Let's face it burners

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
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stuart
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Post by stuart » Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:17 pm

that comment about dancing being an interaction with musician and dancer? Well, Strauss Jr. would have a big problem with that one.

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naga brain
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Out in the Suburbs

Post by naga brain » Fri Sep 19, 2003 11:34 am

We had a night of just a mandolin, a banjo, a guitar and some Canadians, who weren't Canadian, on drums in sort of a square...And on other early mornings there were some of these and a combination of other things. :roll:

out there at the Camp of the Perpetual Dome Builders...

naga brain
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soupman
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Post by soupman » Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:18 pm

As a DJ, promoter, raver of old, etc., I can say that never in my life have I seen ANYTHING at any rave that is even remotely comparable to what goes on at Burning Man. Does it have the same feel? In my opinion, yes. Raves back in the day WERE all about music, art, brotherhood and comeraderie, coming together with a common goal of spreading positivity through interaction and self expression.

I am imagining what has been happening to Burning Man over the last number of years (and it's only a guess, since this year was my first) is the same fate that befell the early rave scene- the thing just becomes too popular/well known and starts to get infiltrated by greedy, lazy masses who dare you to entertain them and who have put looking cool and getting fucked up before the experience of really getting into what the event is REALLY about at it's purest level.

I don't really think "just a rave" would be the right way to say it... One of my fondest memories of the festival was dancing, in the middle of the fucking desert, in front of a fucking 30+ ft. wide boombox, taking a step back, looking up at the star-splattered sky (a rarity in Chicago), taking a deep breath and pleasantly noting that I hadn't felt this way in years. Since my ravin days :mrgreen:

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Borris
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Post by Borris » Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:45 pm

soupman wrote:As a DJ, promoter, raver of old, etc., I can say that never in my life have I seen ANYTHING at any rave that is even remotely comparable to what goes on at Burning Man.
Oh I have.

Boom festival in Portugal has some resemblance (of course they have a central stage there)

but what reminded me the most of BM was Solipse festival in 99 in Hungary. that was very close in both spirit and body to BM. 30,000 european freaks in costumes, art all around the fest (alot of it made by participants, alot commisioned by the ORG) more comercial (food drinks and drugs on sale, the local hungarian beer Co. comercial banners at the event) No comercial sponsorship though and generaly the same feeling that BM has except for the desert and the self reliance parts (there we had a rainy semi forest the first 2 days and a dry hot semi forest the last 4) still it was probably the closest thing i've ever seen to BM (and for less then 100 EU ticket cost) again the major difference is that there was ONE major focal point throughout the event, the main 120KW dancefloor that worked 16 hours a day 7 days blasting out cutting edge psytrance. (BM's focal point is a temporary one, it exists for 2-3 hours during the Burn). this makes a big difference in the flow of people around the event, and this is what cancels the theory that "it's only a rave" people shift around BM too much without a permanent focal point like a rave has.

disclaimer I am a raver, I am a House Techno and Psytrance DJ, I'm Heavily into Electronic music culture. i think it is Art, i see Electronica DJing as Art.
Shit, where was i for the last week... ehm...

El Nino
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Who cares what you call it, BMan was great

Post by El Nino » Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:42 am

I appreciate all the feedback about other forms of music because I am classically trained :shock: . I also have been to Dead shows and for those that didn't know, there was at least one Grateful Dead camp with recordings of live concerts to dance to.

I found the techno music primal and not without substance as some of you had. I loved how surreal it was dancing to it at sunrise, and other times, like lunchtime.

I have really opened up to this kind of music because of Burning Man and other events with like-minded people. In other times of my life, I might have had the same reaction as some of you, but right now I am thriving on this energy.

Also, there were drum circles everywhere. I danced to those too and I was not alone. Some of it was well away from the Center Playa. Just follow your ears and soul.

Peace

Rian Jackson
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My fiddle is electronic??

Post by Rian Jackson » Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:15 pm

Damn. And here i thought i was playing irish music. The traditional kind, pre-techno. Or that improv... and then there was camp bayou... and my new friend from center camp with his guitar.... and all of those people who kept asking me to join their jams.... my campmates with their drums, guitar, trombone....

Shit. Did i go to a different burningman?

I think i turned east at Nevada....

