perspective

[TomServo]

I got in touch with my first girlfriend. It turns out she's back, after a 2nd tour in Iraq. I toned down the anti-war rhetoric. Those lost 23 years seemed more important. We were supposed to talk, for the first time in 23 years, and catch up. I wondered why she hadn't called after a few hours, then I got the news that, her being the wife of a commanding officer, had a job to do. As one more of our kids just died, in Iraq.
When we talked before, she was very gratious. Understandiing my view of the war, and explaining to me, why she does it. I've nothing but admiration for her and those that fight with her.[/img]

[ygmir]

yup, they've got my admiration, and good will, as well.

[epic_elite]

yeah,

i have all the support in the world for our troops.

i know a few of them personally. im sure most everyone knows atleast someone who's overseas.

i just wish people would understand there is a difference between supporting our troops and supporting the war.

i think it's a 'forest from the trees' thing.

[C.f.M.]

Plenty of the troops don't support the war, but they support doing the job they signed up for, the ideals the war purportedly is for, etc.

Not to mention the amazing things we have accomplished over there (despite the horrible illegalites occuring, contractor and otherwise, and general brutalities of war - so, so sad for the soldiers and the Iraqis).

Check out the documentary Tattooed Under Fire.

Oh, and The Way We Get By is just a must-see.

I've had my own father there, a friend stay there...forever (because he died) and this time next year my boyfriend will be in Afghanistan. My cousins leave this spring.

I send packages through anysoldier.com - and Freedom Cakes are fun. I got my dad one for his bday this year.

http://www.bakemeawish.com/freedom-cake.php?id=39

http://www.soldiersangels.org/

[TomServo]

Yeah, I know theirs opposition amongst the troops. I guess its easy to forget when everyone here is so sharply divided.

We actually did talk, last night, and she's recovering from a catagory III concussion. Not exactly sure if it was a deliberate attack. She suffers seizures now, and is grounded, for the moment.

I'm very proud of her, yet at the same time soo saddend by this whole clusterfuck.

[TomServo]

I'm pissed now. Going after BinLaden in afghanistan made sense...plus, we owed them, after the cold war. But, why Iraq? Where we knew "nutcase" wasn't! FUCK George W Bush! I hope he can live with American blood on his hands. Afghanistan, our primary goal, became a sideshow after Iraq. And, as my dear friend explained, helping out in Haiti, will stretch our military even thinner.

If you want to point fingers, at Obama...just remember the retard in chief, that got us in this mess.

[Trishntek]

...just remember the retard in chief, that got us in this mess.

Oh you must be referring to Bill Clinton who did nothing about Bin Laden after the first WTC bombing, the bombing of the U.S. Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya or the U.S.S. Cole? Then there was the Fatawa Bin Laden wrote in 1998 which basically declared war against the United States. Plus Slick Willy failed to pull the trigger on Bin Laden at least 3 times during his 2 terms in office.

Remember that Zarkowi whathisface fuckwad with the one leg in Iraq? He was the al-Qaeda community organizer there. And oh by the way, he got his leg amputated in Iraq, where he fled to from Afganistan, before we started Iraqi Freedom. He came there at the invitation of Hussein.

And one other thing,,,, the United States military never left Iraq after the 1991 war! Our planes were being fired upon while enforcing the cease fire for over TEN YEARS. During this 10 years, Hussein was funding suicide bombings and importation of Russian arms to Taliban/al-Qaeda.

[TomServo]

...just remember the retard in chief, that got us in this mess.

Oh you must be referring to Bill Clinton who did nothing about Bin Laden after the first WTC bombing, the bombing of the U.S. Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya or the U.S.S. Cole? Then there was the Fatawa Bin Laden wrote in 1998 which basically declared war against the United States. Plus Slick Willy failed to pull the trigger on Bin Laden at least 3 times during his 2 terms in office.

Remember that Zarkowi whathisface fuckwad with the one leg in Iraq? He was the al-Qaeda community organizer there. And oh by the way, he got his leg amputated in Iraq, where he fled to from Afganistan, before we started Iraqi Freedom. He came there at the invitation of Hussein.

And one other thing,,,, the United States military never left Iraq after the 1991 war! Our planes were being fired upon while enforcing the cease fire for over TEN YEARS. During this 10 years, Hussein was funding suicide bombings and importation of Russian arms to Taliban/al-Qaeda.

