Sexual Violence

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
Post Reply
User avatar
diggum
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:15 am
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Post by diggum » Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:53 am

take some fucking personal responsibility for yourselves.

if it's a case of someone slipping drugs into your cup and taking advantage of your passed out ass, that's one thing. while i want to say keeping watch over your own cup is your own fucking responsibility, it only takes a second for some asstard to drop something in there. That's rape, plain and simple.

but i am completely shocked and awed by those who admit to making out with someone they didn't like, agreeing to let the guy rub his fucking dick on you, being surprised when said asshole tries sticking it in, and THEN trying to say you "totally resisted... and also refused to put on a condom." WHAT THE FUCK!?!?

Now in order to refuse putting a condom on, I am going to make the grand assumption that there had been discussion about it. The discussion should NOT have been "fine, but put on a condom." That is NOT "totally resisting." Totally resisting would be yelling "I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU" at the top of your fucking lungs, standing up and getting out of there, scratching at his eyes, gouging at his throat, kicking at his nuts, etc.

I do not want to try to make this out to be the victim's fault, but don't come here looking for sympathy because you didn't have the fucking balls to do what it took to stop it. Had you done so, and still been forced into this, then you were raped. From the sounds of it, you were just too damn lazy and too fucking mousy to argue, OR you are making up a story. If it's the former, then get yourself an HIV test, then write "I will not allow anyone to fuck me that I do not want to fuck in return" 1000 times. If it's the latter, then just go fuck yourself.

harsh and all, but fucking come on. dr phil ain't out there to hold your hand all the time - sometimes you need to do it for your goddamned self.

bschlong
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:41 am
Location: Santa Barbara, Calif.

Post by bschlong » Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:19 am

PetsUntilEaten wrote:wow - that was nice & frivolous.
she still gets to tell this guy he was a total asshole - cuz he was.
I need to quote myself here: schlong wrote
those who say they believe she was raped (date or otherwise)
pets wrote:
but....she's owning up to her responsiblity


Responsibility yeah, she needs to stay off the playa after 9PM or be accompanied by parent or guardian.
you're .... restating what she already says.... to make a point she's already made
Sorry, I don't see her making the point : " There was no reason for me to feel guilty, and even if I did, no reason to engage with him sexually"

I am responding to replies that say rebar his knuckles or string him up.... perhaps I've been with too many woman who said "maybe" ( body language saying otherwise) and after the act said "thanks, lets do it again"...but this is a thread about sexual vilolence, and I see the potential of violence done to this schmuck ( the guy!)

I direct my comments and ask the girl "what did you do/not do to facilitate or stop this. She needs the feedback more than the guy needs to be whacked.

I am not looking to start a flame war and am as sensitive as the next human being (just ask my goldfish)....but I will not blindsidedly bash this guy and placate this girl, just to be politically correct... we don't know the whole true story, thats why ask for details.....lets get real !


ya big tool
How'd ya know!?

User avatar
orlando
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:44 am
Location: NYC
Contact:

we dont have the details

Post by orlando » Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:58 am

and maybe it's not easy for her to be grilled here eh?

the 'feedback' you're giving is harsh and of the 'blame-the-victim flavor.

The feedbac'k she may need is not the kind that calls her names "mousy" and 'ballless' (talk about a blindspot!)

Have you guys taken the time out to look a long and critical time at the culture we are in from a young woman's perspective -- well you can't really.

We get raped by people we trust when were drunk ...hell- it is not strangers that most endanger us - but people we know - statistically.

Anyway -- if you are trying to help with your straight up advice(feedback) -- you need to check yourself.

Can we talk about the entitlement some men feel - whether it's for giving a ride, pounding rebar or dinner and a movie? Why is it that opportuntiy such as drunkenness is suddenly permission?

Why is all the aggro aimed at the woman?

Do you want Burningman to become an event where the girls show up - if at all - in Eddie Bauer wear? ( the horror !)

