CRIME! GUNS! second amendment?

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yamaz
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question

Post by yamaz » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:58 pm

Well look I don't care about having or using a gun out there at the event, but I do want to carry keep a gun in my car along the road trip for safety reasons..... Am I allowed to keep my gun locked up in case in the trunk of a car then? ... If not then how am I going to be able to take a gun in the car for the road trip?

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mzfit
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Post by mzfit » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:08 am

yeah....ummmm....you can't! Unless you make some arrangement with someone to keep it for you OUTSIDE of the event prior to showing up at the gate.

yamaz
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lame

Post by yamaz » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:49 am

Well if that is true than burning man just lost points in my book....you should at least be able to keep it locked up in a trunk..

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Post by Isotopia » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:03 pm

Well look I don't care about having or using a gun out there at the event, but I do want to carry keep a gun in my car along the road trip for safety reasons..... Am I allowed to keep my gun locked up in case in the trunk of a car then? ... If not then how am I going to be able to take a gun in the car for the road trip?
No guns are allowed in the event.

It really is very simple.

No guns are allowed in the event.

If you get checked at the gate you will be told to turn around and deal with your gun in whatever means you deem necessary. Why?

Because no guns are allowed in the event.

Jesus Christ is there any simpler a way to convey this?

yamaz
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Post by yamaz » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:20 pm

more specifics would have sufficed...lest you not forget the roots of this event.

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Sensei
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Post by Sensei » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:36 pm

They brought guns to Baker Beach?

yamaz
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uhh

Post by yamaz » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:53 pm

Don't fucking play dumb with me...there were plenty of guns when blak rock city was formed....not to mention I'm sure people had guns on that cali beach or in there cars nearby. I'm not a gun fanatic but for a long road trip I would rather have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it...and that is my constitutional right.

yamaz
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hah

Post by yamaz » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:18 pm

It really is very simple.

No guns are allowed in the event.

If you get checked at the gate you will be told to turn around and deal with your gun in whatever means you deem necessary. Why?

Because no guns are allowed in the event.

Jesus Christ is there any simpler a way to convey this?

LoL and no drugs are 'allowed' in the event but nobody follows that!

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Sensei
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Post by Sensei » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:26 pm

Okay, there used to be the drive-by shooting range (notice the past tense) and at one point I think the postal workers were actually required to be armed (again, past tense).

I've known a number of women who've driven cross country to this event and they don't feel the need to carry a gun. Then again, they're pretty tough and could handle themselves.

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Badger
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Post by Badger » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:58 pm

Yes, there was a drive by shooting range. I was there when there was a range. Every person I ever met that carried a gun to the event back then locked their gun up when not using it. The idea of locking it one's trunk is a moot point.

Fact is, no matter where you store your firearm it is in the event.

There are no guns allowed at the event.
Don't fucking play dumb with me...there were plenty of guns when blak rock city was formed....not to mention I'm sure people had guns on that cali beach or in there cars nearby. I'm not a gun fanatic but for a long road trip I would rather have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it...and that is my constitutional right.
Dumb seems to be getting... dumber here.

To date, no one is suggesting that you don't have a Constitutional right to have a gun. Or to carry a gun in places that allow guns. The Burning man Festival does not allow guns...

Ergo, There are no guns allowed at the event.

Why? Because even though the event is held on government land the permitting process essentially is a lease of sorts for the LLC to have the event on that land for a specified period of time. It's sort of like a big private party where the LLC can make any rules it deems necessary in order to protect its interests or reduce the likelihood of injury. Some private clubs won't let you in without a tie. Other require shoes. Like many private clubs Burningman has its own set of rules that it gets to make and gets to enforce. So, guess what one of those rules might be.

Give up?

Well, if you want to go to the event you cannot bring a gun. If you bring a gun to the event and it is discovered that you have done so, the Black Rock Rangers are empowered to tell you to leave.

And they will tell you to leave.

And you will comply.

And, in another year, you can come back to the event where you will be welcome. But your gun will not be.

Why?

Because guns aren't allowed at the event.
Desert dogs drink deep.

yamaz
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ok

Post by yamaz » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:01 pm

I have my reasons and it is not just for self defense and you do not know anything about me so don't play that card...

