other evidence that BM causes damage to the lake bed.

[allanon2]

I copied these things from other peoples posts about Playa dunes and BM. see its not just me makign this claim
read belwo and see for yourself about what BM is doing to the lake bed.
some of these peopel live around the black ock region
ttyl
rex
dont flame me about what is said. The below is other peoples words here. just helps me prove my point that BM is hurtign the lake bed.



The sepentine dunes were always a feature of the playa created naturally at first, but though they were much less before motorized travel. BM has disturbed the playa allowing more soils to become wind blowned, but structual breaks have allowed the loose soils to create more dune formation. The DPW vigorously rakes out these dunes to make them more susceptual to the winds, but what eventually will take place is the lowering of the surface in the BM area creating what the well traveled routes have caused is an artificial ponding of the seasonal flooding. This is why the BM event has got to move to another location on the playa. Rotational sites will allow the deposition of materials to refill this wind and human caused erosion.

Someday all motorized and large scale activites will come to a stop in certains areas of the playa, but now all and this time can be delayed for many years to come if only we learn to adapt to the dynamics involved in creating and forming the Black Rock Desert.

A II Z

PS- please drive responsibly so I can continue to drive my 4x4. I use it as a tool to get closer to an area before I need to hike!
_________________
Participate, Not Dissipate!

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Taniwha



Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 80
Location: Oakland CA
Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2004 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: I've been to the black rock long before I ever attended.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I too have been going to the playa for years (before BM ever went there in fact). The playa has changed over the years - the 'serpents' (those annoying dunes that will rip the bottom out of your truck if you hit them at 90mph) have got much worse down wind of the current BM site - it's got worse every year, I'm glad DPW are tring to nuke them. Please keep it up.

Long ago there used to be a group of them down the east side that were, IMHO, caused by the road that goes through the current BM location. When BM moved there a bunch appeared from the west side and they've kind of grown together since.

I believe they are definitely caused by the dust raised by all the extra people there. Moving BM around would probably be a good thing - getting everyone driving on the playa to get there would probably be bad.

But remember the playa is an ever changing environment - when I first went there there (80s) there was a drought on, it was very dry, we used to start to go in April, now we start in June, afterwards an almost permanent (year round) lake/mud puddle formed down the west side (north of the BM site) for a couple of years - it's gone now. You can't 'save' the playa from change - it changes all the time by itself - that's a part of what makes it such a wonderfull place - what we can do is take care that our impact is minimal and watch to make sure it's looked after - if we start to cause a depression where we're currently sited we should move (trust me being in a low patch during a good downpour is a disaster - imagine all those cars leaving at once and getting struck, digging ruts, getting towed - what a mess) - in the mean time keeping an eye on our environment and being open minded about our effect on the playa and just be prepared to find another site if necessary - there are lots of dry lake beds in NV.

There are some great things about all the extra people who go there - the playa is so much cleaner - for years I would bring a couple of garbage bags of other people's moop back with me, some of it 30+ years old, I've helped clean up really old cars, flatten mud houses people had made etc etc now days it's hard to find anything to pick up as we drive around. We certainly run into moop that's escaped the burn, but it's really pretty minor - I found way more left by one bozo with a flare gun last year than from BM

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Black Rock Ric



Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 143
Location: Black Rock
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:47 am Post subject: The Great Divot

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Couple of notes on The Great Divot

#1. The dust coming up from the BM site during windstorms is from the underlaying strata of the playa. It is darker and heavier than the what gets blown up from the rest of the playa. That does support the contention that the BM site is creating a depression. Raking it, as happens post BM, doesn't help the problem. Perhaps watering and rolling, but if you watered you could not roll. Which brings me t
#2. Quote:
digging ruts, getting towed - what a mess
In case of a substantial rain, tow rigs could not enter the playa, The vehicles there would remain until the playa dried. Vehicles could be removed by helicopter, as has happened. It is conceivable that in the event of onset of an early and heavy winter, thousands of vehicles could remain until June.. That would be entertaining.

