My first reaction on hearing the FCC was shutting down BRC radio stations was to ask if they didn't have anything better to do. And the reduced power made me sad since RF Burning Man has for many years been my first and last contact with the Playa going in and out.
And while I don't know if the shutdown of the stations was a causal factor, but to me the audio environment at this year's event was much more pleasant. Fewer camps that existed primarily to inflict their musical tastes on their near (and not so near) neighbours whether the neighbours wanted it or not.
And more live music! I'm more willing to embrace anything a lot more if it's live.
And while I'm not particularly out to add more and more rules to BRC, it made me wonder how pleasant a Burning Man with no recorded music (or at least no recorded music audible far outside your camp) would be.
I doubt it will happen. It seems half the city comes to rave and spin, and the other half resents them (at least the we're loud because we are loud types.) But it's nice to think about. And no, spinning is not live music, sorry, even if done with more creativity than average.
In the past it seemed a lot of radio stations existed to provide an excuse to play the music loudly out speakers. That almost nobody outside of the local camp was listening over the air, but since it felt stupid to pretend to be a radio station without broadcasting, that is what people did. This seemed to be reduced with the FCC crackdown.
Of course, if dancing all night at techno clubs is what Burning Man means to you, you'll vehemently disagree with this concept. But this issue is always contentious, because "large scale sound art" is the one major form at Burning Man that forces itself upon others, with no choice. Music is a very important artform, but it's 10 times better live than recorded. And more in the spirit of radical SELF-expression. Playing recorded music shows your tastes but is really just the relaying of somebody else's expression, not yours.
Was BM better without the radio stations? With live music?
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RebA!
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- Location: Ballard (thats Seattle for others)
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I didnt know or realize that the radiostations had been stopped until our 3rd or 4th day outthere when I was sititng in camp trying to find something to listen to. All i found was 94.5 bmir. So from my perspective. I hardly noticed.
But.. I did hear more live music (and a shit load of bad kareoke, buts a whole nother topic) so I think thats cool.
But.. I did hear more live music (and a shit load of bad kareoke, buts a whole nother topic) so I think thats cool.
"My husband and I are either going to buy a dog or have a child. We can't decide whether to ruin our carpets or ruin our lives."
--Rita Rudner
--Rita Rudner
being a tuba player I much prefer live music only, BUT its nice to be able to go dance to DJ music when my lips have too many blisters on them to play. having them placed at 2 and 10 o'clock makes it hard for accoustic guys to find a spot where we can do more expresive stuff like operas, and low volume experimental stuff.
the radio was a tad slow (read: commercial slock), and I wish there was some kind of talk radio out on the playa (people taking about whats out there, hot spots, cool things).
The real drag is small "art" golfcarts with HUGH speakers (usually blown by day two) roaming around with volume turned to 11. what the point?
the radio was a tad slow (read: commercial slock), and I wish there was some kind of talk radio out on the playa (people taking about whats out there, hot spots, cool things).
The real drag is small "art" golfcarts with HUGH speakers (usually blown by day two) roaming around with volume turned to 11. what the point?
I didn't realize there were FCC issues - just that I could only pick up 3 damn stations. Further compounding this, Burning Man Information Radio was a misleading name this year as there was a complete lack of information. I heard interviews with folks that didn't quite make sense until I realized they were replaying an interview FROM LAST FUCKING YEAR!!! I was hoping for news on the white out, or if the temple burn would be delayed at all, or any other fucking relevant bit of information.
Of course, space is weird. maybe I just happened to tune into a signal that had been bouncing around the atmosphere for exactly a year. maybe.
Of course, space is weird. maybe I just happened to tune into a signal that had been bouncing around the atmosphere for exactly a year. maybe.
after radio stations, TV and the Internet, the next steps are:
- a cellular tower, so that cellphones will work on the playa.
- paving the playa (no dust, no more mud when it rains)
- bringing water and electric hook-ups to RV's (no more buzzing generators!)
- sewage and garbage collection
- permanent 365 days/year BM camp
- an ATM distributing special BM-dollars that can be used at the central cafe
- BM becomes part of the Disney-world entertainment group
- a cellular tower, so that cellphones will work on the playa.
