The Value of Art and Money and Paul Addis........

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
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Bob
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Postby Bob » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:30 am

TomServo wrote:The fact that whats his name tried to burn down Grace Cathedral after his little burning man stunt, clearly shows he's an attention whore. I prefer not to think about the little shit, rather the miracle that DPW pulled out of their ass, after the premature ejaculation.


But the OP says it was all about money.

Friend of mine built a large installation in 1999 -- by himself, but he's a big guy with his own truck. After his piece got prematurely torched he was an emotional mess, due to the obvious circumstance of having been fucked over by some anonymous asshole, as well as having lost a lot of objects of purely intrinsic value that were melted beyond recognition, that he meant to remove before his burn. I'd say the cost was incalculable.

In Dadara's view, did it matter? It was going to be burned anyway, so the end value would simply have been the cost of DPW making a clean-up project out of it. Actually, I think the artist cleaned up the site himself.

There might be room for discussion of money wrt to Burning Man, but using court evidence from one particular criminal case in 2007, while ignoring the broad subjective impact of the arson, might result in a pretty myopic focus. I'd love to see someone speak honestly about the cost of all the hand-holding and actual money that goes into coddling artists at Burning Man -- can't really do that myself, the event pretty much broke me in 2004 so I don't have the inside view that I once had. DPW people don't browse the eplaya much.
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Ansgard
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Postby Ansgard » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:49 am

why burn someones art?
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Postby TomServo » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:57 am

Respect is a fleeting trait at Burning Man. Money and Art mean nothing, when lives are at risk. Fuck that little shit! and whatever statement he was trying to make.


thanks for logging out annie
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..

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Postby C.f.M. » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:21 am

Ansgard wrote:why burn someones art?


BECAUSE I AM RADICALLY EXPRESSING MYSELF, MAN!!!!

Why not burn someone's art? Out of respect? What about respect for my feelings? Do as thou wilt, brother. Removing this sense of materialism and possession from you leaves you free to really be YOU, you are not your art! You're welcome!

"all the hand-holding and actual money that goes into coddling artists at Burning Man"

I can't speak for the larger efforts, from well-known "artistes," but I've been friends with some of the smaller efforts and there was certainly no coddling or hand-holding of any sort.

And disagree with the OP or not, at least s/he's not asking stupid questions about where to camp, or wanting a free ticket. :roll:

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Postby dadara » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:25 am

BAS wrote:Those "zero dollars" are cool looking, though.

IIRC, Andy Warhol was all about the line between art and commercialism, so he might be a good place to start.

http://blog.artasmoney.com/2011/01/05/cash-for-your-warhol-or-banksy/
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its the PROCESS!

Postby Simon of the Playa » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:18 am

UM, IN CASE YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN, the score was

SparklePonies(tm) 1, Art Fags 0.



and part of the treaty of Versace(tm) clearly states that WE WILL NOT TALK ABOUT THIS HIGH FALOOTIN' ESOTERIC ARTSY SHIT THAT NO ONE ACTUALLY GIVES A FLYING FUCK ABOUT.

ALSO, FIVE TIMES A DAY, EVERYONE WILL LISTEN TO THE NEW RIHANNA -KATY PERY- KE$HA MASHUP

And LIKE IT!


these terms were signed in good faith, and need to be honored or your little weimar roast is gonna get ugly.
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the checks in the mail.

Postby Roberto Dobbisano » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:32 am

Image
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:19 am

TomServo wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:
TomServo wrote:The fact that whats his name tried to burn down Grace Cathedral after his little burning man stunt, clearly shows he's an attention whore.

Not if he's seriously mentally ill. Well, I suppose he could still be an "attention whore" but that's very possibly a manifestation of illness rather than basic character. (Basic character gets hidden under layers of all sorts of "off-ness" in cases of serious mental illness.)
Teh problem of calling someone who is mentally ill an "attention whore" is that it minimizes the problem and makes someone who might respond well to treatment and basically become someone who can contribute to his "communities" and keeps him as an ass hanging around their necks. (Sorry, Da Mule.) And $30,000 could have bought a lot of medical treatment. Not to mention that court costs and prison costs and...


Mentally ill or not, he used his soapbox. Would you excuse Hitler for using his soapbox? my apologies! I hate it when people compare others to hitler,but....

I wasn't excusing him. I was trying to poke through the curtains of adulation he recieves in some quarters for making some sort of "statement." (My thought being that the "statement" isn't from any sort of clear thought, just a sort of broken action.) If I misread your post and hanged something you didn't say around your neck, I'm sorry.
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Postby Roberto Dobbisano » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:27 am

Image
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:27 am

Bob wrote:Friend of mine built a large installation in 1999 -- by himself, but he's a big guy with his own truck. After his piece got prematurely torched he was an emotional mess, due to the obvious circumstance of having been fucked over by some anonymous asshole, as well as having lost a lot of objects of purely intrinsic value that were melted beyond recognition, that he meant to remove before his burn. I'd say the cost was incalculable.