[Steven bradford]

You mean nature's not static?!

Funny, that.

[DVD Burner]

allanon,


Are you gonna be at Burningman this year?

[allanon2]

allanon,


Are you gonna be at Burningman this year?

we camp near BM about 7-10 miles away

These messages that i reposted were from a couple of months ago and i thoughtsome would liek to now what was said by others as others are saying i am full of it. but then others are two/when does that no be the case?

[SilkenTofu]

allanon,


Are you gonna be at Burningman this year?

we camp near BM about 7-10 miles away

These messages that i reposted were from a couple of months ago and i thoughtsome would liek to now what was said by others as others are saying i am full of it. but then others are two/when does that no be the case?

I know that going to Burningman for you would be not be right, but I couldn't be that close and not go. That's like going to Paris, staying in the hotel across the street from the Louvre and not going in.

[allanon2]

we can explore the country side.
have a fire.
drive our vehicles to gerlach for a nice dinner.
explore the old ghosttowns. Visit the abandend mines.
etc...
if you go to BM you can't leave we cant stand that confinment
ttyl
rex

allanon,


Are you gonna be at Burningman this year?

we camp near BM about 7-10 miles away

These messages that i reposted were from a couple of months ago and i thoughtsome would liek to now what was said by others as others are saying i am full of it. but then others are two/when does that no be the case?

I know that going to Burningman for you would be not be right, but I couldn't be that close and not go. That's like going to Paris, staying in the hotel across the street from the Louvre and not going in.

[TheJudge]

Thanks for the info. I will make sure that the perimeter scouts make sure you always remain at a safe distance from the city, lest they think you are tresspassing and treat you accordingly.

[TheJudge]

"I have reviewed Environmental Assessment (EA) NV-020-03-06, dated May of 2003 and the Determination of NEPA Adequacy NV-020-04-DNA-14, dated May of 2004. After consideration of the environmental effects as described in the EA, I have determined that the proposed action, conducted in accordance with the mitigation measures and special stipulations, will not significantly affect the quality of the human environment and that an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) is not required to be prepared"

Signed: David Cooper, NCA Manager.

[Badger]

"I have reviewed Environmental Assessment (EA) NV-020-03-06, dated May of 2003 and the Determination of NEPA Adequacy NV-020-04-DNA-14, dated May of 2004. After consideration of the environmental effects as described in the EA, I have determined that the proposed action, conducted in accordance with the mitigation measures and special stipulations, will not significantly affect the quality of the human environment and that an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) is not required to be prepared"

Signed: David Cooper, NCA Manager.

Whoah, whoah, WHOAH!

Judge, don't be tossing around fact(s) as determined by by the damn NCA manager. What the hell are you doing here? I mean, jeez, just because the guy has more data and information available to him than Rex has spelling errors doesn't mean you should just jump in here and try to make a point that Rex may be ANYTHING but correct in this little dialogue.

Go to your room.

[JezebelinHell]

but then others are two/when does that no be the case?

Umm...what?

[rodent]

I copied these things from other peoples posts about Playa dunes and BM. see its not just me makign this claim
read belwo and see for yourself about what BM is doing to the lake bed.
some of these peopel live around the black ock region
ttyl
rex
dont flame me about what is said. The below is other peoples words here. just helps me prove my point that BM is hurtign the lake bed.

First of all...
"makign" "belwo" "peopel" "black ock" "hurtign"

PROOFREAD YOUR POSTS!!!

Second of all, you are posting old information into a brand new thread that has already been presented and discussed, NONE of which is actual data and is all unsubstantiated opinion posted by someone who "I will now work through all legal means to disrupt and end Burning Man in the Black Rock"

---
rodent (putting the eek in geek)

[obonin]

Second of all, you are posting old information into a brand new thread that has already been presented and discussed, NONE of which is actual data and is all unsubstantiated opinion posted by someone who "I will now work through all legal means to disrupt and end Burning Man in the Black Rock"

Do you have data. Can you talk about facts. We all want to see data. You know real data.