- paving the playa (no dust, no more mud when it rains)
- bringing water and electric hook-ups to RV's (no more buzzing generators!)
- sewage and garbage collection
- permanent 365 days/year BM camp
- an ATM distributing special BM-dollars that can be used at the central cafe
- BM becomes part of the Disney-world entertainment group
Last edited by Tristan on Fri Sep 05, 2003 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bradtem
- Posts: 502
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The question...
While I agree it's unlikely the DJs are about to depart, it strikes me the strongest division in the city is between those who make techno/rave camps at full volume, and view it as their purpose for going, and those who feel such camps (and cars) are the major (non-natural) detractor from enjoyment of their time in the city.
You can of course have both, we do. And while there have been efforts to move the loud camps to the ends of the city, or to have a loud and quiet end, or to have rules about decibels etc. they haven't worked very well because you're not going to get far battling against music. But an emphasis on live music might do wonders. It lets those who want to truly self-express with music do their stuff. But live music is a little more self-limiting. It's a lot harder to run it all night and into the dawn. Some will do it, but fewer, mostly camps dedicated to the concept.
We had live music in our camp most nights (we've never been a recorded music camp) and this time it was amplfied but it's much better received than anything recorded.
For me, one of the great things about BM has been how the creativity is individual and personal. Each artist and camp presents their own work. Costumes are almost always original. There is one guy who goes around in a spiderman suit but he's one in a thousand. With the exception of Thunderdome most structures are original. Most art cars are original, and even those that aren't (star wars landspeeder etc.) are highly creative.
And lot of the music is original, or partly original (mashups etc.) but a lot is just playing somebody else's music, and louder than needed, and If I could remove one thing from BM that would be it, and I know a lot of folks agree.
You can of course have both, we do. And while there have been efforts to move the loud camps to the ends of the city, or to have a loud and quiet end, or to have rules about decibels etc. they haven't worked very well because you're not going to get far battling against music. But an emphasis on live music might do wonders. It lets those who want to truly self-express with music do their stuff. But live music is a little more self-limiting. It's a lot harder to run it all night and into the dawn. Some will do it, but fewer, mostly camps dedicated to the concept.
We had live music in our camp most nights (we've never been a recorded music camp) and this time it was amplfied but it's much better received than anything recorded.
For me, one of the great things about BM has been how the creativity is individual and personal. Each artist and camp presents their own work. Costumes are almost always original. There is one guy who goes around in a spiderman suit but he's one in a thousand. With the exception of Thunderdome most structures are original. Most art cars are original, and even those that aren't (star wars landspeeder etc.) are highly creative.
And lot of the music is original, or partly original (mashups etc.) but a lot is just playing somebody else's music, and louder than needed, and If I could remove one thing from BM that would be it, and I know a lot of folks agree.
yeah, same here. this completely pissed me off, especially the 2002 interview. bmir was completely useless for anyone seeking actual information. i like the music programming on bmir, but i'd rather it made no pretenses about being an information source. or perhaps we could supplement 94.5 with an AM all-information station. i eventually found information about the storms by flipping around every single channel on my talkabout radio and asking if anyone had heard a weather report. not very effective, however.diggum wrote:I didn't realize there were FCC issues - just that I could only pick up 3 damn stations. Further compounding this, Burning Man Information Radio was a misleading name this year as there was a complete lack of information. I heard interviews with folks that didn't quite make sense until I realized they were replaying an interview FROM LAST FUCKING YEAR!!! I was hoping for news on the white out, or if the temple burn would be delayed at all, or any other fucking relevant bit of information.
even though i don't spend much time listening to the radio, i missed the presence of radio stations, a lot. for some attendees, pirate radio is their art, and the lack of pirate radio broadcasters sanitized the atmosphere.
i was really upset by the decision, and i wish that bmorg could explore a legal avenue to fighting the FCC on behalf of participants.
as for the ongoing loud music vs quiet music debate, i personally am sick of bad house music on the playa, but it's the participants who should shape the event, not the rules. if people want to hear bad house music, then they should be able to set up a place to go shake it to bad house. dancing and raving is just as much about the experience and the people as it is about the music.