I agree. I have a piece that I made for the bar and when I couldn't go to the event a friend asked why I didn't just send it. (This is a much smaller piece, of course.) And the answer is that I want it back, and in reasonable shape. Not that I don't trust my campmates, but I don't trust anyone at the end of the event during clean up.

Bob wrote:I'd love to see someone speak honestly about the cost of all the hand-holding and actual money that goes into coddling artists at Burning Man -- can't really do that myself, the event pretty much broke me in 2004 so I don't have the inside view that I once had. DPW people don't browse the eplaya much.

There are at least three interesting things in this paragraph. The first being about how artists are treated by the LLC/The Artery in economic form. Of course, it's going to vary by project and artist, and I suspect that it's "necessary" in some greater context of Burning Man being an "art festival." But an interesting question, nonetheless. I'm, perhaps, more interested in what that "coddling" and "hand-holding" is, but then I've never had that sort of view of the festival, and I'm sure DPW workers have.
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Re: its the PROCESS!

Postby Eric » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:32 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:UM, IN CASE YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN, the score was

SparklePonies(tm) 1, Art Fags 0.


Apparently that's only because the Sparkle Ponies stole our flag and you were too busy looking at their boobs to notice.
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:32 am

did someone say boobs?
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Re: its the PROCESS!

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:33 am

Eric wrote:
Simon of the Playa wrote:UM, IN CASE YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN, the score was

SparklePonies(tm) 1, Art Fags 0.


Apparently that's only because the Sparkle Ponies stole our flag and you were too busy looking at their boobs to notice.

Well, that's danger of a match-up against the Sparkle Ponies. I can't even say that they don't "play fair" because I'm not sure that they thing that "fair" applies to anyone but themselves.
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:36 am

that "fair" applies to anyone but themselves.



yes, i'll admit there is a slight "bubble" thing going on, but thats another thread.
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Re: Kinder, Gentler, Unscented.

Postby TomServo » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:47 pm

Roberto Dobbisano wrote:Image


That looks like my step dad!
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..

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Postby lonestoner916 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:27 pm

TomServo wrote:The fact that whats his name tried to burn down Grace Cathedral after his little burning man stunt, clearly shows he's an attention whore. I prefer not to think about the little shit, rather the miracle that DPW pulled out of their ass, after the premature ejaculation.



I'm surprised at you TomServo. Addis was caught with fireworks on his person but there's no evidence to support the theory that he intended to burn down the cathedral. But yeah he's an attention whore...

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Postby lonestoner916 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:32 pm

[/quote]DPW people don't browse the eplaya much.


More than you might guess perhaps, and quite a few Gate folks as well.

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Re: its the PROCESS!

Postby lonestoner916 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:35 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:UM, IN CASE YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN, the score was

SparklePonies(tm) 1, Art Fags 0.



and part of the treaty of Versace(tm) clearly states that WE WILL NOT TALK ABOUT THIS HIGH FALOOTIN' ESOTERIC ARTSY SHIT THAT NO ONE ACTUALLY GIVES A FLYING FUCK ABOUT.

ALSO, FIVE TIMES A DAY, EVERYONE WILL LISTEN TO THE NEW RIHANNA -KATY PERY- KE$HA MASHUP

And LIKE IT!


these terms were signed in good faith, and need to be honored or your little weimar roast is gonna get ugly.



I WANT KE$HA TO DIE A SLOW AND AGONIZINGLY PAINFUL DEATH.

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Postby TomServo » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:38 pm

lonestoner916 wrote:
TomServo wrote:The fact that whats his name tried to burn down Grace Cathedral after his little burning man stunt, clearly shows he's an attention whore. I prefer not to think about the little shit, rather the miracle that DPW pulled out of their ass, after the premature ejaculation.



I'm surprised at you TomServo. Addis was caught with fireworks on his person but there's no evidence to support the theory that he intended to burn down the cathedral. But yeah he's an attention whore...


That's how he lit the man. Guess he didn't notice Grace Cathedral is made mostly of stone.
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..

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Postby The CO » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:55 pm

lonestoner916 wrote: Addis was caught with fireworks on his person but there's no evidence to support the theory that he intended to burn down the cathedral. But yeah he's an attention whore...


You mean other than the fact that the way they caught him was because he was overheard/told people he was going to burn down the cathedral, who in turn notified the police a suspected arsonist had made threats to burn down said cathedral, leading the police to go there and find said suspected arsonist with fire making materials??

Yeah, I guess if you discount that, then there is no evidence.
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Postby Bob » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:52 pm

{/quote}DPW people don't browse the eplaya much.

lonestoner916 wrote:More than you might guess perhaps, and quite a few Gate folks as well.