Furthermore there are a ton of prohibited things at this event which are widely disregarded because they are hypocritical to the very fundamentals proclaimed by the event and this country. I don't care for their lying morality.

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Post by Sensei » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:16 pm

I give up. You win, Einstein.

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Badger
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Post by Badger » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:19 pm

I have my reasons and it is not just for self defense and you do not know anything about me so don't play that card...
You may believe you have your reasons.

You may even have valid reasons.

But that's not what's in contention here.

In fact this really isn't a discussion to dissect your wants or your needs or your justification for wanting to carry a gun to the event. All of that is moot.

It doesn't matter. Really, it doesn't matter a damn bit. Because, at the end of the day. The rule remains.

You will not be allowed into the event if it is discovered that you have a gun.

Period.

The only 'game' going on here is wondering what you don't seem to understand about a single irreducible regulation that you continue to jump around it like a four year old having a tantrum.

Where you are correct is in saying that I don't know you. You're right - I don't. Nor is it likely I ever will.

I don't keep the company of fools. Same can be said of idiots.
Desert dogs drink deep.

yamaz
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sad

Post by yamaz » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:32 pm

Its pretty sad that you resort to personal insults and name callling over what is an obvious contradiction of values. I don't suppose you have ever broken any rules of this event or in life right? Hell if everyone followed along like pawns, than this event would truly be a bore.

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ygmir
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Post by ygmir » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:47 pm

Yamaz:
could it be your confusing Badger, et al, and their statement and repetition of the rules,

with,

they're either writing the rule or enforcing it?

Ultimately, you will make the decision regarding observance the rule.......

they are just telling you what it says, and, attempting to explain from whence it came........

I don't see them stating, personally, that you can't do something, as in it's "their" rule. And, I don't see them, personally, threatening to enforce said rule or consequences.....

I do see you reacting as if they are........

It would seem your argument would be better served with the Rangers, and LEO's on site.......or, earlier, through correspondence.........

You rolls the dice, you takes your chances.......
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Laughing Forest
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Post by Laughing Forest » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:56 pm

I'm curious, can I carry a gun to Burningman if its just a really small gun?

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wedeliver
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Post by wedeliver » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:04 pm

Laughing Forest wrote:I'm curious, can I carry a gun to Burningman if its just a really small gun?
do you mean like,

"this is my weapon,
this is my gun,
this is for shooting,
this is for fun."
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penrose
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Post by penrose » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:32 pm

Cheezits H. Christ I just had to jump in. What contradiction of values? Guns are not allowed in. Drugs aren't either. People use drugs at risk of expulsion or arrest. We all decide about the risk while out on the dark of the playa. You want to keep a gun in your trunk, go for it. If it's found, out you go. I don't see a contradiction.

That out of my hair, I'm pretty strongly 2nd Amdmt but I've driven all over the West and never, ever wished I had a firearm -- except of course when I saw a nice natural target range out in the middle of nowhere, but that's another matter. I see people who have to carry guns around as extra-large pussies. Used to know guys who took them backpacking too. WTF? Scared of bears?

If you have a legit need based on your relationship with La Eme then I take back the pussy part.

retrosurf
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no responsible gun owner ..

Post by retrosurf » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:16 am

.. would bring a gun to Burning Man.

There is simply no way you can discharge it without hitting a bystander.
You're surrounded by a wall of meat in pretty much all directions, and
one of the first things that a responsible gun owner thinks is "what
is downrange of my target?".

So responsible gun owners DON'T bring their guns to Burning Man (now).
The reason they are prohibited is because of you, the irresponsible gun
owner.

From an informal survey of my friends and acquaintances that
shoot frequently (in my neighborhood), I would say that about half of the
average gun owners are dangerously lethal fools. And I'm talking about
firsthand reports and things that I have witnessed, like overhead bullets,
impacts within 10 feet of people outside, people directly downrange of
targets, and bullet holes in buildings.

I'm a gun owning, animal killing burner, and I approve of this policy.

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Box Burner
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Re: no responsible gun owner ..

Post by Box Burner » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:53 pm

retrosurf wrote:.. would bring a gun to Burning Man.

There is simply no way you can discharge it without hitting a bystander.
You're surrounded by a wall of meat in pretty much all directions, and
one of the first things that a responsible gun owner thinks is "what
is downrange of my target?".