my first year at burning man was 1996, and the only rule i remember about sound was "bring earplugs". complaining about sound amounts to interfering with someone else's personal experience, and that nonsense belongs in a gated community, not burning man.
remember, the same rules you use to oppress other people can and will be used against you someday, so be careful what you ask for. if you want more live music at burning man, do your part by performing or arranging for others to perform. spread the meme, and help shape the event constructively.
i was really upset by the decision, and i wish that bmorg could explore a legal avenue to fighting the FCC on behalf of participants.
as for the ongoing loud music vs quiet music debate, i personally am sick of bad house music on the playa, but it's the participants who should shape the event, not the rules. if people want to hear bad house music, then they should be able to set up a place to go shake it to bad house. dancing and raving is just as much about the experience and the people as it is about the music.
my first year at burning man was 1996, and the only rule i remember about sound was "bring earplugs". complaining about sound amounts to interfering with someone else's personal experience, and that nonsense belongs in a gated community, not burning man.
remember, the same rules you use to oppress other people can and will be used against you someday, so be careful what you ask for. if you want more live music at burning man, do your part by performing or arranging for others to perform. spread the meme, and help shape the event constructively.
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bradtem
- Posts: 502
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- Burning Since: 1998
- Location: Silicon Valley
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Sound is special
I think sound is in a special class (along with smells and activity dangerous to others.) If somebody's art offends you visually, you can just not look at it, and it would have to be impressively offensive to wake you up in the morning!
There are many forms of expression which people can avoid if its not their thing, and they should be unfettered. But I don't think it's out of line to talk about how to manage the forms which forcefully intrude into other people's spaces. And to suggest that bringing up the complaint is interfering with somebody else's space, well that's nuts.
There are limits on sound. That's not new. However, they are only marginally effective. Some people believe that unless they are loud enough to bother the people who have not come to hear their music, they aren't loud enough.
I would oppose any rule that tried to judge the style of music, be it bad techno or otherwise. If a camp wants to play bad music, let them play it, it's my choice if I will want to socialize there.
But when they want to make it hard to hear your neighbour 200 yards away in another camp, is this not a question?
There are many forms of expression which people can avoid if its not their thing, and they should be unfettered. But I don't think it's out of line to talk about how to manage the forms which forcefully intrude into other people's spaces. And to suggest that bringing up the complaint is interfering with somebody else's space, well that's nuts.
There are limits on sound. That's not new. However, they are only marginally effective. Some people believe that unless they are loud enough to bother the people who have not come to hear their music, they aren't loud enough.
I would oppose any rule that tried to judge the style of music, be it bad techno or otherwise. If a camp wants to play bad music, let them play it, it's my choice if I will want to socialize there.
But when they want to make it hard to hear your neighbour 200 yards away in another camp, is this not a question?
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Sard Rocklifter
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:43 am
- Burning Since: 1995
- Location: Pt. Richmond, CA
s5 wrote:... i missed the presence of radio stations, a lot. for some attendees, pirate radio is their art, and the lack of pirate radio broadcasters sanitized the atmosphere. ...
i was really upset by the decision (to ban pirate stations), and i wish that bmorg could explore a legal avenue to fighting the FCC on behalf of participants.
... but it's the participants who should shape the event, not the rules. ... complaining about sound amounts to interfering with someone else's personal experience, and that nonsense belongs in a gated community, not burning man....
remember, the same rules you use to oppress other people can and will be used against you someday, so be careful what you ask for. if you want more live music at burning man, do your part by performing or arranging for others to perform. spread the meme, and help shape the event constructively.
Agreed and agreed. Pirate radio belongs at Burning Man, and I too wonder what kind of pressure caused BMorg to knuckle under to the FCC. How bad could interference from playa bands be for the rest of the US? Heh. The more creative the expression, the more character it brings to our fair burg, and I hope this leads to some discussion between BMorg, the FCC, and those who want to broadcast during the event. Some of my favourite memories from over the years on the playa are of assorted radio broadcasts, I missed that this year. And Information Radio needed a damn sight more information. A sad joke, that title. So who's up for trolling for information for the station next year?