Rian Jackson
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I work for free

Post by Rian Jackson » Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:37 pm

'Granted. It's unfortunate, but most really talented musicians probably make music for a living, and are disinclined to do it for free--in fact, paying for the privilege--at BM'

Maybe i don't count. I have only played professionally for a short time - and i'm not doing it right now.

But i played on the playa because i love to play. Granted, i played on a different instrument than i have been paid to play on.

The only reason why anyone should be a professional anything is that they love it (in my ideal world, that is).

I'm singing (free) for a benefit next month - because i love it. I know many professional musicians who get together and play for people for the privilege of making something beautiful. And further, one of the some of the most talented musicians i know are doing things completely unrelated to make their cash. I recruit musicians for benefits all the time. They all do it for free. Every time. Because they care about the cause. And i played on playa first for myself - and then for everyone else, once i realized that it was welcome instead of being unwanted noise. The greatest gifts i gave and the most priceless moment of my burn came because of that junky instrument.

I rest my case.

I CAN tell you that the playa is super harsh on instruments. Even though kept my fiddle covered up almost the entire time, it is now covered in a layer of grime. The instrument took 2 days to adjust. After that, the bow only lasted a few days before a mysterious substance killed it. I had to clean, polish, and do alcohol strippings on the playa. Since i had lousy pegs, the temp and humidity issues caused them to release. I broke a bridge my second day out and since my luthiery tools were at home, resorted to super glue. I can do this because the instrument was free and i can make new parts for it. But there is no way in HELL i would bring my good viola out there! Instruments are pretty fragile, the desert is pretty harsh. Most people with quality instruments know they are asking for disaster to bring them to the playa. Not so much a problem with a CD. This is probably the real reason that few musicians bring their instruments.

If you want to change this, learn luthiery and set up a camp solely to baby people's instruments next year. Maybe it will help. And come up with a way to vacuum seal the cases, make some humidified, temp controlled storage chambers....

OR buy a bunch of cheap guitars, fix them up, and invite people to come make music. You'll be amazed. There are tons of talented people out there itching to play. Help them make it happen.

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Angry Butterfly
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Re: I work for free

Post by Angry Butterfly » Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:14 pm

Rian Jackson wrote: I rest my case.

I CAN tell you that the playa is super harsh on instruments. Even though kept my fiddle covered up almost the entire time, it is now covered in a layer of grime. The instrument took 2 days to adjust. After that, the bow only lasted a few days before a mysterious substance killed it. I had to clean, polish, and do alcohol strippings on the playa. Since i had lousy pegs, the temp and humidity issues caused them to release. I broke a bridge my second day out and since my luthiery tools were at home, resorted to super glue. I can do this because the instrument was free and i can make new parts for it. But there is no way in HELL i would bring my good viola out there! Instruments are pretty fragile, the desert is pretty harsh. Most people with quality instruments know they are asking for disaster to bring them to the playa. Not so much a problem with a CD. This is probably the real reason that few musicians bring their instruments.

If you want to change this, learn luthiery and set up a camp solely to baby people's instruments next year. Maybe it will help. And come up with a way to vacuum seal the cases, make some humidified, temp controlled storage chambers....

.
This reminded me of one of my favorite moments, It was the second morning I was therea nd after crashing in a large tent with some old friends the night before, I got in a fight with the people I came with and still hadn't set up my tent, I crashed in their car because I just needed to be alone for awhile and when i woke up I wandered over to center camp and spent the rest of the night there, I was really homesick for my husband, worn out and was ready to hitch a ride back to san francisco the next morning, (It was still early in the week) I woke up to cello playing, and in the early sunrise i hallucinated that the cellist was a redhead, which was just my wishful thinking because one of my best friends in college who I havent kept up with was a redheaded cellist, and i was wishing it was him, Adam always helped me when I had lost my way. I was curled up listening to cello music and crying, because I always cry when I hear the cello, and remembered how Adam would have to keep his dorm room humidified for his cello and how hard the Dorm was on it, and I couldnt belive this person was willing to make such a huge sacrifice bringing his cello to the playa to play music for us, not even that many people, because it was so early. It was truely a gift and I wish I had had a chance to thank him.
I took the road less traveled, and now I would like to go back and find the paved one.

ragnar1963
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Post by ragnar1963 » Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:02 pm

Hmmm. . . I think that many musicians, once music becomes their day job--once they start relying on it to pay for rent and groceries--would be unlikely to "gift" their music if it would entail an expenditure of capital. (NB: Many, not all. Unlikely, not impossible.) Paying the ticket price + expenses to get to BM, and then on top of that giving away the skill from which you make a living. . . I'm just not very hopeful that many musicians would go for that. Nurses do volunteer at the first aid tents; journalists do volunteer for the BRC Gazette; but a lot of professional musicians just don't think that way. I've known dozens of them, and dozens of non-professionals too, and for better or worse that's generally the mindset.