QED.
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Postby AntiM » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:34 am

I'm assuming the hand-holding and coddling is for the funded pieces? Although the Artery was very nice to me the year I did a placed (unfunded) piece. I showed up and was given a ride in a golf cart to my location marker. If that was coddling, yeah, I enjoyed it because it was novel for me. I had the option of using a day pass for a vehicle to haul the project to my spot. We hauled it out in the rhoadescar (two trips courtesy MyLarry's might thighs).

I've been encouraged at the regional level to put in for art grants for the Home for Wayward Art. I can't, because they want the cost of the total cost of the project. Yeah. Right. It doesn't work that way. It builds up, like barnacles or stalagmites. I use an incredible amount of obtamium, and the donations are priceless. I have tried to keep track of the receipts, but I am hopeless with the dribble-drabble way things trickle in, or get repurposed year after year.

What price the Home? Probably thousands-ish in real dollars by now. What price each piece? Dollar-wise, next to nothing. As mementos and experience? Sky-high. What price my love for it? It consumes my living space and my thoughts. It has given me interactions I would otherwise have missed, it brings people to reclusive me. Brining art from trash to treasure?

So I think I begin to understand dadara's project as the inverse to mine.
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:32 am

heres a favorite of mine that i found in rochester.


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Postby dadara » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:41 am

AntiM wrote:
What price the Home? Probably thousands-ish in real dollars by now. What price each piece? Dollar-wise, next to nothing. As mementos and experience? Sky-high. What price my love for it? It consumes my living space and my thoughts. It has given me interactions I would otherwise have missed, it brings people to reclusive me. Bringing art from trash to treasure?

So I think I begin to understand dadara's project as the inverse to mine.


I think any project that questions the value of art and money is similar in a way, how inverse it might even seem :)

This is another project that has always fascinated me; artist Michael Landy systematically destroyed all 7,227 of his worldly possessions, including his Saab 900 car, David Bowie singles, the shirt off his back and his passport.
And now has built a giant dust bin for works of art, that, according to their makers, were failures. Anybody could apply to get their works thrown into the bin alongside those of Damien Hirst and Tracey Emin.

From Treasure to Trash ?

http://blog.artasmoney.com/2011/01/07/destroy-and-create/

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Postby Isotopia » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:56 pm

Interesting how the Art World(TM) darlings and their fawning, boot-licking sycophant critics can commodify trash by sticking the 'High Art' seal of exclusionary approval into the pile. I think part of the reason that so many of them poo-poo Burning Man is that most people don't seem to give a shite about what people think of their art. Certainly that's been my experience.

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Postby fbcota » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:15 pm

Or it could be that they poo poo burning man because they see the art world as an exclusive club that should have a higher barrier to entry then simply asking to place your art on the playa.

Art snobs be damned. They are what they are, snobs. There are a million magnificient bottles of wine that a wine snob will never touch. Who gives a fuck what they think.

However, AntiM brings up an interesting concept. She hands out art that really holds almost no value, save the experience of the art. That in itself holds value, but its intangible and not really measurable by money. Seems like arts value is never served by assigning a dollar figure. Every "great" piece of art is deemed priceless. I guess that means it sits firmly between 0-??? dollars. Sure, it can be sold, but that price is never appropriate.

Is the man a cultural Icon or a bunch of sticks. Its both, it simultaneously holds no value and some obscene value.

I'm talking out my ass, speaking to the wind. Seems this is worth talking about, maybe in person, not on Eplaya :p

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Postby Isotopia » Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:34 pm

Or it could be that they poo poo burning man because they see the art world as an exclusive club that should have a higher barrier to entry then simply asking to place your art on the playa.

Art snobs be damned. They are what they are, snobs. There are a million magnificient bottles of wine that a wine snob will never touch. Who gives a fuck what they think.


Ya wanna go on a date? Why? Because honey, I'm in a total swoon over your post.

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Postby dadara » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:22 pm

fbcota wrote: Seems like arts value is never served by assigning a dollar figure. Every "great" piece of art is deemed priceless. I guess that means it sits firmly between 0-??? dollars.

I'm talking out my ass, speaking to the wind. Seems this is worth talking about, maybe in person, not on Eplaya :p


That's why the first bill I designed had value zero and the next one, after I finish making millions, will be a bill with value Infinity.
I would be happy to discuss in person, but living in Amsterdam, the Netherlands the Eplaya seems the next best thing :-)

something else:

Someone posted this on the Facebook page of the project; a fascinating story, not about art, but about money and how money is just fiction.........

I shared it in person over here, but will do it on Eplay with you all as well:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/423/the-invention-of-money

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Postby gyre » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:04 pm

Warhol is an interesting example.

The things he got publicity for, invariably lost money.
He made much from the publicity by doing portraits of the rich and famous.

More than half the value of his estate was in other people's artwork.

Is that who you thought he was?



More interesting is what creating for incentive does to artists.
Even small children are less creative when offered incentives.

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Postby Ansgard » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:46 pm

I love Art, but it saddens me, that people want to put a price on it. Are artists tired of not being paid for doing something?
Day of anger, day of mourning, when to ashes all is burning.


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