How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
Post Reply
User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
Posts: 14506
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe
Location: Palm Springs
Contact:

How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Elderberry » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:34 pm

Here is an explanation of how PnP Casio's get placed from the Burning Man blog.

http://blog.burningman.com/2014/10/buil ... et-placed/
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

User avatar
Ratty
Posts: 5821
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:43 pm
Burning Since: 2008
Camp Name: Tiger Man

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Ratty » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:03 am

Check the thread 'Toward a PnP Code of Ethics and Best Practices'. You will find this discussion. (Such as it is). I don't expect to actually learn anything from the Borg. Ms. Kristen Berg did her best to write an article without revealing the facts and figures. She also didn't tell us the special courtesies accorded these camps.

This thread is dead unless an organizer from a large concern gets on here and enlightens us.
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

Pictures or it didn't happen Greycoyote

Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
Arthur Schopenhauer

User avatar
Jackass
Posts: 1967
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:25 pm
Location: way out in left field

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Jackass » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:04 am

Maybe next time they can address: WHY plug n play camps get placed.

How they get placed is simple to answer. Someone allotted them space and put their name on it and may have walked them out to show them where it was.

Oh yeah, they had a roundtable meeting where they made vague, optional suggestions to the heads of PnPs too....
Last edited by Jackass on Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

11th Principle: Depussyfication - Keeping Burning Man potentially lethal. Token

pink
Posts: 1370
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:30 am
Burning Since: 2005
Camp Name: Retrofrolic
Location: Stagecoach, NV

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by pink » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:04 am

You mean a 'producer' of one of the camps.
I'm not a slut, I'm good time floozy!

User avatar
Lonesomebri
Posts: 2453
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:54 pm
Burning Since: 2018
Camp Name: CAMP THREAT
Location: NorCal

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Lonesomebri » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:10 am

From the blog-
"Citizens of Black Rock City – everyone is talking about Turnkey camps and the Placement team wants you to know: we hear you! You’re speaking up on social media, talking at parties, doing deep dives at regional events. We’ve received more than 400 post-event emails and hundreds of comments through the Feedback form."

Wonder what aspect of Turnkey camps everyone was talking about? How chill they are? How radical inclusion demands they be placed? Wonder what the Citizen feedback was, the linked blog is just more cover.

And I would add, Thanks to all you glorious trouble making, rabble rousing, whining, anti-commercialization, build your burn, not sitting silent while the big boys figure it all out, and their lackeys deny there is a problem, to those true Citizens of Black Rock City who saw a problem, identified it, and now continue to not be quite, thank you, thank you, thank you. Fight the good fight.

Join the BRCCP, the only true revolutionary Turnkey camp on the playa today, membership has it's privileges; cash, checks, credit cards, pharmaceuticals accepted
Camp THREAT: Dominating the porta potties 3 years running.
"If this is the best of all possible worlds, what are the others?"
- Voltaire, Candide

User avatar
Jovankat
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:11 am
Burning Since: 2013
Camp Name: Methuselah's Children
Location: Oakland or Australia

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Jovankat » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:43 am

Jackass wrote:Maybe next time they can address: WHY plug n play camps get placed.
To be fair there was this bit on the WHY
We found it is the best interest of the broader BRC community if we do place them. The placement process starts the relationship, sets expectations about MOOP and accountability and helps us with density issues. Placement knows how large a footprint a camp needs and we can help with the guesswork of how big. The placement process also intends to inspire our Turnkey camp friends to become more like our beloved Theme Camps who have experience balancing public space with private living, and with using interactions to inspire participation...
It's just not really clear how they found this to be in the best interest of the community. A few examples of how not placing turnkeys has been bad for the community might have been useful.

Starting a relationship and setting expectations is great, what happens as the relationship progresses? What if expectations are not met? Some examples here about the effects these relationships have had and how they've grown could in interesting.

You know what else helps with working how much space a camp needs? Researching it yourself. Get involved in discussions on ePlaya/Reddit, measure the vehicles and structures you're taking and then draw a plan. Now you know how much space you need. Any information beyond that that needs to come from the BMOrg should be readily available to anyone and everyone.

Does the placement process really inspire turnkey camps to become more interactive and become theme camps? I'd like to hear some examples of this. Do turnkeys really naturally get more interactive across the years? And even if they did surely it's the experience of the event itself that does that not the process of applying for and getting a plot of land. And are there any incentives or disincentives to help this process? If a turnkey camp doesn't get more interactive over a couple of years will they stop getting placement? Maybe they should.

So yeah, it does address the why. Just not well enough I don't think.

User avatar
Popeye
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:39 pm
Burning Since: 2013
Camp Name: Beaverton
Location: Where the east wind blows

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Popeye » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:59 am

We found it is the best interest of the broader BRC community....
Paternalistic Bull Shit
nobody wants to live in a world with only one flavor...