Now, professional is not a synonym for good, and amateur not a synonym for bad. There are brilliant musicians perfectly willing to play for free, for the love of it, at BM or anywhere (and musicians who make good money who are pretty crappy). But generally speaking: the circumstances of BM tend to discourage attendance by those for whom music is their job; and I think this is one reason that the live music I hear at BM is not quite as strong, on average, as the visual art I see. Though there are exceptions to this tendency, and coming across them is one of the joys of being there.

Another reason is the harshness of the climate. If I get a new cello in the coming year, which is the plan, I'm bringing my current (not very good) one to BM '04. I'll play it every day; by the end of the week it'll be trashed, and I'll burn it on Sunday.

aglaia
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working for free

Post by aglaia » Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:22 pm

I asked the question about the Paddy Mirage earlier because I knew Hothouse Flowers were there, and I wanted to see if anyone had gone to see them. This would have been my first Burning Man; however, due to a major loss of funds it was decided otherwise. I can tell you this: Hothouse Flowers are professional musicians. They played a gig in San Francisco before coming out to Burning Man in order to be able to cover their expenses, which involved among other things renting equipment since they were coming in from overseas. The BMORG was highly uptight about these "international celebrities" coming in, a phrase which sent me into semi-hysterical giggles when I heard it applied to these guys.

The band loved it. They're planning on coming back next year. And if they do, they will undoubtedly play again. For free. Because music is life for them. It's as natural as breathing and prevailing as playa dust :wink: . And gifting music is part of the Irish culture.

As for me, I'm browsing the eplaya and making plans now so that next year the funding won't be an issue...

ragnar1963
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re: hothouse flowers

Post by ragnar1963 » Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:18 am

That is so cool! It would be wonderful if more musicians felt that way. (Didn't one of the members record & tour wth Tim Finn a few years back?)

I've always wondered if BMORG had a problem with celebrities attending. What if Madonna wanted to come & pitch a tent & dress up at night & use the porta-potties & gift & hang out with the other 30,500 of us? Would she be welcome?

aglaia
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Post by aglaia » Fri Sep 26, 2003 3:41 pm

In fairness to the BMORG, I think celebrities that ask to be treated as celebrities are frowned upon.

Oh, and yes, Liam was the 'L' in ALT with Andy White and Tim Finn during the Flowers' hiatus.

jbelson
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Post by jbelson » Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:13 pm

The best music I heard was from a band of rotating musicians that don't play together off the playa, but just came together and jammed while 8 topless beauties danced around me with hula-hoops.
That was one of my favorite BM moments. Not just because I was surrounded by half naked women, but because we were all lost in the music of 6 strangers who sounded like old friends. They played the night of the burn on top of the school bus with the parachute canopy. Totally rocked my world that night, and the next day.
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themessenger
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Post by themessenger » Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:50 pm

then should I take the red pill?

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shitmouse
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just a rave?

Post by shitmouse » Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:44 pm

just a rave????

you missed the mermen playing after the burn!
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Badger
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Post by Badger » Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:33 pm

Most humans are not worthy of the Mermen.
Last edited by Badger on Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Desert dogs drink deep.