How can the good guys ( hot and not so hot) help change the culture at Burningman ( there was a time) so that we can all ENJOY RADICAL SELF EXPRESSION WITHOUT FEAR OF RAPE -- and at least reduce the number of un requitted un requested friendly gropes and assuming gestures.

The people that are allowed to touch me are people I know and like. For some reason MANY men see that extra expression of sex and affection and ASSUME it is generally availalbe as part of the gift economy!!!

This is not a problem we cant ammerleorate with some cultural education at and before the event.... THink LNT ....

User avatar
diggum
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:15 am
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Post by diggum » Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:31 am

orlando -

i know i came across as harsh, but P.C. lovey hushed tones isn't going to convince girls to not allow themselves to be victims. drugging someone and having sex with them is rape, flat out. The initial post that started this thread is very upsetting and strengthens my opinion that our girlfriends, sisters, wives, friends need to be as vigilant as they can be in protecting themselves from the dregs of our society that would do this. Whether it be a stranger at a bar, or a long-time friend, it's absolutely unacceptable, but unless Minority Report gets up and running, there's not much we can do to prevent it other than hammering in a wariness of surroundings and people to women. Ass kicking and strength is only a small portion of Self-Defense - the rest is knowing how to prevent getting into situations that would require the other part.

But in the case of sunset804, I don't buy it. I know a lot of people of various backgrounds, personalities, walks of life, etc. I can't think of a single one of them who would decide to sit around and make out with someone, be surprised when the assmunch asks to rub his dick on them, allow it, then be more surprised when he goes in for the kill. This is already a person who has spent a week making everyone around him feel guilty and that they owe him something - a person who she avoided for the entire week BECAUSE he was such a manipulative whining prick. Instead of telling this dickhead to leave her alone, she wants us to believe that, while she didn't want to, she agreed to "external rubbing"? A sentence later, she tells us she "totally resisted" and the guy "refused to put on a condom."

I don't buy it. It's either bullshit from the beginning, next-day regrets, or there's a whole bunch of the conversation she leaving out. I can't figure out at what point in any total resisting where the topic of whether he's willing to wear a condom or not would come up.

All that said, I sincerely hope that she is okay physically, is able to work things out emotionally, and if she still feels she was truly raped, that she contacts the authorities immediately and report this guy. It may never go to trial or charges, but if he tries this again on someone else, there will be a history to back up the case.

User avatar
diggum
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:15 am
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Post by diggum » Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:42 am

also, wanted to comment on:
How can the good guys ( hot and not so hot) help change the culture at Burningman ( there was a time) so that we can all ENJOY RADICAL SELF EXPRESSION WITHOUT FEAR OF RAPE -- and at least reduce the number of un requitted un requested friendly gropes and assuming gestures.

The people that are allowed to touch me are people I know and like. For some reason MANY men see that extra expression of sex and affection and ASSUME it is generally availalbe as part of the gift economy!!!
It's not JUST the responsibility of the "good guys." It's the responsibility of every person who cares, man or woman, and MORESO the responsibility of those who could be prey, to watch for themselves and not expect others to do it. Especially in such a radically different environment as burning man.

Allowing people you know and like to touch you is great. Allowing people you have never met to grope you is fine, too. But in doing either, you also assume the responsibility of stopping it when it's too far for your boundaries. For those cro-magnons who assume that sex, groping, ogling, etc is OKAY - they obviously have not been shown enough that it's NOT. Some members of our species do not learn as quickly as others. Loud yelling in their face can help. Publicly drawing attention if possible is great. Something physical works after other attempts have failed or if immediate reaction is needed. But point number one that really needs to be driven home is, IF YOU ARE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH WHAT IS GOING ON, GET SOMEWHERE SAFER. It could be the deck of an Art Bus with too many people - if it's alarming enough for you to think it's too full, it's probably too full and you would be safer on the ground. If you are feeling uncomfortable of some lone guy walking behind you, go somewhere where there are others around. If you don't like the guy who's rubbing his dick on you in some random dome, get out of the dome. If you can't be certain of being responsible for yourself when fucked up on your drugs, don't take the drugs.