As far as the DJ/live music debate goes, it is true that BRC is only the sum of its parts, and if you are part, bring your sounds and encourage others to do so. Just don't play "We Are the World" at ear-shattering levels, repeatedly, and expect no-one to complain
I love the DJs, I love the live music, all the sounds of the playa, and I love that everyone has a place to put their sounds out to air.
1996 Techno Getto/Village
Hey s5, remember back in 1996 at BM, the rave camp was called Techno Village or Getto and it was situated 2 miles North East from center camp.I loved it out there ,if you wanted to party and go off dancing all night ,that was where you went.Apparently alot of people weren't happy about the situation ,so there was no electronica segregation after that.As for the noise level that particular year,I personally don't remember a problem with it,keeping in mind that I am there to see,be part of ,taste,touch,feel,hear,smell(?)etc........every possible thing I can in the limited amount of time we have,in other words I'm not there to sleep,I probably didn't sleep(to many things to do,hoss!) and I don't have too much empathy for people who can't.If you really need to sleep ,you will,noise or no noise.(bring earplugs)And we were camping next to and sort of joined with about 80 people from SF ,quite a few of them were DJ's ,that played awesome music(luckily for us) at the right time ...... morning music, an afternoon beat or two and night time bliss for a couple hours. 
:mrgreen:Loved what you said about oppression backfiring on the oppressor.So true
:mrgreen:Loved what you said about oppression backfiring on the oppressor.So true -
Ranger Mickey
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:50 am
- Location: San Francisco
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I spoke to the folks at K-SVERT, a "pirate" radio station (albeit in the open on the Esplanade), about this FCC business.s5 wrote:...i wish that bmorg could explore a legal avenue to fighting the FCC on behalf of participants...
They checked, could find no complaints anywhere in the area in the past year, and concluded that it was a hoax. They broadcast all week and had no problems. I heard no mention made of any FCC folks being spotted on the playa, so either they (and any other stations) where under the output limit or the FCC decided not to come to our party or it was all a hoax.
I'm still not sure which of these is actually true. I'm interested, tho.
I loved the radio stations in years past, and one of my few regrets about the early years is that I didn't have any way of capturing radio broadcasts. They were BRILLANT!
[url=http://www.sattlers.org/mickey/burningMan/]Rangering since 1996[/url]...
[Rangers] do their best to stay unobtrusive. They are always there when needed but remarkably hard to find if you just want to point at one. -- Jay Schneider
[Rangers] do their best to stay unobtrusive. They are always there when needed but remarkably hard to find if you just want to point at one. -- Jay Schneider
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Ranger Mickey
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Not just yet, thanks, but I did download the graphic and I saved it.
I'm sure it'll come in handy.
It's just amazing that others are saying "disneyfication" and using mickey ears; I've been using the magic kingdom as a comparison point to the ever-mellower BM for several years now...
I'm sure it'll come in handy.
It's just amazing that others are saying "disneyfication" and using mickey ears; I've been using the magic kingdom as a comparison point to the ever-mellower BM for several years now...
[url=http://www.sattlers.org/mickey/burningMan/]Rangering since 1996[/url]...
[Rangers] do their best to stay unobtrusive. They are always there when needed but remarkably hard to find if you just want to point at one. -- Jay Schneider
[Rangers] do their best to stay unobtrusive. They are always there when needed but remarkably hard to find if you just want to point at one. -- Jay Schneider
Yes, no more enormous napalm canon shooting 100+ feet long flame across the playa, no more gigantic tesla coil with virtually no fence, new safety line preventing people from climbing to the very top of thunderdome, no more fireworks in the man shooting sparkles in the crowd.
Next year I wouldn't be surprised if thunderdome has a safety net!
Next year I wouldn't be surprised if thunderdome has a safety net!
Once again, too much fucking techno
I got very peeved this year at the Bayou Jamboree Wedensday night. They had this great bunch of acoustic muiscians playing down-home Lousiana tunes, and unless you were standing next to them, they were totally drowned out by the techno-crap coming from across the street. It did not appear, I should add, that the neighbors were having a party of their own; they were just blasting it for the sake of being loud.