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Angry Butterfly
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Working For free

Post by Angry Butterfly » Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:48 pm

I hate working for Free. It always backfires, too. It is really hard to make a living as an artist, and people really dont understand that it gets to a point where you just CAN'T work for free. Like I helped my friend with his project and probabbly did at least $1000 worth of work for free, and then he didnt understand why I couldnt afford a ticket. All that time i and energy I gave to him was the time and energy I use to make money to live on, and it is finite, people who think art is a hobby do not understand that. And then he rubbed it in my face that he bought my ticket, when If I had done the work for a client, it would have cost them 10 times the cost of the ticket, and I could have had fun instead of being treated like a pack mule, plus I would have had money to spend on gas and other expenses getting out there. On top of it all, he fucked up the design so badly that I can't even use half the peice in my portfolio, and he never even got pictures, NOT ONE. I charge everyone now. The problem is when I work for free, people take total advantage of it and treat ME as if I am WORTHLESS. My paying clients treat me with more respect. Of course, not everyone is like this, my campmates were much more appriciative of every little thing I did, wether it was welding or crushing cans, but there I was contributing to a community rather than a single person's project.
I took the road less traveled, and now I would like to go back and find the paved one.

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DE FACTO
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Re: Working For free

Post by DE FACTO » Wed Nov 05, 2003 2:08 pm

Angry Butterfly wrote:The problem is when I work for free, people take total advantage of it and treat ME as if I am WORTHLESS. My paying clients treat me with more respect. Of course, not everyone is like this, my campmates were much more appriciative of every little thing I did, wether it was welding or crushing cans, but there I was contributing to a community rather than a single person's project.
I owe you an angry butterfly.

your post is so right on.

I owed you an angry butterfly anyway before your post.

leebears
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Post by leebears » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:24 am

Okay. I have been reading all the posts that I can and haven't really come on any inforamtion that helps me here. I am a profesional musician, I am going to BM and I am planning on playing some where for someone for nothing. I have done the 'pay to play' thing, been a studio musician in LA LA land, toured and done the benefit thing. I am not going to be there and not include what I do, it is a gift (and a curse) that I need to play, without it I get a little crazy in a weird way.

I do not think that DJays are good or bad, just talented or not. They perform too but the real thing is to reach into the other part of our brains and connect with the place outside this reality and bring out music. It is from somewhere else that true art comes from, it is not from here. Artists reflect what they see, touch, hear, and feel. It is their gift to those that chose to not do the years of starving, surviving insults and generally being looked down on while they practice to give their art to the world. And yes, some of us expect to get paid for that, but we do it because we have too. No choice here, it is in your soul.

So now that the soap box just got slippery and I'm off it, what I need to know is if there is anyone with tips for a tenor sax player on finding people to play with and care of the horn. I generally do not like to play on a shitty horn but will if the desert will destroy mine.

Leebears

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stuart
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Post by stuart » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:12 am

the dust will be bad for the pads. I don't know how often you replace them, but you might need to/want to after it's trip to the playa. The dust is also corrosive so your springs might get nasty. The body, being stainless, should be okay.

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DVD Burner
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Post by DVD Burner » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:14 pm

BM used to have a stage for "MUSICIANS" when I went years ago. we never really had any problems with dust and storms. but we never had any horn players that I know of.

anyway, leebears, you've been pretty consistent about musicians playing on the playa and I was thinking about on the thread you created before asking you if it would be ok to use your thread to ask/find out who are going to be the musicians on the playa this year and where they expect/most likely will be planted.

I myself want to/am going up with my laptop/mobile wi-fi server to broadcast live musicians and it would be nice to know ahead of time who plans to be there.

Are you and other "MUSICIANS" up for this? I play Bass amoungst other instruments and am fairly fluent on most. I enjoy playing anything from jazz (Jaco Pastorious) to hard rock, alternative rock, even house/rave.

I do have a hard time with RAP.

anyhoo, I have an experimental setup I'm bringing and want to give it a total workout.

What do you think?
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leebears
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Post by leebears » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:16 pm

I am very up to this. I am very fluent on my horn and would like to play with players that have the ears to keep up. And the ears to experiment and get out there.

Very okay to get up with the musicians and where they will be. I am open to being anywheere at anytime. I will admit that I will be barely clothed and fungied out at various days... oh my, this is a vacation after all!

Totally into this... wifi to heaven.

Agreed... but have you heard 'dis iz da drum' yet? I love that album.


Do you need some one to lift the heavy wieghts? I am there...

leebears

jazzcakes
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Trombone

Post by jazzcakes » Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:35 am

Hi Guys -

I'm an accomplished jazz musician -- looking for folks to get together and play with. Been posting all over the board tonight.

I'm staying in the Pancake Playhouse annex, and will be doing some 'cake-related activities in the mornings. Come have some free breakfast, say hi, and let's get some shit happening.