I can't believe that these things wouldn't be common sense.

User avatar
orlando
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:44 am
Location: NYC
Contact:

blindspots

Post by orlando » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:03 pm

ok werestill talking about her
she's still on the witness stand
your still checking the legnth of her skirt
might as well be in Salem

As I said we get raped by people we TRUST.
Grandmas get raped by nursing home attendants, retarded women too!
THE PROBLEM IS NOT US.

People who send all the right signals. People who are kind and unassuming rape women. Our instincts are not always in our service.

You still lay the probelm at her feet.

Yes - young women need assertiveness training. And young men need some non abusive seduction training ( girls too)

No, she don't need to be raked over the coals by a clueless guy who will never be in that sititation and are not willing to step back and look at the wider issue - and BLAME THE RESPOSIBLE PARTY AND TAKE ACTIONS THAT WILL AFFECT *HIS* BEHAVIOR.

There isn't much politically correct about branding rapist on someone's ass. Can't the Bmorg put as much effort into leaving the women SCARFREE as they do in keeping the playa pristine? (OK there is a lot you can do between branding someones ass and additions to the survival guide.)

When was the last time you talked to 'the guys' about what to do when your getting 'mixed signals' from a woman? Besides makes jokes about it. When was the answer ever just "back off and maybe have a conversation or something."

Same ol boys will be boys bullshit.

Like I said - do you want us to carry tasers and dress in Eddie Bauer and birkenstocks?

Why is all your agro and animosity directed at her?

And fuckoff for dismissing things you don't agree with with the PC label - that's just anti-intellectual lazyness on your part.

Instead of berating her - find something actually helpful to do. Like how about forming a men's camp to discuss what to do with all these hot confusing - perhaps confused -Dionysian acolytes running around enjoying physical freedom for perhaps the first time in thier lives.....

If you want the juicy joy to continue - you need to help build a safe place for it --not continue to defend the old dominator culture through OLD PARADIGMS.

User avatar
clandyone
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:13 pm
Location: Oakland, CA

Post by clandyone » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:12 pm

It SUCKS that a woman could be made to feel that she "owes" a guy sex.

It SUCKS that she felt trapped and helpless and guilty.

It SUCKS that, for whatever reason, she did not feel justified in using the necessary force to put an end to the assault.

It SUCKS that the guy in question was such a yellow-bellied dirty rat bastard. I'd kick his ass myself, if I could.

However... and I'm sure to catch a lot of flak for this ... if she didn't say no, it wasn't rape. It was a shitty, sleazy situation, but if she was merely going along with something she didn't like, motivated by guilt and drunkenness, it wasn't rape.

Far be it from me to drag us back to the days when rape victims had to prove they resisted to an arbitrarily determined degree, but if you find yourself in a situation like the one Sunset described, you have the option of stopping the attack.

Step 1. Yell "Cut it out!"
Step 2. Grab balls.
Step 3. Squeeze like hell.
Step 4. Scream your head off.
Step 5. Run to nearest LEO or facsimile thereof and have the asshole hauled in.

If you find yourself in a situation like Sunset's, you owe it to yourself to resist unequivocally, and get help. Otherwise, there's just this huge gray area which obscures both your own credibility and the guilt of the attacker.

bschlong
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:41 am
Location: Santa Barbara, Calif.

Re: we dont have the details

Post by bschlong » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:25 pm

orlando wrote:and maybe it's not easy for her to be grilled here eh?

I'll grant that.
the 'feedback' ....is harsh 'blame-the-victim flavor.
I still an uncertain if there WAS a victim ...thats why I ask
how and when did she....Sunset804.... protest ?

