. OK. It seems the photos aren't enough. OK. What *is* enough then? I mean, I realize this is a rationally inquisitive audience, but if the information on the site is enough to get (and keep) a newspaper reporter for a decent paper involved and interested, why isn't it enough to get folks to do their own asking and looking?

I'm sure some folks will continue the ad hominem attacks and there isn't much that can be done about that. I'm sure some folks will look at the site and ask some hard questions of themselves, the LLC or BLM. I suppose some folks will think it's all a big conspiracy and belongs in some rag mag. I don't know for sure, but what I do know is that the pressure is on, and it will be kept on all fronts. We've made an impact here in at least getting the word out - the web logs tell us that much. The BLM took heed, even, which can be hard to do. That's a good thing. That makes them aware of what others are thinking and saying.

Now, if anyone wants further proof of any of my statements (we're more than one person), drop me an email at the hotmail address and I'll do my best to provide that proof, etc.

Oh, and if Dotster had taken the domain, it wouldn't have mattered. There's a dozen other good domain names out there for this. A small setback, at most, is what it would have been.

[KellY]

Allanon might not have been a sock puppet, but he certainly did choose his nom-de-board from one of the most blatant Tolkien rip-offs ever...

Since this seems to be wrapping up (hallelujah!), I find myself curious: just what the hell were these guys' motivations (assuming that there were at least two of them)? I think we can safely strike environmental concerns right out. Ex-event goers with a grudge? Dumbasses who wanted the playa to be their private racecourse and didn't like to share? A front for the minority of locals who don't like the event (yes Virginia, it is a minority)? A front for the various intersets who are maneuvering to control the area's resources (probalby not - I imagine they'd be more competent if they were)? I guess we'll never know...but really, it's worth the wondering to have them gone.

[Zane5100]

From the hole it was in and was handed to Vito Carmosino of BLM after that transect was finished.

Finally, someone answered a question.

Thank you.

At this point, I'm not sure what additional facts you folks want. The site has scans of memos and letters obtained from BLM. The site lists two ecologists who have a like view. The site shows that among BLM, the transect methodology is in question and probably has been since at least 2001 (the first Bilbo memo) and stil lwas as of Summer 2003 (the Cooper-Farschon memo).

It seems that isn't enough. OK. It seems the photos aren't enough. OK. What *is* enough then?

Bad .jpgs of letters don't grab much traction.

Try pulling a couple of years on DPW doing set-up and clean-up. That *might* pull some more weight.

[dragonfly Jafe]

Seems that some of the tactics posted on that website about Trolling are being used against ALLANON2. He could be the worst eco-terrorist, dump oil into drinking water, kill kittens, or whatever else makes him bad in your book, and none of that would have anything to do with the actions of BM/LLC. I felt that there was some progress being made, then a rash of pseudo-personal attacks killed it. Maybe ALLANON2 is totally wrong, but if so, wouldn't it be nice to be able to prove it once and for all? Badger (and the admins) did a pretty good job of refuting some of ALLANON2's claims, but does that mean we are perfect and need not ever seek improvement?

I see the point that is being made, if ALLANON2 doesn't care enough too remove the rebar, what is he really trying to achieve? Making BRD safer/cleaner, or getting rid of BM/LLC?

Maybe he has a personal agenda against BM/LLC, maybe he really is a philanthropist that cannot spell and cannot pick up a 24" piece of rebar. Doesn't matter - until these claims are examined and soundly refuted (and archived in a public area for the future), they will provide fuel for future attacks against our community. Maybe this is old news to those of us that have been around for more than a few years, but our community is constantly growing and expanding. Everything posted was news to me (except the part about oil leaks, I got to clean up one in 2002).

At the very least, can this thread be archived for future reference?

regards, Dragonfly Jafe

[technopatra]

At the very least, can this thread be archived for future reference?

Absolutely. We're keeping everything.

[sparks]

As for the rest of the debate, I've been there done that. About a month ago I played 2 sock puppets along with myself and I know how the game is played. I had different PC's with different IP's / ways to connect to the Internet. I did it for several reasons and the main one was to understand how socks work and how they try to play the game. So yeah, you might deserve an honorary Oscar (R) for technical achievement because it's very possible that one character could be behind all this.