[Captain Goddammit]

Hey Wrecks...
Here's another hairball for you to swallow; your whole point is moot. What if Burning Man DOES create some "playa serpents"? So what, I wouldn't really care. It's a freakin' lake bed. It's a dead pile of dirt, being used for about the best thing it could be. Nature is going to change it no matter what you do, and you should feel lucky that an organization as responsible as BM is using it (and cleaning up after themselves) and not more people like you who want to race on it and tear it up worse.
And hey, look just to the left of the "Submit" button... there's another one labelled "Preview"; use it. It lets you see how much you screwed up and fix it before you look like a moron. You need all the help with that you can get.

[allanon2]

Thanks for the info. I will make sure that the perimeter scouts make sure you always remain at a safe distance from the city, lest they think you are tresspassing and treat you accordingly.

we will abide by that
and remeber you guys can't come out and talk to use if we are 150 feet away from the fence
no bm rangers outside the fence
only blm and sherifs

[allanon2]

many items in the permit have never been addressed.
there is the whole issue of BLM and the permit fees being a conflist of interest.
etc..
as the money went to blm the requirements have been getting easier for BMORG

so dave saying that is kinda expected.

"I have reviewed Environmental Assessment (EA) NV-020-03-06, dated May of 2003 and the Determination of NEPA Adequacy NV-020-04-DNA-14, dated May of 2004. After consideration of the environmental effects as described in the EA, I have determined that the proposed action, conducted in accordance with the mitigation measures and special stipulations, will not significantly affect the quality of the human environment and that an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) is not required to be prepared"

Signed: David Cooper, NCA Manager.

Whoah, whoah, WHOAH!

Judge, don't be tossing around fact(s) as determined by by the damn NCA manager. What the hell are you doing here? I mean, jeez, just because the guy has more data and information available to him than Rex has spelling errors doesn't mean you should just jump in here and try to make a point that Rex may be ANYTHING but correct in this little dialogue.

Go to your room.

[allanon2]

rodent these are others peoples words not mine
2 are BMORG participants and anouter is a local that knows the lake bed betetr than almsot anyone
so i wont comment on what they said i wnated to bring back something that others said becuase back in april it went unanswerd.
and is hard to argue about
ttyl
rex


Second of all, you are posting old information into a brand new thread that has already been presented and discussed, NONE of which is actual data and is all unsubstantiated opinion posted by someone who "I will now work through all legal means to disrupt and end Burning Man in the Black Rock"

---
rodent (putting the eek in geek)[/quote]

[Sensei]

... before you look like a moron. You need all the help with that you can get.

I have always found it quite easy to act like a moron. Captain, you've seen it in action. Sorry. (Yeah, Sensei, way to piss off the guy giving out the margaritas).

Getting back to our favorite masochist: Rex, baby, loved the statement you made during the NPR story about how you couldn't drive 30 miles an hour without worrying about the car being flipped by the playa serpents. I spit my Coke clear across the room. Thanks for confirmin' there, buddy.

[allanon2]

what used to be able to be travelled at a highgher speed
some of the dunes are so bad i could seea evhicle gettign flipped at 30 miles per hour.
someoen hittign them and being thrown sides and then overocorrecting.
they crash in the middle of the playa and if they surivive that they might die from the heat.

captian that lake bed used to be pesitine and one fo the best land sailign places in the US.
also after thurst SSC it had a chance to be the premier land speed record place.
but alass it cant be anymore

Hey Wrecks...
Here's another hairball for you to swallow; your whole point is moot. What if Burning Man DOES create some "playa serpents"? So what, I wouldn't really care. It's a freakin' lake bed. It's a dead pile of dirt, being used for about the best thing it could be. Nature is going to change it no matter what you do, and you should feel lucky that an organization as responsible as BM is using it (and cleaning up after themselves) and not more people like you who want to race on it and tear it up worse.
And hey, look just to the left of the "Submit" button... there's another one labelled "Preview"; use it. It lets you see how much you screwed up and fix it before you look like a moron. You need all the help with that you can get.