The feedbac'k she may need is not the kind that calls her names "mousy" and 'ballless'
I agree...it's "I empathize(sp?) that you (sunset) feel badly ... in the future to not feel badly, consider saying no and walking away...ITS OK TO SAY NO!
Have you guys taken the time out to look a long and critical time at the culture we are in from a young woman's perspective -- well you can't really.
yeah, right we can't....us guys have never been coerced, manipulated,
guilt tripped, enticed and thus have never chosen to appease or give of ourselves; our labor, our bodies, our minds, when our better judgement said "say no".
We get raped by people we trust when were drunk ... not strangers but people we know
I agree...rape is NEVER excusable and rapist SHOULD be wacked...
you need to check yourself.
Not.
Can we talk about the entitlement some men feel - whether it's for giving a ride, pounding rebar or dinner and a movie? Why is it that opportuntiy such as drunkenness is suddenly permission?
Well said, outside of thie context of her (Sunset804) story I strongly agree, but I didn't see her say "I was drunk or druged" ...she says "tired and guilt ridden."

footnote: personaly I've never goten laid cause I felt and asserted a sence of entitlement...it was always a voluntary, mutually desired engagement and responce to my sensitivity, charm, humor, arrogance, and 12" schlong.
Why is all the aggro aimed at the woman?
Given her story why at men?
Do you want Burningman to become an event where the girls show up in Eddie Bauer wear? ( the horror !)
Or the guys in frilly pink dress's saying yes ma'm (sorry girly guys).
The people that are allowed to touch me are people I know and like.
I wanna reach out and touch you already. pretty please ?

......generally some points well taken.....

"When I die I don't want no part of heaven
I would not do heavens work well

I pray the devil comes and takes me
To stand in the fiery furnaces of hell"

From "Ghost of Tom Joad"
Bruce Springsteen 1995
Last edited by bschlong on Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
stuart
Posts: 3325
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:45 am
Location: East of Lincoln

Post by stuart » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:25 pm

overheard
'hey, what's yer name'
' oh it's *****'
'hey, you look real good'
'oh, thanks'
'hey, me and my friends have a dome'
'oh, cool'
'you wanna go?'
'oh, thanks, um, no, my friends are waiting for me'

these two are having their ambivalent conersation on the inside of a large dome, right in front of the entrance. The crowd on either side is backing up.

'hey, did you have a good burn'
'um, yeah. My friends are outside'
'cool, do they wanna come too?'

I tap the girl on the shoulder and ask her to please exit or move. No response.

'hey, I like your outfit'
'um, thanks'

I tap the guy on the shoulder and repeat my plea for them to move

'fuck off dude! she is, like, not in to you'

me screaming 'She is not in to you either jack ass. I don't give a fuck though. I don't want to fuck either of you. Just fucking take this bullshit 3 feet to the left so the rest of us can come and go as we please'

applause

upon exiting, I see her three friends. They are bitching about how they can't get anywhere with her along cuz she won't say yes but she won't say no.

I'm not sure there is a point to this story.

User avatar
orlando
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:44 am
Location: NYC
Contact:

ok

Post by orlando » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:26 pm

I pretty much agree...
NOW

What about him and all the other guys that either don't get it -- or willfully push without concern for the human being they are trying to fuck?


What about empowering the guys to help change the dynamics at BM -- which ARE getting sleazier.

C'mon folks think deeper.

User avatar
orlando
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:44 am
Location: NYC
Contact:

her stroy

Post by orlando » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:38 pm

you caught me -- im not totally focused on teh details of sunsets story -- more the dynamics at the event which are getting more and more fucked up.....

What I meant by the Eddie bauer comment is -- It will devolve into just another place where women don't feel safe and don't want to go...

Those NOTABLY AMBIGUOUS moments - well assholes will not even deal with the ambiguity because they feel entitled.... ( not talking about you)

So how do we as a culture SHIFT the dynamic -- so that women still feel as free to be openly sexual in a comfortable space. Men areperfectly capable of respoding ampathetically they do all the time - My aggro is not at all men -- it's kind of at all of us for accepting this shift towards sleazyness with a ho hum.