Maybe him too, but once all was said and done, we went after BinLaden, and somehow found our way in Iraq. Now who should we blame for setting up Hussein? Al Qaeda was fundamentally opposed to Hussein, despite being both Sunni Muslim. Truth is W tried to finish his daddy's war. Even though George Sr. was smart enough, to NOT take out Saddam. Either way, our troops in Afghanistan are suffering, because of Herr Bush's grudge match. And thousands of American kids have paid fo it with their lives. We created Al Qaeda in Iraq!

[Trishntek]

Fundamentally opposed, yes. United in the destruction of Isreal and the United States? Absolutely!

[Trishntek]

Best I can tell, our worst mistakes in either war has been two things: 1, instead of surgical precision to be nice, we should have annihilated and thoroughly defeated their entire society as done in Japan and Germany. 2, the public should not have been informed until it already happened instead of all the arm chair generals we have these days.

[TomServo]

So why don't we nuke the whole middle east region? Saddam Hussein wasn't so stupid, to support a group he would NEVER allow in his own country.

[Trishntek]

So why don't we nuke the whole middle east region? Saddam Hussein wasn't so stupid, to support a group he would NEVER allow in his own country.

The 9/11 Commission Report, page 66, paragraph 2:
"In mid-1998, the situation reversed; it was Iraq that reportedly took the initiative. In March 1998, after Bin Ladin's public fatwa against the United States, two al Qaeda members reportedly went to Iraq to meet with Iraqi intelligence. In July, an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with Bin Ladin. Sources reported that one, or perhaps both of these meetings was apparently arranged through Bin Ladin's Egyptian deputy, Zawahiri, who had ties of his own to the Iraqis. In 1998, Iraq was under intensifying U.S. pressure, which culminated in a series of large air attacks in December."

[Trishntek]

in paragraph 3, it goes on to say:
"Similar meetings between Iraqui officials and Bin Ladin or his aides may have occurred in 1999 during a period of some reported strains with the Taliban. According to the reporting, Iraqi officials offered Bin Ladin a safe haven in Iraq,,,"

[Laughing Forest]

Best I can tell, our worst mistakes in either war has been two things:

Are you able to stand upright without the use of your knuckles?

I'm genuinely curious.






BTW, below pretty much sums up what I think of your opinion.

Ta.

[TomServo]

So why don't we nuke the whole middle east region? Saddam Hussein wasn't so stupid, to support a group he would NEVER allow in his own country.

The 9/11 Commission Report, page 66, paragraph 2:
"In mid-1998, the situation reversed; it was Iraq that reportedly took the initiative. In March 1998, after Bin Ladin's public fatwa against the United States, two al Qaeda members reportedly went to Iraq to meet with Iraqi intelligence. In July, an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with Bin Ladin. Sources reported that one, or perhaps both of these meetings was apparently arranged through Bin Ladin's Egyptian deputy, Zawahiri, who had ties of his own to the Iraqis. In 1998, Iraq was under intensifying U.S. pressure, which culminated in a series of large air attacks in December."

Yeah I remember that report, and if memory serves correct, it didn't quite pan out. Either way, BinLaden was in Afghanistan...or near its border. And, a huge recource has been wasted, in Iraq. Now killing the head with those fucks won't kill the body. But its the best start.

[ygmir]

hahhaaa,

*Laughing Forest* is back.........


*giggling*.......

[Trishntek]

Best I can tell, our worst mistakes in either war has been two things:

Are you able to stand upright without the use of your knuckles?

I'm genuinely curious.






BTW, below pretty much sums up what I think of your opinion.

Ta.

When fact becomes opinion, we're all screwed and visa versa.

[Ugly Dougly]

Hey, my friends at Lockheed told me about a gizmo they are developing. It works from space sattelites and can see individual people on the ground. What it does is find people who are wearing black hats. Since these are usually the Bad Guys, it sends a powerful laser beam down on each one of them and kills them instantly. It should become operational by fiscal year 2011.

[theCryptofishist]

[Trishntek]

Ugly Dougly said, "What it does is find people who are wearing black hats."