Seeing a real lack of promising rhythm section leads -- maybe they're just lurking. Love playing in a tenor + trombone quintet -- that's what my preferred small group setup is.

Maybe we can find a good guitar + drummer? Anybody?

Wanna discuss some tunes? I'll shed a little before I head out. :)

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Trombone

Post by jazzcakes » Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:54 am

Hi Guys -

I'm an accomplished jazz musician -- looking for folks to get together and play with. Been posting all over the board tonight.

I'm staying in the Pancake Playhouse annex, and will be doing some 'cake-related activities in the mornings. Come have some free breakfast, say hi, and let's get some shit happening.

Seeing a real lack of promising rhythm section leads -- maybe they're just lurking. Love playing in a tenor + trombone quintet -- that's what my preferred small group setup is.

Maybe we can find a good guitar + drummer? Anybody?

Wanna discuss some tunes? I'll shed a little before I head out. :)

waltsnipe
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Post by waltsnipe » Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:09 pm

Hair of the Dog camp is the only place I've really been able to get some good jamming in over the last five years on the playa. These guys perform a thankless service, bringing a full band set-up to the playa (and sacrificing it to the playa conditions)......PA, drum kit, two electric guitar/amp setups, bass/bass amp, and even a Fender Rhodes and amp. Although they have a house band that spends a lot of time on the stage, if you go back enough there's always an eventual opportunity to get up and play.

This is where I'll be heading back to this year. I've bought a box of picks to donate to the cause (Jim Dunlop 1.00mm nylon, the world's best pick!), and I look forward to jamming with any of you guys that happen by at that time.

WaltSnipe

ps. I've heard that the guy who brings most of the equipment for Hair of the Dog isn't going this year, and that they're scrambling to get the full setup together. Cross your fingers, players!

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Post by alienfry » Thu Aug 19, 2004 7:09 pm

if Bman isnt a rave then i have no interest in going, ever. and i'd like to kindly have the past four years reimbursed.

=)
awesome oppossum

newdawn
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Post by newdawn » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:02 am

It's not so much that BM is one huge rave, it's just that each year it seems to overpower more of the city. I can't tell you the number of times I heard something this year along the lines of "Nothing against techno -- but I just can't escape it."

Anybody remember the dice on the playa, where they played jazz?

Our camp was very near the Mermen, so although we weren't right there, it was a welcome respite. But it felt like too little, too late, to some extent. Do any of us really want 47 techno camps to one other musical experience? Do we really want it to be so hard to seek out other genres?

Are the techno camps getting grant money, because they bring in the revenue? If so, that's gotta stop. Can't we just limit techno to one camp or two next year, just to see how the vibe changes, rather than giving them practically the whole esplanade, and (now) even a few spots on the playa also??? (The dice are an exception, because it was some off-in-the-distance thing you couldn't hear for 3 miles)

It's not disrespecting the electronica camps so much as just many, many people, on their hands and knees, begging for VARIETY.

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~

Post by sparkletarte » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:29 am

If you think BM is a rave, then I wonder if you've actually been to a rave, because it isn't anything like any rave I've been to.

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Post by geekster » Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:14 pm

newdawn wrote: Are the techno camps getting grant money, because they bring in the revenue? If so, that's gotta stop. Can't we just limit techno to one camp or two next year, just to see how the vibe changes, rather than giving them practically the whole esplanade, and (now) even a few spots on the playa also??? (The dice are an exception, because it was some off-in-the-distance thing you couldn't hear for 3 miles)
Our area was fairly quiet until The Pink Mammoth rolled in at 8:30 and Mars. I really didn't mind the loud music since I had pretty much prepared myself to expect it but the major discomfort I had was that they swamped our potties. We went from a pretty much walk-in situation to a huge crowd with lines and nearly full potties at some times of the day. I guess whatever they were serving must have been good because they seemed to have quite a crowd just about any time I went down that way.
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Re: It's not a rave

Post by chineseobelisk » Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:10 pm

West wrote: If it's just a rave to you, please stay home next year. The playa doesn't need any more lecherous 18 year olds sucking on binkies waving glow sticks while tripping their faces off on E.
what about 42 year olds eating bite size snickers and 'tripping their faces off' ? on E. ?
measuring the weight of smoke

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