Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by theCryptofishist » Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:42 pm

"Drift" implies movement. This is an eddy.
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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by AntiM » Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:43 pm

A vortex, perhaps?

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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by theCryptofishist » Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:45 pm

Maybe I want to be sucked out of the world of the burn and into someplace helse else.
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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by kiboy » Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:48 pm

You can't get there from here. :wink:

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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by Lonesomebri » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:02 pm

I really like this idea; participants in the Burn discussing issues effecting the Burn in the open with other Burners. There are some very good ideas here that may slow down the spread of for-profit hotels spreading on the playa. Something to think about!
some seeing eye wrote:After some discussion, the BMORG could engage the PnPs in a discussion that would result in rules which would be mandatory in placement, early entry and directed sales for 2015 and beyond and binding on regionals.

Sure the burner brain trust on ePlaya can add specific best practices, ethics, banning criteria to some ideas below.

1. Best practices:

Max camp size, working (not consulting) staff to camper ratio, individual and group transportation, street frontage, costuming, moop, camper debriefing, photography/media/social media, ...

2. Code of ethics:

Camper solicitation advertising, camper orientation, staff pay and benefits, compliance with law, conflict resolution, photography/media/social media, dismissing employees mid event, ...

3. Banned and your people banned if you:

?



To start, camp staff.

Sherpas in Nepal are paid better than sherpas at Burningman. Proving once again that the US is becoming a Third World country. Many businesses in the US reduce their labor costs by exploiting the sub-economy. Perhaps the camp manager thought that was normal?

The median income ratio between the US and Nepal is about 49x. Higher multiplier for California median income.

You can do the math, but paying BM sherpas at Nepal Sherpas rates ($500/week) corrected by the median income ratio between the US and Nepal would raise the pay of BM sherpas significantly!

The work should be paid like consulting or film crew work with extreme condition multipliers due to experience, safety, dust and the lack of medical coverage. (Maybe employer medical+evac coverage should be mandatory for sherpas?)

The ratio of BM Sherpas to camper should be raised from less than .5 to 2 with adequate time off, flexible scheduling and a 10 hour shift per day. A PnP with 240 sherpas and 120 paid campers would take on an entirely different dynamic if the sherpas were experienced costumey burners. The philosophy should shift from in-camp servants to out of camp exploration-experience partners.

Let's say we pay sherpas $4000 a week for 7x10 hours. Add say $1000 for medical, taxes, BLM, etc. per sherpa. That would raise the labor cost of the cited PnP by about $8000 per camper. That would still be 1/6 the rate paid to Sherpas in Nepal, (did we say that the US is becoming a Third World country?)
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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by unjonharley » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:49 pm

You just wont let it fucking go...

No one is going to listen to any more of your bull shit..
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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by kiboy » Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:41 pm

ha ha Image

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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by Gizmo » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:00 pm

For those who haven't been paying attention, Burning Man rarely enforces the rules they already have.

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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by kiboy » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:25 pm

Are you meaning principles or rules? Maybe if you gave some examples.

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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by Lonesomebri » Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:02 pm

unjonharley wrote:You just wont let it fucking go...

No one is going to listen to any more of your bull shit..
Yet here you are. Actually I was only bringing the thread back to it's original course by re-quoting the original post. It's not just me......
Some people consider that trolling, I guess. Quoting the original post, getting the thread back on topic?
So.................................while you are here listening to my bullshit, why not read the original post also?
Sure the burner brain trust on ePlaya can add specific best practices, ethics, banning criteria to some ideas below.

1. Best practices:

Max camp size, working (not consulting) staff to camper ratio, individual and group transportation, street frontage, costuming, moop, camper debriefing, photography/media/social media, ...

2. Code of ethics:

Camper solicitation advertising, camper orientation, staff pay and benefits, compliance with law, conflict resolution, photography/media/social media, dismissing employees mid event, ...

3. Banned and your people banned if you:

?



To start, camp staff.

Sherpas in Nepal are paid better than sherpas at Burningman. Proving once again that the US is becoming a Third World country. Many businesses in the US reduce their labor costs by exploiting the sub-economy. Perhaps the camp manager thought that was normal?

The median income ratio between the US and Nepal is about 49x. Higher multiplier for California median income.

You can do the math, but paying BM sherpas at Nepal Sherpas rates ($500/week) corrected by the median income ratio between the US and Nepal would raise the pay of BM sherpas significantly!

The work should be paid like consulting or film crew work with extreme condition multipliers due to experience, safety, dust and the lack of medical coverage. (Maybe employer medical+evac coverage should be mandatory for sherpas?)

The ratio of BM Sherpas to camper should be raised from less than .5 to 2 with adequate time off, flexible scheduling and a 10 hour shift per day. A PnP with 240 sherpas and 120 paid campers would take on an entirely different dynamic if the sherpas were experienced costumey burners. The philosophy should shift from in-camp servants to out of camp exploration-experience partners.