If you want the women to continue to feel radically free open beatuful in all thier infinate variety ( one of the things I assume you like I love most about the place) -- the question becomes -- what can we do as a culture - as an INTENTIONAL COMMUNITY to discourage, educate and affect a SEX POSTIVE SPACE for Women AND MEN.

I get really sad when I hear a supposedly radical community talking the same ol shit you'll hear on Limbaugh any day of the week. C'mon folks were supposed to be cultural pioneers.

By the way -- can anyone get me a copy of the How to Get LAid at BM brochure...it's great.

bschlong
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:41 am
Location: Santa Barbara, Calif.

Huh ??????

Post by bschlong » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:43 pm

stuart scanlon wrote:overheard
'hey, what's yer name'
' oh it's *****'
'hey, you look real good'
'oh, thanks'
'hey, me and my friends have a dome'
'oh, cool'.......etc. etc. etc.
'
I'm not sure there is a point to this story.
Huh? What? Could you elaborate...who said what under what circumstance, and intent.....I'm pretty sure that there is no point to this story .[/b]

User avatar
stuart
Posts: 3325
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:45 am
Location: East of Lincoln

Post by stuart » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:49 pm

How can I change this dynamic? I am married and monogamous. I can't go about lecturing my single brethren trying to erase a couple of decades of conditioning. They won't take me seriously. They won't want me 'infringing on their BM experience' Two elements are present that will make it quite difficult; You have young men (and women) wanting to hook up, and hot naked people abound. It's gonna get sleazy by many peoples definition. Do you want to desexualize the event? I am not supporting either party in this recent (not original) discussion. I am sure he is getting intermittant positive re-enforcement for his icky behavior. That is dangerous. Us nice guys, the ones you are imploring for help, are on the sidelines of this one witnessing yet another occasion when some bad guys behavior is rewarded by some girls ambivalence. We all feel sold out. It sucks for everyone but the bad guy.
Yuck!

User avatar
diggum
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:15 am
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Post by diggum » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:52 pm

I do NOT blame the incident on her. She did not put his dick inside of her against her own will. There is a big difference, though, between an old woman or a handicapped girl or a drugged girl being raped, and the situation as she described.

Clandyone said it very well - it SUCKS all holy hell that girls can be put into a position where they feel obligated to submit, or that they don't feel they should resist. it SUCKS that there are people who come to our event on the prowl for someone they can take advantage of.

We can't prevent sleazy fucks from getting into the event, short of doing background and personality checks on every ticket buyer. We CAN reinforce to girls and women that it's their right and their obligation to NOT allow these fuckers to take advantage of them.

You're right. Us "guys" don't sit around talking about the alternatives we all have to raping a girl, though maybe it's because I don't count a lot of known rapists among my friends. And while a camp instructing guys on proper etiquette is a good idea and would probably be the least attended theme camp at burning man, I've also never seen a camp devoted to teaching awareness and self-defense to women. So please spare me the "boys will be boys" bullshit and advice on what I should be doing at the event - it's not an event-specific problem. In fact, I have helped run self-defense classes for women in my area helping girls from 8 to 80 learn how to protect themselves proactively, as well as in the shit. So you're right, I'm a huge prick. Rather than try to find a way to prevent rapists (and don't tell me it's an etiquette thing - a person who would rape another is not someone who is just making an error in judgement) from raping, all I've done is try to help the people at risk become less of a target and help others who aren't as aware.

The agro and animosity I have over this issue is not directed at her. It's directed at the idea that girls cannot be responsible for themselves and need us big strong men as protectors and bringers of change. Fuck that - be the change you wish to see in the world. Women are strong motherfuckers, but it's attitudes like that that prevent many of them from reaching their full potential.

I also have agro and animosity over the portion of her story where she "totally resisted" and "he refused to wear a condom." The discussion of him wearing a condom should NEVER have come up. The only discussion that should have been going on is "I do not want to have sex with you, I refuse to allow you to do this. Get the fuck off of me." Girls need to learn that "totally resisting" is getting up, pushing, yelling, fighting back, punching, scratching. Not attempting to make concessions and deals. Not being alone with someone you don't trust. Not being afraid of looking like a fool if it will protect you. These concepts won't protect everyone 100% of the time, but they're enough to raise the odds considerably.