So responsible gun owners DON'T bring their guns to Burning Man (now).
The reason they are prohibited is because of you, the irresponsible gun
owner.

From an informal survey of my friends and acquaintances that
shoot frequently (in my neighborhood), I would say that about half of the
average gun owners are dangerously lethal fools. And I'm talking about
firsthand reports and things that I have witnessed, like overhead bullets,
impacts within 10 feet of people outside, people directly downrange of
targets, and bullet holes in buildings.

I'm a gun owning, animal killing burner, and I approve of this policy.
We have a winner!

Thougt I was going to get to the end of this thread and have to point this out myself. Thank you retrosurf.
Dance in the heart of chaos. . . . .

ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστος βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- Σωκράτης

.

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gyre
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Post by gyre » Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:14 pm

Are some of you folks superstitious about guns or what?

They aren't magical in terms of self defense or creating some type of sudden, unreasonable danger.

They are effective at holding a predator at arm's reach without violence, sometimes.
The ones that won't stop (not uncommon), will kill you if you don't kill them.

Sensei wrote: I've known a number of women who've driven cross country to this event and they don't feel the need to carry a gun. Then again, they're pretty tough and could handle themselves.
I'm not sure I know what this means.

I have fairly extensive martial arts training and I carry a handgun on me or have one within feet of me all year, except at burning man.
I consider it a less lethal means of self defense, than hand to hand combat.
I find that warning someone violent that I can "handle myself", besides being tactically brainless (losing the element of surprise), doesn't alleviate the situation, instead escalating it.

As an example, if I am stopped and I hear a tap on the window and I look to see a weapon pointed at me through the glass, what's my self defense option without a gun?

I slept like a baby at rest stops knowing I had some self defense capability.
And it's nice to not have to worry about police problems either with a carry permit valid almost everywhere (meaning california).
But I suppose with their insane laws they have eliminated all violence there.


Not legal advice, but the atf considers a weapon sufficiently disassembled so as to not function to be gun parts and NOT a weapon.
This often means removing the firing pin and in the case of the USPS mail, shipping the pin separately.
Other people may have differing opinions, but when it comes to this, they don't count.
ATF writes the rules.
Common sense must be used, of course.
Law enforcement are notoriously ignorant of actual law and long educational conversations with them are tedious.
Translation= Don't be a schmuck.


And while I don't feel a need to carry at burning man, it is hardly violence free.
I have been threatened at about half the events, rather seriously two years ago and with no chance of intervention by others or rangers.
FYI, if you're still screeching threats at me and I've gone silent, I'm not intimidated.
I'm trying to decide how much blood will be shed to end the situation and I may already be contemplating you in the past tense.
Martial arts is not fighting, film notwithstanding, it is the ending of fights, quickly, by incapacitating your attacker with violence and often with permanent or deadly injuries.
Yet somehow a handgun is more frightening?
Violence is violence.
Don't kid yourself.

You think someone is more or less dangerous with or without a gun?
You're a fool.
It only makes a difference at a distance.
That is why it works for self defense.


Penrose, you're welcome to come visit and show how brave you are.
Next time I'm threatened by a group with guns, you can stand between me and them.
For background, the guy checking on my house and storage, carries a kalashnikov when he does so.
You won't need that, of course.

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gyre
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Re: no responsible gun owner ..

Post by gyre » Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:37 pm

retrosurf wrote:.. would bring a gun to Burning Man.

There is simply no way you can discharge it without hitting a bystander.
You're surrounded by a wall of meat in pretty much all directions, and
one of the first things that a responsible gun owner thinks is "what
is downrange of my target?".

So responsible gun owners DON'T bring their guns to Burning Man (now).
The reason they are prohibited is because of you, the irresponsible gun
owner.

From an informal survey of my friends and acquaintances that
shoot frequently (in my neighborhood), I would say that about half of the
average gun owners are dangerously lethal fools. And I'm talking about
firsthand reports and things that I have witnessed, like overhead bullets,
impacts within 10 feet of people outside, people directly downrange of
targets, and bullet holes in buildings.

I'm a gun owning, animal killing burner, and I approve of this policy.
I thought the question was about a locked up stored weapon.
Did I miss the question about random firing?