Let's say we pay sherpas $4000 a week for 7x10 hours. Add say $1000 for medical, taxes, BLM, etc. per sherpa. That would raise the labor cost of the cited PnP by about $8000 per camper. That would still be 1/6 the rate paid to Sherpas in Nepal, (did we say that the US is becoming a Third World country?)
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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by kiboy » Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:59 pm

Gee I thought you said you were done with all this? Image

But you're not are you? No you were never serious? Man if that isn't a good definition of trolling here I don't know what is.

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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by unjonharley » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:06 pm

Calling the OP bull shit..It is just non of your affair.. Trying to run BMorg on this board is bull.. Running your ideas here is bull.. Your ideas are just complaint in another form.. Bull shit.
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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by unjonharley » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:10 pm

Its fun reading this thread with the plonked ass hats not readable. :D :lol: mao
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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by Ratty » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:53 pm

It was a beautiful day in the bay area. Perfect weather. Perfect dinner, (Enchiladas), glass of wine. Great life to live isn't it?
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by unjonharley » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:23 pm

Ratty wrote:It was a beautiful day in the bay area. Perfect weather. Perfect dinner, (Enchiladas), glass of wine. Great life to live isn't it?
Strange beautiful weather here in OR. 85 degrees yesterday and today.. No rain until next Monday.. Putting the roses to bed for the winter..
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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by Ratty » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:25 pm

I'm a California girl. How do you put them to bed? Tuck them in, dig them up?
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by kiboy » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:34 pm

unjonharley wrote:
Ratty wrote:It was a beautiful day in the bay area. Perfect weather. Perfect dinner, (Enchiladas), glass of wine. Great life to live isn't it?
Strange beautiful weather here in OR. 85 degrees yesterday and today.. No rain until next Monday.. Putting the roses to bed for the winter..

It's been near 90 here in Ashland the last couple of daze. Weird mix of weather this year.

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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by Elderberry » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:41 pm

I love the weather in California.
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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by unjonharley » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:51 pm

Ratty wrote:I'm a California girl. How do you put them to bed? Tuck them in, dig them up?
First, cut then back. They will stop flowering.. Put down strawberry leaves or other mulch (1/2 inch) cover with composted dirt.. Then grass clippings.. The worms will eat must of the winter here.. If it looks like it will be extra cold, add a cover of oak leaves...The roses in front of the house flowered big time this last week.. Huge deep red satin..
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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by Zhust » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:59 am

I gotta say I'm trying to empathize, Lonesomebri ...

It must have been almost 10 years ago now that I was debating with the leader of a regional group. It had to do with the group claiming to be of pure and noble Burning Man heritage, yet complicit in the online bullying of the meek members of the community. I don't even remember all the details and don't care to try and relive it myself.

My point is it was fucking frustrating to be not heard—to be actively shut out.

But I also have to admit that I'm pretty lost on your point. I gather it's ... umm ... something about the leadership of Burning Man being corrupt? Maybe? Or that there is nothing being done about [insert bad thing happening at Burning Man now]? But now it looks like it's just a pissing contest with some private message bullshit that I call "too long; don't care".

Look, I think what you're getting at is that there should be some kind of action against PnP camps. But it's not like shaming people for MOOPing and shaming people into MOOP shifts (what a fucked up self-antonym of a word, by the way, but that's what you get for verbing nouns). It's a serious policy-level change that doesn't have an easy solution. By that, I mean how do you get rid of "come vacation in sunny Black Rock City" kind of camps versus "RecursiveNipple will provide potable water and handle gray water disposal" kind of camps? Is it paid staff—then what is pay, exactly? When does cooperative effort turn into using money to make problems go away?

I'm asking these questions rhetorically—as much to ask myself as to ask you.

In any case, there is no precedent for the BMORG to come out and say, "we hereby ban the following kinds of camps." All they have ever done is to encourage or discourage certain kinds of behavior. For them to do so would be chillingly dictatorial.

Plus, my central thesis is: we have not even defined exactly what these PnP camps are—the list of properties that make them so reprehensible. I think paid staff is a big part of it—that there are people on-Playa who are paid employees of other participants. Of course, the port-o-john maintainers are also paid staff but that seems to be pretty okay with everyone. Are the people who drive around sucking out gray water and supplying potable water okay? Is it the idea of people being paid for a subset group offensive? If so, how small must the subset be?

Maybe the simple solution is to require a permit to be employed on-Playa, and you can't both be an employee and be a ticket-holder. Or maybe that be handled on a case-by-case basis (what if someone is attending who needs some kind of assistant for health reasons, for instance). But then what's the penalty? The devil wringing his hands on my shoulder suggests the ticket-holders who are employees simply get sent home, leaving the incapable rich people to whither and die. But that does no good for anybody.