User avatar
stuart
Posts: 3325
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:45 am
Location: East of Lincoln

Post by stuart » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:54 pm

while there was no point to the story schlong, the intent and circumstances were quite clear. There was a guy hitting on a girl. The girl was not recpetive but she dug the attention. In the meantime, their vapid, self centered reparte was blocking about 3 dozen people from excersising their right to enter or exit a camp.

if there was a point it was tangential at best. Simply, that for many, BM is god's own meat market and damn the rest of you for getting in the way of that radical free expression.

User avatar
clandyone
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:13 pm
Location: Oakland, CA

Re: her stroy

Post by clandyone » Tue Sep 09, 2003 1:09 pm

orlando wrote: So how do we as a culture SHIFT the dynamic -- so that women still feel as free to be openly sexual in a comfortable space. Men areperfectly capable of respoding ampathetically they do all the time - My aggro is not at all men -- it's kind of at all of us for accepting this shift towards sleazyness with a ho hum.
Personally, I haven't noticed any "shift towards sleaziness", but it could be because I don't seek out sexually charged situations at Burning Man.

I do think that with a growing population, we'll inevitably see more people who don't know what the fuck they're doing -- be they folks who dump automotive effluvia on the playa, or don't pack out their trash, or leave sneakers in the potties, or don't realize that they are responsible for their own experience and personal safety, or who think that the relatively sexually free environment entitles them to take advantage of others.

It's our responsiblity as a community to look out for one another, and to intervene if something seems fishy. It is our responsibility as individuals to know what we must do to ensure our own safety.

I do not think rapists can be stopped by anything but physical force or intervention by authorities. Anybody who's sociopathic enough to think that they deserve to force someone to have sex against their will is beyond help. Fuck 'em. Lock 'em up. People (usually, but not always, women) who may be vulnerable to the "attentions" of these monsters MUST BE AWARE of what they can do, not only to reduce their own vulnerablility, but to prevent the rapist from hurting anyone else. Resistance is not only self-defense, but a public service. Knuckling under or making deals only encourages the asshole.

Informed consent is, if anything, even more important at Burning Man than it is in the real world -- because the atmosphere is so sexually liberal, it can get a little confused. Apart from emphasizing that fact, and keeping our eyes peeled for trouble, I don't think there's much we can do.

meander
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:31 am

Post by meander » Tue Sep 09, 2003 1:12 pm

but "personal responsibility" gets in the way of a good time.

C'mon, WOMEN get caught up in the moment just the same as men, though men don't usually say "no, stop" after getting into it. If you are drugged (esp on E!) and dancing half-naked you are putting yourself in a VERY precarious position, even at a radical, counter-culture event where all the participants are supposed to "know better". BTW I'm a 37-year old female who has witnessed plenty of irresponsible behavior on the part of BOTH sexes: some women seem to want it both ways and some men will never "get it". The best defense is to AVOID dangerous situations, esp. when you are physically weaker than your potential "attackers".
Just Say Know!

User avatar
orlando
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:44 am
Location: NYC
Contact:

stuart!

Post by orlando » Tue Sep 09, 2003 1:18 pm

I never said you were a prick! And I appreciate the work you've done! Sounds great !

I hear your frustration and we agree women can and should be more empowered to establish their own boundaries by talking or force when nessesary. So we agree...

OK your right about the camp idea -- allthough the EArth Gaurdians have done a LOT to raise awareness and the bar around taking care of our own shit...they've had great success!

I'm asking that we brainstorm not ACCEPT this shit as a given. That is NOT DENYING that empowering women to physically and aggressively defend themselves and learn to be unambiguous about WHAT THEY WANT AND DONT WANT.


OK Stuart let's stop barking at each other -- we're not in total opposition at all...