That doesn't have anything to do with radio, though. I don't think that there's any relationship at all between pirate radio and the other music on the playa. Nobody's pulling out there instruments or setting up their turntables just because nothing good's on the radio.
I do think BMIR relies too much on recorded stuff, but on the other hand I was only able to volunteer to do one shift (Moday late morning). How many did you do?
That doesn't have anything to do with radio, though. I don't think that there's any relationship at all between pirate radio and the other music on the playa. Nobody's pulling out there instruments or setting up their turntables just because nothing good's on the radio.
I do think BMIR relies too much on recorded stuff, but on the other hand I was only able to volunteer to do one shift (Moday late morning). How many did you do?
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Kinetic
New 04 BM project list:Tristan wrote:after radio stations, TV and the Internet, the next steps are:
- a cellular tower, so that cellphones will work on the playa.
- paving the playa (no dust, no more mud when it rains)
- bringing water and electric hook-ups to RV's (no more buzzing generators!)
- sewage and garbage collection
- permanent 365 days/year BM camp
- an ATM distributing special BM-dollars that can be used at the central cafe
- BM becomes part of the Disney-world entertainment group
Cellular signal jammer.
The generators to RV's idea...it might not happen so simply but I'm waiting to hear that the Center Camp "Lanceland - We Power the playa" grid has people asking that it be extended...first to major theme camps, then on and on it goes.
Sewage and garbage collection...think about it, it's already seemed to expand this year so this idea is not far fetched.
The special BM ATM....Larry and the ORG might feel that the gifting economy is no longer functional in a city of 30,000 due to the higher number of people who don't give a damn...the gifting economy gets buried and we get Larry bucks to spend....could happen....
I started out wanting to rip the post but the more I think about it...I hope this is not BRC's and the ORG's future. Larry does have 2 more stages for BM that he hasn't revealed yet...this could happen.
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bradtem
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- Burning Since: 1998
- Location: Silicon Valley
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Power grids
Well, let's face it. The heavy generator use at Burning Man is pretty unecological. The Earth Guardians really are Playa guardians. Not that we should not protect the Playa, but Burning Man comes with a big cost to the air.
The smaller the generator, the less efficient -- the more pollution it makes per watt. And the more noise, by a large factor. A number of camps now bring a tow-along 25kw generator and power the whole camp rather than have all those individual ones running. And it's a pain if you are camped next to the exhaust from an RV's generator.
But yes, this is not self-reliance when you start having a power grid and services. There are times when not being a gross polluter may mean you give up some self-reliance.
The smaller the generator, the less efficient -- the more pollution it makes per watt. And the more noise, by a large factor. A number of camps now bring a tow-along 25kw generator and power the whole camp rather than have all those individual ones running. And it's a pain if you are camped next to the exhaust from an RV's generator.
But yes, this is not self-reliance when you start having a power grid and services. There are times when not being a gross polluter may mean you give up some self-reliance.
I understand that large art camps may need electricity, but small individual camps don't need any. It's just a luxury that some people cannot part with. Just like ice-boxes. I did not have an ice-box, still I kept fresh fruits and vegetable the entire week. How ? Just in a plastic box covered by a wet towel. Keeps it cold with just evaporation. All you need is a bit of extra water. Old technology!
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bradtem
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- Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:27 pm
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Electricity
Well, I use a lot of electricity myself, but then I do a lot with it, including lighting my art, running the computer and the phone (yes we had a working phone, calling the outside world, 2 of them in fact, in our camp. Not that you truly need this, I did it only because it was cool to do it.) But because I do lots of digital photography, power is important.
Yes, a small camp with just a few people doesn't need a generator or a grid. One year I came with just my solar panel and batteries and did just fine. All of alternative energy zone and hushville gets buy without a generator.
Of course the amplified sound camps need their power, whether we wish them to have it or not.
And since BRC is so much a night city, having power has become a must for decoration. Of course flourescents are the way to go if you use electric lights, or of course coleman lanterns.
I don't know if anybody on the power grid runs an electric fridge. Of course most RVs have a propane fridge. When I have rented an RV it is a wonderful thing to have, I must say.