I also compare it to the Media Mecca action against unlicensed video equipment. You know, pretty much no on-Playa action ... ok, as far as I know ... but it's not like I don't see recta of khaki-wearing middle-aged men with hungry memory cards flocking to the Critical Tits Parade (and yes, "recta" is the proper collective noun for said greedy pervs). So I just assume no action. And to be honest, there probably shouldn't be a Media Mecca Police Force. Just like there probably shouldn't be a PnP Enforcement Team.

So that's where I'm at in this discussion: straight to intolerable bureaucracy. Any better ideas?
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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by FIGJAM » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:06 am

BM green cards!!! :lol:
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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by kiboy » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:34 am

Zhust wrote:I gotta say I'm trying to empathize, Lonesomebri ...

It must have been almost 10 years ago now that I was debating with the leader of a regional group. It had to do with the group claiming to be of pure and noble Burning Man heritage, yet complicit in the online bullying of the meek members of the community. I don't even remember all the details and don't care to try and relive it myself.

My point is it was fucking frustrating to be not heard—to be actively shut out.

But I also have to admit that I'm pretty lost on your point. I gather it's ... umm ... something about the leadership of Burning Man being corrupt? Maybe? Or that there is nothing being done about [insert bad thing happening at Burning Man now]? But now it looks like it's just a pissing contest with some private message bullshit that I call "too long; don't care".

Look, I think what you're getting at is that there should be some kind of action against PnP camps. But it's not like shaming people for MOOPing and shaming people into MOOP shifts (what a fucked up self-antonym of a word, by the way, but that's what you get for verbing nouns). It's a serious policy-level change that doesn't have an easy solution. By that, I mean how do you get rid of "come vacation in sunny Black Rock City" kind of camps versus "RecursiveNipple will provide potable water and handle gray water disposal" kind of camps? Is it paid staff—then what is pay, exactly? When does cooperative effort turn into using money to make problems go away?

I'm asking these questions rhetorically—as much to ask myself as to ask you.

In any case, there is no precedent for the BMORG to come out and say, "we hereby ban the following kinds of camps." All they have ever done is to encourage or discourage certain kinds of behavior. For them to do so would be chillingly dictatorial.

Plus, my central thesis is: we have not even defined exactly what these PnP camps are—the list of properties that make them so reprehensible. I think paid staff is a big part of it—that there are people on-Playa who are paid employees of other participants. Of course, the port-o-john maintainers are also paid staff but that seems to be pretty okay with everyone. Are the people who drive around sucking out gray water and supplying potable water okay? Is it the idea of people being paid for a subset group offensive? If so, how small must the subset be?

Maybe the simple solution is to require a permit to be employed on-Playa, and you can't both be an employee and be a ticket-holder. Or maybe that be handled on a case-by-case basis (what if someone is attending who needs some kind of assistant for health reasons, for instance). But then what's the penalty? The devil wringing his hands on my shoulder suggests the ticket-holders who are employees simply get sent home, leaving the incapable rich people to whither and die. But that does no good for anybody.

I also compare it to the Media Mecca action against unlicensed video equipment. You know, pretty much no on-Playa action ... ok, as far as I know ... but it's not like I don't see recta of khaki-wearing middle-aged men with hungry memory cards flocking to the Critical Tits Parade (and yes, "recta" is the proper collective noun for said greedy pervs). So I just assume no action. And to be honest, there probably shouldn't be a Media Mecca Police Force. Just like there probably shouldn't be a PnP Enforcement Team.

So that's where I'm at in this discussion: straight to intolerable bureaucracy. Any better ideas?
What an excellent post, thanks for sharing it. This helps me clarify my own position on the matter.

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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by jneilvindy » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:43 am

To me it's about making a buck off of burning man.

It doesn't affect my burn but it does seem to affect the concept or vibe of burning man to be turning a profit off of running a camp.

BM to me seems like family. We do crazy stuff. Make and share our ideas and dreams with each other for fun and amusement and now and then a deep thought or meaningful yank on a heartstring. In it together in the dust and the misery the good and the bad.

A PnP that offers up goods and services to help someone reach the burn who is struggling, travelling crazy distances ect. just so they can dance in the dust with less worries, cool.

A PnP that wraps it all up in a slick brochure looking to turn a buck off of some rich person's laziness in doing it themselves...seems sleazy.

Throw in the fact that it's seemingly on ORG member, who knows what strings were pulled (if any) to secure tickets, placement ect. and it just gets uglier to me.

With tickets being a slam-dunk sellout now I think the gap between those who get them and those who don't is only going to get wider. Having people at the event who's only purpose is to serve those rich enough to afford an insider connection is even uglier when people are on the outside looking in.