One other hallmark of the Araceli sock puppet shell was to vehemently deny that the ID was a sock. And it worked for a bit.

In the end though the experiment almost cost me friends and acquaintances that I would be lost without. It wasn't worth it. I explained my motives and came clean, and now I'm using the tricks I learned to help the admins mount a better defense against this crap. It's going to be very hard to come from a position of weakened credibility and rebuild with this group but it can be done. Move on from the denials, present good arguments based on fact, listen to the feedback even if it stings, and let's get past this crap.

Edited to add: I put the explanations in so when I call out a sock on something, people will know where I'm coming from and that I'm not just running my mouth. I'm not trying to seek attention, support, whatever. It's just how it is.

What exactly is your rationale for calling us sock puppets? We have Allanon2, sparks, stopbmorg, and respecttheplanet. All of us have different points of view and writing styles that are very evident in their posts. Besides the fact that we all share a similar *basic* goal (with entirely different means to that end), I don't see any basis for your determination. Is it just a gut feeling? A person would have to truly have a multiple personality disorder to pull off sock puppetry of this caliber.

Hell... until you explained it, I thought 'sock puppet' was just some internet lingo term that I hadn't caught onto yet.

[Chai Guy]

I find myself curious: just what the hell were these guys' motivations (assuming that there were at least two of them)?

I find myself asking the same question. It seems like a lot of work (setting up the website, taking the pictures, submitting the FOIA requests, etc.) just so you could you could race your Dodge Neon on the playa (and isn't there a few hundred square miles of playa that we aren't using?) Environmentalists? I'm with Kelly on this one, besides there are much more worthwhile targets for real eco activism. Locals? Again, I agree with Kelly it appears these guys aren't from the area and from most accounts the locals seem pretty tolerant of us.

No, my money is on disgruntled former volunteers/particpants. I still find it interesting that in their initial posting frenzy they choose to add to WSPR's threads, is there some kind of connection there?

[BlueBirdPoof]

What exactly is your rationale for calling us sock puppets? We have Allanon2, sparks, stopbmorg, and respecttheplanet. All of us have different points of view and writing styles that are very evident in their posts. Besides the fact that we all share a similar *basic* goal (with entirely different means to that end), I don't see any basis for your determination. Is it just a gut feeling? A person would have to truly have a multiple personality disorder to pull off sock puppetry of this caliber.

As a courtesy:

As might be inferred from Tancorix's (sp) post we have had a sock puppet problem on this board. As I noted earlier, lurking for a few days or reading up on past posts before posting yourself, would have saved you a tactical error. Also, if you had introduced yourself ("hello/I am squiggle/this is my experience/this is my concern) instead of going straight into attack mode you would have had a lot more credibility. If you were to go back and read the past 6 weeks of posts on various threads, you'd find out that some of the initial hostility was because of a not unreasonable suspicion that you may have been a sock of a particularly hostile, axe-grinding poster. Subsequent hostility was sparked by your defencive manuvers.

[BlueBirdPoof]

No, my money is on disgruntled former volunteers/particpants. I still find it interesting that in their initial posting frenzy they choose to add to WSPR's threads, is there some kind of connection there?

Dang--wspr seemed so classically "troubled loner."

[Chai Guy]

What exactly is your rationale for calling us sock puppets?

All the Login names appeared at roughly the same time. The various names corroborated facts presented by each other. One Login would pose questions, only to have them immediately answered by another. Each login vehemently denied that they were a sock and tried to quantify the existence of each other. Classic Sock Puppetry!

[enthropic]

''It was like hearing a debate on nuclear physics between Albert Einstein and George Bush Jr.''
Rob

A very accurate comparison Rob. However, I would seriously pay to see that debate

[Licentious Queen]

This Rex guy sounds crazy. He's hurting BR just as much as he is accusing the citizens of BRC of doing. I'm confused. Maybe I don't get the whole picture...

[Badger]

you will all be happy i am now leaving.

Adios Allanon2. Feel free to come back anytime you're in the mood for another collective online ass reaming. We'll be here. Waiting.

Kisses.