The rules about guns at burning man are clearly based on nothing but hysteria, just like the ebay and craigslist rules.
I don't know about you guys, but the burn I just attended had a large number of very powerful and dangerous machines, in full operation close to people and not locked up in a trunk for the duration.


I'm not suggesting it would be easy to bring back the drive-by range out there.
But be a little bit rational.
An unloaded gun is just a stick.
A locked up, unloaded gun is only ballast.

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ygmir
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Post by ygmir » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:22 am

1:58...........The Duke agrees with you, Gyre......



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Mister Satan
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Post by Mister Satan » Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:45 am

I am a nonconformist artist that is totally pro 2nd amendment. As a private event I have no problem with Burning man being gun free. But I am curious what the reaction would be if Burning Man decided to be an anti-first amendment event. Or God forbid an anti-gay sex event. A private event on private property can have what ever rules they like. They can ban guns and allow cross burnings if they choose. A private event on private property is free to pick and choose which bits of the Bill of Rights they will allow it's participants. If you don't like the rules you can choose to stay home.


As far as the crime question goes.. I think that it is very interesting that Canada has more than than twice the reported rapes as the US. Canadian scumbags are well aware that women in their country are not allowed to own a handgun and are easy prey. If you want to rape a woman in Texas you have to worry if she has a gun in her purse, car , or home.

If you support gun control (like Adolf Hitler) and you are cool with women being raped. You are more than welcome to respond to my post :D
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Ugly Dougly
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:45 am

Only gong-fu is allowed at BRC.
Strictly enforced by my guards.

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:26 am

Mister Satan wrote: As far as the crime question goes.. I think that it is very interesting that Canada has more than than twice the reported rapes as the US. Canadian scumbags are well aware that women in their country are not allowed to own a handgun and are easy prey. If you want to rape a woman in Texas you have to worry if she has a gun in her purse, car , or home.
I wouldn't hang anythign on the reported rape rate anywhere. It's a very under-reported crime, and there's no clear way to actually know what's going on.
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gyre
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Post by gyre » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:39 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
Mister Satan wrote: As far as the crime question goes.. I think that it is very interesting that Canada has more than than twice the reported rapes as the US. Canadian scumbags are well aware that women in their country are not allowed to own a handgun and are easy prey. If you want to rape a woman in Texas you have to worry if she has a gun in her purse, car , or home.
I wouldn't hang anythign on the reported rape rate anywhere. It's a very under-reported crime, and there's no clear way to actually know what's going on.
True enough.
Canada may just be much better at getting crimes reported.
I suspect self defense is a factor though.
This type of personal violence is where such things are factors.


The rate of robbery and rape here has been sharply affected as the carry rate goes higher, and reporting approaches haven't changed.
At least half of all permits go to women now.
There have been some sharp shifts in certain crimes.

This area is believed to have the highest rate of rape in the country.

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Post by dr.placebo » Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:56 pm

Mister Satan wrote:As far as the crime question goes.. I think that it is very interesting that Canada has more than than twice the reported rapes as the US. Canadian scumbags are well aware that women in their country are not allowed to own a handgun and are easy prey. If you want to rape a woman in Texas you have to worry if she has a gun in her purse, car , or home.
This reasoning is faulty, partly because the definition of rape differs between the U.S. and Canada. Texas is far more permissive than New York about gun possession, but has twice the rate of reported rape (US Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2004). Further, Europe has far more restrictive gun laws than the U.S., but has substantially lower rates of violent crime.
The proportion of Americans killed by firearms per year is more than seven and a half times greater than the comparable proportion of residents in the 10 developed countries with the next highest rates of firearm homicides.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

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Mister Satan
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Post by Mister Satan » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:19 pm

In my opinion denying travelers the right to defend themselves is unethical and unconstitutional.

Long story short. I am willing to temporarily give up some of my civil rights to attend Burning Man. But I draw the line at letting the rangers or LE search my camp without warrant or probable cause. Or being compelled to testify against myself :D
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Re: lame

Post by TomServo » Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:29 pm

yamaz wrote:Well if that is true than burning man just lost points in my book....you should at least be able to keep it locked up in a trunk..
What are you worried about? Getting ambushed by hippies? I brought my ak several times to the playa....but on 4th of July! The event itself is too big for guns. Either your truely paranoid, or you're posturing for the fucking NRA. They never sent me a sticker, so I quit!
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