I'm guessing ntek's bald pate would probably break the camera and we'll all be safe! *stashing black hats in garage*

[curiousgnate]

thank you laughing forest. just a few quotes

"I make no distinction between combatants and non-combatants. Those who confine themselves to attending to the wounded in battle cannot be absolved from the guilt of war."

and

" War with all its glorification of brute force is essentially a degrading thing. It demoralizes those who are trained for it. It brutalizes men of naturally gentle character. It outrages every beautiful cannon of morality. Its path of glory is foul with the passions of lust, and red with the blood of murder. This is not the pathway to our goal. The grandest aid to development of strong, pure, beautiful character which is our aim, is the endurance of suffering. Self restraint, unselfishness, patience, gentleness, these are the flowers which spring beneath the feet of those who accept but refuse to impose suffering."

Mahtma Gandhi

people make the decision to go into the military and kill others.
I do not ever think that killing a human being is a good thing.
Our troops believe they are doing something good for our country, and they are not.
I want them back here alive now without any more murder on their hands!

[TomServo]

thank you laughing forest. just a few quotes

"I make no distinction between combatants and non-combatants. Those who confine themselves to attending to the wounded in battle cannot be absolved from the guilt of war."

and

" War with all its glorification of brute force is essentially a degrading thing. It demoralizes those who are trained for it. It brutalizes men of naturally gentle character. It outrages every beautiful cannon of morality. Its path of glory is foul with the passions of lust, and red with the blood of murder. This is not the pathway to our goal. The grandest aid to development of strong, pure, beautiful character which is our aim, is the endurance of suffering. Self restraint, unselfishness, patience, gentleness, these are the flowers which spring beneath the feet of those who accept but refuse to impose suffering."

Mahtma Gandhi

people make the decision to go into the military and kill others.
I do not ever think that killing a human being is a good thing.
Our troops believe they are doing something good for our country, and they are not.
I want them back here alive now without any more murder on their hands!

I agree, but murder and death are a fact of life. We need some sort of defense. Our meddling in the middle east got us into this mess. We've noone to blame but ourselves. I wish things were different, but we vote these assholes in office.

[ragabashpup]

We vote assholes into office because they either started that way or become that way. Politics suck!!!

[TomServo]

We vote assholes into office because they either started that way or become that way. Politics suck!!!

Yup! Don't see politics fading away anytime soon. Wish their was a simple solution.

[ragabashpup]

True their is no simple solution. There must always be some form of leadership and no matter who or what it is it will be corrupt. We are only human after all.

[TomServo]

Sucks doesn't it?

[ragabashpup]

Oh it's complete and utter bullshit. Then we also run into the issue of most people are so unintelligent that they only believe what the media tells them and don't research the facts so our officials are for the most part elected by the uneducated and the unintelligent. *TWITCH*

[TomServo]

Oh it's complete and utter bullshit. Then we also run into the issue of most people are so unintelligent that they only believe what the media tells them and don't research the facts so our officials are for the most part elected by the uneducated and the unintelligent. *TWITCH*

For the first time ever, I'm proud of a president, and the opposition completely shuts down. Wondering if the U.S. should split.

[Isotopia]

When fact becomes opinion, we're all screwed and visa versa.

And when your opinion ends up having any validity worthy of discussion I'll make a best effort to not visualize it as the thing I wipe my ass with when I take my morning dump.

[gyre]

Gnate, you should read more deeply into Gandhi's writing before quoting him on this subject.
He was the ultimate politician and very much a person of the context of his time and circumstance.
You may find much in his writing to disagree with.


I think you have not realized how ruthless many people are.
There are people at war with the rest of society here as well as in the rest of the world.
And not all of them are street criminals.

Much of the world longs for basic security.
No one has found a way to negotiate with those who place no value on their own life, much less yours.
Diplomacy with active danger always carries the threat of force of arms, as an option.

The diplomat is the messenger vulnerable and terrible.
Remember that he is only feared for what will come instead.

You should appreciate those that risk their safety for yours.
Their motives don't even matter.
When the military is misused, the responsibility almost always belongs to the people as a whole.

The more pacifistic you feel, the more you owe to those that make it possible to consider it.
Learn more about street justice and violence, in this country, and in the rest of the world, and your home will seem that much warmer.

Some things are worth dying for.
And killing for.


You can only be as nice as you are allowed to be.
I think that's a loose translation of what Gandhi said.