Are there other things we can door encourage the bmorg to do to preserve and expand SEX POSITIVE SPACE FORWOMEN AND MEN? None of us want that to DIE and it will unless WE do something...

Let's brainstorm and NOT SHOOT DOWN IDEAS JUST GETTING OUT THE GATE....

User avatar
drowned_saved
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 1:15 pm
Location: SoCal

Post by drowned_saved » Tue Sep 09, 2003 1:22 pm

stuart scanlon wrote:their vapid, self centered reparte was blocking about 3 dozen people from excersising their right to enter or exit a camp.
their RIGHT? LMAO. this would almost be cute if it weren't so misguided.

User avatar
diggum
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:15 am
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Post by diggum » Tue Sep 09, 2003 1:41 pm

it may be a very good idea to write up a "girl's guide to burning man" and a "boy's guide to burning man" that can be handed out by theme camps, mailing lists, survival guides, etc. something that just explains to folks who haven't been before what to expect, some suggestions on how to approach or deal with certain people, etc. the sad part is the people who need to read it are usually the ones who can't be bothered to do so.

User avatar
orlando
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:44 am
Location: NYC
Contact:

yeah

Post by orlando » Tue Sep 09, 2003 1:47 pm

but it moves in the right direction-- and the ones we have hope of helping out are the ones that have trouble with 'ambiguities' "boundaries' 'negotiations'

an empowered sex positive play space -- where ambiguities are safely and mutually joyflly expolored is the aim.....


I am not really talking about the predatory rapists --- that's who the branding is for! And kick ass self defense classes are reccomended for all women in general on or off the playa....

User avatar
TestesInSac
Posts: 451
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:04 pm

Post by TestesInSac » Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:01 pm

Give a woman a gun and teach her to shoot well, and she's the equal of any 275lb rapist anywhere. BTW, I've taught 3 girlfriends basic firearms skills, and they all loved it.

'Course, they're banned from Burning Man.

User avatar
orlando
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:44 am
Location: NYC
Contact:

and

Post by orlando » Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:13 pm

for many a sex postitve space is not what they come to the playa for.... spaces for all kinds of experiences...

yeah - shame about the firearms...well not really-- too many people freakin on one substance or another to make me comforatable with supporting responsib;le gun owner ship on the playa.... tasers, mace--- oh it's all so sad.

Viking
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:56 pm

Yahoo Education Project

Post by Viking » Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:17 pm

it may be a very good idea to write up a "girl's guide to burning man" and a "boy's guide to burning man" that can be handed out by theme camps, mailing lists, survival guides, etc. something that just explains to folks who haven't been before what to expect, some suggestions on how to approach or deal with certain people, etc. the sad part is the people who need to read it are usually the ones who can't be bothered to do so.

I've been helping create this 'required reading for Yahoos' for the past two years in a format they will enjoy and read. It's a magazine called "how to get laid at burning man" (cleverly disguised to make the yahoo an eager reader) but which teaches citizenship, personal responsibility, safe sex, but above all RESPECT and basic human kindness.

If you want to help publish this (a handful of us spend our hard earned cash to print up as many copies as we can afford and hand them out at the event) join the Yahoo Education Project mailing list at
[email protected]

User avatar
stuart
Posts: 3325
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:45 am
Location: East of Lincoln

WTF?

Post by stuart » Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:21 pm

their RIGHT? LMAO. this would almost be cute if it weren't so misguided.
am I to take it you feel I don't have the right to leave a place when I choose?

User avatar
orlando
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:44 am
Location: NYC
Contact:

viking"?

Post by orlando » Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:24 pm

is it available online?

User avatar
PetsUntilEaten
Posts: 294
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 5:49 pm
Location: los angeles

Post by PetsUntilEaten » Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:39 pm

against my better judgement to continue . . . .

wow. its my feeling that sunset probably saw this thread & thought it might be a sympathetic place to share her experience. I don’t think she asked for advice, was stating a case, or was inciting an argument.