[Tancorix]

Ok, so it's no longer the premiere land speed record space in your opinion. It never was. Bonneville clearly holds that distinction in the minds of the public. Easily accessible from I-80 and with sanctioned races every year, it's a simple matter of location, location, location. The Black Rock will never come close. Thrust SST gave the place more publicity than it's had in the past 100 years. But it's still a candle compared to the spotlight of Bonneville.

I just thought of something....what if the event was returned to one of the "hanging playas" where it was for one of the previous years and taken off the main playa? Would this address your concerns?

I know one thing. I am thankful that BM enlightened me that the playa even exists. It's truly a special, magikal place. For the past 5 years it has consumed my mind and changed my life many times over. And my story with the playa is not through yet. But that story...is for another day.

[rodent]

rodent these are others peoples words not mine
2 are BMORG participants and anouter is a local that knows the lake bed betetr than almsot anyone
so i wont comment on what they said i wnated to bring back something that others said becuase back in april it went unanswerd.
and is hard to argue about
ttyl
rex

"anouter" "betetr" "almsot" "wont" "becuase"

PROOFREAD!!!

---
rodent (putting the eek in geek)

[rodent]

rodent these are others peoples words not mine
2 are BMORG participants and anouter is a local that knows the lake bed betetr than almsot anyone
so i wont comment on what they said i wnated to bring back something that others said becuase back in april it went unanswerd.
and is hard to argue about
ttyl
rex

( sorry, forgot to address content)

Of the people you posted for, none of them are locals

A II Z - NOT A RESIDENT

Taniwha - NOT A RESIDENT

Black Rock Ric - NOT A RESIDENT

This is what people harp on you for, incomplete and inacurate information.

---
rodent (putting the eek in geek)

[rodent]

what used to be able to be travelled at a highgher speed
some of the dunes are so bad i could seea evhicle Cflipped at 30 miles per hour.
someoen hittign them and being thrown sides and then overocorrecting.
they crash in the middle of the playa and if they surivive that they might die from the heat.

captian that lake bed used to be pesitine and one fo the best land sailign places in the US.
also after thurst SSC it had a chance to be the premier land speed record place.
but alass it cant be anymore

Firstly,
"highgher" "seea" "evhicle" "evhicle" "Cflipped" "someoen" "hittign" "overocorrecting" "surivive" "captian" "pesitine" "sailign" "premier" "alass" "cant"

PROOFREAD YOUR POSTS!!!

Do you want to be taken seriously? Do you want people to address the issues that you present? Do you want people to stop flaming you? then PROFFREAD YOUR FUCKING POSTS!!

You don't take the extra time out to reread and correct your posts, you don't take time out to attend a BLM meeting about the issue (playa serpents) that you're currently harping on BMORG for. Get serious or shut the fuck up!

Secondly,
You say that the serpents that you've seen, when were you on the Black Rock last?

---
rodent (putting the eek in geek)

[Isotopia]

we will abide by that
and remeber you guys can't come out and talk to use if we are 150 feet away from the fence no bm rangers outside the fence
only blm and sherifs

Not surprisingly this is more incorrect info Wrecks. Re-read - or have someone read to you - the permit approval stipulations.

[allanon2]

it would solve 90% of the all the problems that people in general care about.

the land salers woudl be happy
the 4x4 group happy
the peopel that in geenral care about the lake bed happy
tc.

Ok, so it's no longer the premiere land speed record space in your opinion. It never was. Bonneville clearly holds that distinction in the minds of the public. Easily accessible from I-80 and with sanctioned races every year, it's a simple matter of location, location, location. The Black Rock will never come close. Thrust SST gave the place more publicity than it's had in the past 100 years. But it's still a candle compared to the spotlight of Bonneville.

I just thought of something....what if the event was returned to one of the "hanging playas" where it was for one of the previous years and taken off the main playa? Would this address your concerns?