Yes, a small camp with just a few people doesn't need a generator or a grid. One year I came with just my solar panel and batteries and did just fine. All of alternative energy zone and hushville gets buy without a generator.
Of course the amplified sound camps need their power, whether we wish them to have it or not.
And since BRC is so much a night city, having power has become a must for decoration. Of course flourescents are the way to go if you use electric lights, or of course coleman lanterns.
I don't know if anybody on the power grid runs an electric fridge. Of course most RVs have a propane fridge. When I have rented an RV it is a wonderful thing to have, I must say.
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Kinetic
Re: Power grids
This year I ran out of time and money and grabbed a clearance Coleman Powermate 1850 from Home Borg.....and your description fits it perfectly. But as for small generators, the Honda and Yamaha units are the pinnacle of genny technology right now....I feel they would be cleaner than the 25kw quiet power units I observed out there. I had to put in a plug for the Yamahas...Flux had one next door and it was so quiet you didn't even know it was there and it can run up to 12 hours at 1/4 load. Very nice units to have!bradtem wrote:The smaller the generator, the less efficient -- the more pollution it makes per watt. And the more noise, by a large factor. A number of camps now bring a tow-along 25kw generator and power the whole camp rather than have all those individual ones running. And it's a pain if you are camped next to the exhaust from an RV's generator.
But yes, this is not self-reliance when you start having a power grid and services. There are times when not being a gross polluter may mean you give up some self-reliance.
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bradtem
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I would doubt it. I have heard them, they are good, but not nearly so good as the big ones.
I had the exact opposite, but barely used it. The Coleman Ultimate is a 2-stroke DC generator. It puts out 90 amps DC at 12v, ideal for charging batteries. It has a 1kw inverter for AC needs as well.
Now, because it is 2-stroke it is noisy and smelly, so it wasn't perfect. But the general idea is one I wish they would make more. Especially now that high power inverters are cheap. This is only 23lbs, which is great, but next time if they made it I would buy one with a cleaner and quieter 4-cycle engine. This is what you want for power while camping. Run the generator a short time (when nobody cares about the noise) to power up a battery bank, then draw power on demand.
Our camp has run this way for a while, with an 800 amp-hour battery cart that runs all main camp electricity. Clif has a 70 amp charger to hook into AC generators when needed, but a smaller DC generator would be even better.
Even this noisy 2-stroke is not bad because you can run it somewhere remote, and you don't have to run it much. It's light (the battery weighs 3 times as much) so easy to move somewhere.
Next art project that needs power I will put a RV battery on it, and then come out every few days with this generator to run for an hour and restore the battery. I may put a phone booth on the Playa next year, totally wireless, just for the fun of people coming to this apparently disconnected phone booth and being amazed they can pick up the phone and dial folks. Of course they will all say, "Guess what? I'm at BURNING MAN!"
I had the exact opposite, but barely used it. The Coleman Ultimate is a 2-stroke DC generator. It puts out 90 amps DC at 12v, ideal for charging batteries. It has a 1kw inverter for AC needs as well.
Now, because it is 2-stroke it is noisy and smelly, so it wasn't perfect. But the general idea is one I wish they would make more. Especially now that high power inverters are cheap. This is only 23lbs, which is great, but next time if they made it I would buy one with a cleaner and quieter 4-cycle engine. This is what you want for power while camping. Run the generator a short time (when nobody cares about the noise) to power up a battery bank, then draw power on demand.
Our camp has run this way for a while, with an 800 amp-hour battery cart that runs all main camp electricity. Clif has a 70 amp charger to hook into AC generators when needed, but a smaller DC generator would be even better.
Even this noisy 2-stroke is not bad because you can run it somewhere remote, and you don't have to run it much. It's light (the battery weighs 3 times as much) so easy to move somewhere.
Next art project that needs power I will put a RV battery on it, and then come out every few days with this generator to run for an hour and restore the battery. I may put a phone booth on the Playa next year, totally wireless, just for the fun of people coming to this apparently disconnected phone booth and being amazed they can pick up the phone and dial folks. Of course they will all say, "Guess what? I'm at BURNING MAN!"