I have faith the ORG is going to address this issue in a fair and measured way. I'm sure the guilty party will throw him or herself on the appropriate sword at the appropriate time, some rules and regulations will be laid down, some ticket issues clarified and life will go on.

2015 burn is gonna be awesome, hope I can make it!

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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by kiboy » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:10 pm

jneilvindy wrote:To me it's about making a buck off of burning man.

It doesn't affect my burn but it does seem to affect the concept or vibe of burning man to be turning a profit off of running a camp.

BM to me seems like family. We do crazy stuff. Make and share our ideas and dreams with each other for fun and amusement and now and then a deep thought or meaningful yank on a heartstring. In it together in the dust and the misery the good and the bad.

A PnP that offers up goods and services to help someone reach the burn who is struggling, travelling crazy distances ect. just so they can dance in the dust with less worries, cool.

A PnP that wraps it all up in a slick brochure looking to turn a buck off of some rich person's laziness in doing it themselves...seems sleazy.

Throw in the fact that it's seemingly on ORG member, who knows what strings were pulled (if any) to secure tickets, placement ect. and it just gets uglier to me.

With tickets being a slam-dunk sellout now I think the gap between those who get them and those who don't is only going to get wider. Having people at the event who's only purpose is to serve those rich enough to afford an insider connection is even uglier when people are on the outside looking in.

I have faith the ORG is going to address this issue in a fair and measured way. I'm sure the guilty party will throw him or herself on the appropriate sword at the appropriate time, some rules and regulations will be laid down, some ticket issues clarified and life will go on.

2015 burn is gonna be awesome, hope I can make it!
Doesn't Larry make money off burning man? Other's likely too? I know of an electrician who gets paid to help set up BRC and gets a ticket and a great camp to be part of. I have no objections.

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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by jneilvindy » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:29 pm

As far as I'm concerned Larry and any/all of the founders can do whatever they like and tell the rest of us to go pound sand.

If he was running a for profit, slick-brochured PnP banking off the BM cachet then well IMO' he's Larry and can do no wrong in my book when it comes to this event.

I HOPE they are all millionaires for creating this awesome event and are stuffing their pockets full of cash yearly.

Larry! Take my money please.

Guys coming in to build infrastructure for the event, us, all to use. Awesome. Hope they get paid and aren't foolishly gifting such time and work.

I'm sure the guys cleaning the JOTS aren't paid enough. I seriously seriously doubt I'd do their job for whatever it is they are earning. Pay em more I say!

But I thought that was what BM wasn't about, the rich getting richer off the event. It being packaged and offered up as a thing for sale. If it is fine, say so and move on. PnP can rule the landscape and it's all about outside the event marketing, packaging and securing your dollars before you go, while on playa it's all gifting.

And that's the kinda clarification I have no doubt the ORG is pondering now. Which way is it ultimately going to go.

BM isn't some kind of miracle vaccum where real world services get paid in glitter and grill cheese sammiches and everyone is happy. SOME people need monetary compensation for real world services they provide. Things that benefits the community, things that are better handled in bulk than piecemeal have to be worked out with real world repercussions in mind.

To me it comes down to intent and is a moral issue. Is the ORG going to encourage for profit or not. Personally I'm fine either way and figure some kind of middle ground is going to be found based on their founding principles and beliefs in what BM is.

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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by kiboy » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:46 pm

Yeah I agree that's a real question. For myself one of the things I've really liked about BM is decommodification. But if those days are gone then it's best to just say so and see how it feels. There's a real chance I'll likely not be attending if it goes too far that way but that's not important as I'm not the creator of this event so as you point out ultimately it's not my business. There will be plenty to take my place who don't care a wit about this issue. As long as the booze and babes flow and there is some eye candy and good drugs they will likely be able to ignore selling or welcome it with open arms.

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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by forty_eight » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:56 pm

hopefully people that overpaid to stay in a moop village and want to return have realized how they got bamboozled and will build their own burn next time around

that's acculturation, sort of

DIY or get fleeced

13K ... a fool and his money.

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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by Elderberry » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:24 pm

forty_eight wrote:hopefully people that overpaid to stay in a moop village and want to return have realized how they got bamboozled and will build their own burn next time around

that's acculturation, sort of

DIY or get fleeced

13K ... a fool and his money.
We (not the camp, just my partner and I) spend nearly that much and do everything ourselves.
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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by unjonharley » Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:03 pm

Boy, Its a great sunny day here... can't find but one thing to complain about.. That is there is nothing to complain about..
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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forty_eight
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Re: Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices

Post by forty_eight » Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:13 pm

i'd rather do that than give it to someone else

are there other theme camps that organize people's gifts for their campers?

that seems awfully superficial

but then again, i haven't really figured out gifting. at least in the tchotchke sense.

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