Schlong-y – what’s with the full frontal attack? I know date rape & its grey areas is a personal issue for everyone, but she doesn’t owe you details, an argument, or have to defend her behavior. Sunset merely shared her experience. When you start breaking down people’s posts blow by blow (instead of just one or two quotes – it’s the entire page?) you really enter into a tit for tat pseudo-intellictual argument that frankly I’m not too interested in. I’m interested in the discussion – but this full breakdown stuff is a little too pedantic. In fact, I don’t know who exactly you are having this debate with or for. Me & the girls offer up that the guy’s behavior looks like it verges on date rape – but no one claims to have all the details – and frankly – this is Sunset’s problem – its up to her to decide. You’re not the judge & jury, pal – or even the guy’s bad lawyer. And I don’t think that I tried to decide anything for her.

She seems self aware enough to get what happened.

Now the girls around here offered a similar, if not more empowering, opinions that she can & should handle herself differently in the future & can take steps to help her situation now.

diggum – I actually agree with 90% of what you say & I don’t think you’re the troll schlong leans towards. But I don’t think its at all helpful the way you phrase most of your “advice”. In fact it’s a bit overpowering itself.

“P.C. lovey hushed tones isn't going to convince girls to not allow themselves to be victims. . . . . there's not much we can do to prevent it other than hammering in a wariness of surroundings and people to women.”

I didn’t need “hammering” to understand anything. Lovely tones did work with me however. I understand because my mother talked to me like I was a smart, strong little girl who could take care of herself. Besides self-defense I was also taught that I may not win a full attack by a man – but that I should just take as big a piece of him with me as I could. (I believe you agree with me on most of this) I think that confidence is great – but so is knowing that no matter how good, strong & smart you are won’t always save you. Niether will “your man”. and neither will getting “hammered” by your advice. We all have moments of emotional & physical weakness – those that take advantage of that in anyway (even if they take your sandwich without asking) should at least be spoken to. I know, I read your points – but really, you aren't very encouraging & in your frustration, you are being insulting. I think that you make good points – but your phrasing assumes a sort of stupidity and weakness on the part of Sunset & those of us that don’t exactly agree with you. (that goes for schlong-y too).

Just try to ease up on the reigns.

Cheers –

Pets.

Halo Joe
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:27 pm
Location: The Great American South

Post by Halo Joe » Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:42 pm

tempest wrote:I'm not asking for sexual violence when I walk around by myself, I'd like to see them try anything.
Me too! It'd probably seem like a fight scene out of "Rush Hour 3." (Or maybe the chipper-shredder incident in "Fargo" ...)

But still, a bit of a mind toward safety never hurt. I keep a sort of silent mental alarm going about 90 percent of the time, just ... well, just because that's how I am, damn it.
You were burning long before you stepped into this fire. -- EB

Viking
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:56 pm

Online Yahoo Education Project

Post by Viking » Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:56 pm

2003 version isn't up yet, but here are the 2000 and 2002 editions:

http://www.yahoopamphlet.com/

incomplete 2003 here (temporarily):
http://www.technomystic.org/~mosbaugh/yahoo2003/

Sunset804
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 4:26 pm

Post by Sunset804 » Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:13 pm

My post was a complete change in subject from the rape case previously mentioned (the woman who was drugged and raped while passed out).

My post (which I have now deleted) was too sharp of a change in subject. I was talking about men who manipulate and push and push and push and then are proud of their "conquest" (getting their way). He felt he had "seduced" me. I felt very coerced/manipulated. The issue was true seduction is not manipulating a person into submission but it brings forth genuine desire. He was aware of all the times I said "no" but to him it was a game to get his way. He was so obsessed with his own needs and wants he fooled himself into believing he was "seducing". His behavior created within me a strong hate for him instead of "loving feelings". He gained the fuck but lost the relationship.

(I appologize for being extremely unclear in the first post)
Last edited by Sunset804 on Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply

Return to “Philosophical Center”