I know one thing. I am thankful that BM enlightened me that the playa even exists. It's truly a special, magikal place. For the past 5 years it has consumed my mind and changed my life many times over. And my story with the playa is not through yet. But that story...is for another day.

[allanon2]

ummm black rock rick is a resident
you have no clue who he is do you? so how can you make that statement. but others wont check into it nd just ebelive you.

also there is a guy who leads backpackign and 4x4 trips that agree with what was said about the playa and dirt issues.
he is known as treecutter. well thats his email address.

ttyl
rex


( sorry, forgot to address content)

Of the people you posted for, none of them are locals

A II Z - NOT A RESIDENT

Taniwha - NOT A RESIDENT

Black Rock Ric - NOT A RESIDENT

This is what people harp on you for, incomplete and inacurate information.

---
rodent (putting the eek in geek)[/quote]

[allanon2]

You don't take the extra time out to reread and correct your posts, you don't take time out to attend a BLM meeting about the issue (playa serpents) that you're currently harping on BMORG for. Get serious or shut the fuck up!

Secondly,
You say that the serpents that you've seen, when were you on the Black Rock last?

1986
1989
1990
1992
1996
and about 2-3 times a year since 1997
and maybe 5 times in 2003
umm is that enough?

the BLM meeting a few weeks ago was 2-3 hours long. and only part of it was about the dunes. I have put all my comments in their public record and it wouldn't surpirse me if thats the reason why it was brought up this year. I live 6-7 hours away and 12-14 hours of driving for 2-3 hours of meetings umm
kinda excesive escpaily when they already know my evidence.


and is it my job of BLM to protect rhe NCA?
heck they get over 600K from permitfees and all that money is supposed to be spent in the NCA on special projects and such. they can spend that money of studies.


here is a email i got from someone that cares and knows much abut the permit fee money.
If BLM gets over $600,000 from Burning Man in fee demo money where does
it
all go?
According to the law, it should go to visible, on the ground
improvements
for recreation in the Black Rock Area. Do you think it does? It must
not or
otherwise there would be something to see on the desert. As the LARGEST
fee
demo event nationwide, you'd think it would even be mentioned on
http://www.blm.gov/recreation/fees/index.htm

Others have noticed this alleged misappropriation of funds.
http://resourcescommittee.house.gov/arc ... denner.pdf
http://www.canyoncountryzephyr.com/june ... /sucks.htm

When is someone going to speak out against WFO and stand up for the
Black
Rock?

the above was a copy of a email i reci\eived about eh permit fee issue and money c\that can be used to check and get data and deign and mitigate problems

[allanon2]

we will abide by that
and remeber you guys can't come out and talk to use if we are 150 feet away from the fence no bm rangers outside the fence
only blm and sherifs

Not surprisingly this is more incorrect info Wrecks. Re-read - or have someone read to you - the permit approval stipulations.

here is the section
section 40
http://www.stopburningman.org/04permit/ ... _Stips.doc

40. The permit boundary is defined as 50 yards from the outside of the perimeter fence. The perimeter fence will serve as the event boundary for participants. The area between the permit boundary and the perimeter fence (50 buffer of the fence) is closed to camping and motorized vehicles. During the event, only BLM staff, Black Rock City LLC staff, or other authorized persons are permitted within the public closure area. The permittee, staff and volunteers will not stop, detain or question public users, outside of the perimeter fence.

[Tancorix]

Ouch. With cites even. Double ouch.

[rodent]

it would solve 90% of the all the problems that people in general care about.

the land salers woudl be happy
the 4x4 group happy
the peopel that in geenral care about the lake bed happy
tc.

salers, peopel, geenral

PROOFREAD YOUR POSTS!!!

[TheJudge]

and remeber you guys can't come out and talk to use if we are 150 feet away from the fence

Watch me.

If there is a reasonable suspicion that you may make a run for the fence when it gets dark, you'll have lots of people stopping by to say hello.

And FYI, someone camping 150 feet from the fence is in violation of the BLM desert closure restrictions.