User avatar
Jackass
Posts: 1967
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:25 pm
Location: way out in left field

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Jackass » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:11 am

Their explanation is rather weak. Wrapping it all up in feelgood, so it doesn't burn so bad.
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

11th Principle: Depussyfication - Keeping Burning Man potentially lethal. Token

User avatar
Jackass
Posts: 1967
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:25 pm
Location: way out in left field

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Jackass » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:17 am

Jovankat wrote:Does the placement process really inspire turnkey camps to become more interactive and become theme camps? I'd like to hear some examples of this. Do turnkeys really naturally get more interactive across the years?
For profit PnPs don't have to be interactive at all, that's not what they are there for
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

11th Principle: Depussyfication - Keeping Burning Man potentially lethal. Token

User avatar
Roberto Dobbisano
Posts: 2973
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:54 pm
Location: Dobbidossola, Italy.

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Roberto Dobbisano » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:17 am

im reminded of colin powell's speech to the UN.


nice guy......bad speech.
"10 principles? you cant HANDLE the 10 principles..."

User avatar
Roberto Dobbisano
Posts: 2973
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:54 pm
Location: Dobbidossola, Italy.

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Roberto Dobbisano » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:31 am

evidently the BMORG has hired morbo to head up the PR dept.



[media]
"10 principles? you cant HANDLE the 10 principles..."

User avatar
H.G.Crosby
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:47 pm
Location: Boston, New York, Paris, Tangiers

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by H.G.Crosby » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:44 am

Once I noticed I was on fire, I decided to relax and enjoy the fall™

User avatar
Corvus
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:22 pm
Burning Since: 2009
Camp Name: Poly Paradise
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Corvus » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:46 am

I think the members of the board have forgotten that Black Rock City doesn't belong to them any more than my default world city belongs to the mayor and city council -- it belongs to its citizens. If my city council announced for example that it had changed the zoning so a casino could be plunked down in the middle of a residential neighborhood, "But it's okay; we got extra fees from the developers," we would be outraged. If it turned out one of the council members owned the casino . . . well tar and feathers would not be out of the question.

I rather like the term Commodification Camp, a camp with the purpose of profiting the camp's organizer. After all, I belong a camp many would consider PnP. There about 200 campers every year and we pay $150 for the privelege in exchange for a lot of stuff -- shade, a kitchen, and a genny among others -- brought to the playa for us. After expenses there's generally a couple hundred in profits which gets carried over to the next year in anticipation of possible extra expenses. Our poor ol' generator may need to be replaced next year. We do interact with the city. Every day we have at least one event for public participation, most days two or three. If the wall-o-RVs camps did that, there'd be a lot less umbrage.

Over the years I've commented in the blogs sticking up for Burning Man in general and the BORG in particular when the whiners and sneerers post comments. I don't think I'll be doing that any more. I'd bet John Law is laughing his ass off.

User avatar
some seeing eye
Posts: 2822
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:06 pm
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: Woo
Location: The Oregon

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by some seeing eye » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:12 am

There has been a lot of controversy... so we are going to give a complete explanation...
Image
Got that?
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

User avatar
FIGJAM
Posts: 10064
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:39 am
Location: apache junction az.

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by FIGJAM » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:32 am

Burners ALWAYS know where the pee is!!!!!!!!!! :lol:
"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"

"If I can't find an answer, I'll create one!!!"

Fuck Im Good Just Ask Me

User avatar
Dr. Pyro
Posts: 4626
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:11 am
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: Barbie Death Camp & Wine Bistro
Location: Newcastle, CA
Contact:

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Dr. Pyro » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:23 am

Am I about the only one on this board who has really no problem whatsoever with Plug n Play camps?

User avatar
Ratty
Posts: 5821
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:43 pm
Burning Since: 2008
Camp Name: Tiger Man

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Ratty » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:51 am

Nope. The line forms behind Dr P. I'm fine with the camps. I don't go to Orgy camps or rap music camps etc... It's so easy to ignore things out there. I just want their tickets to be put back into the ticket pool. I have no guarantee of a ticket. All those P&P camps including their support staff. How many tickets are sold to those companies directly? 1,000...2,000... Borg will never say. Other than that little turd in the pudding, I'm fine with them being there. They can watch satellite TV In air conditioned yurts and drink mojitos all day.
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

Pictures or it didn't happen Greycoyote

Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
Arthur Schopenhauer

User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
Posts: 14506
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe
Location: Palm Springs
Contact:

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Elderberry » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:34 am

Jackass wrote:
For profit PnPs don't have to be interactive at all, that's not what they are there for
I think you hit on the problem and the solution.
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
Posts: 14506
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe
Location: Palm Springs
Contact:

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Elderberry » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:38 am

Dr. Pyro wrote:Am I about the only one on this board who has really no problem whatsoever with Plug n Play camps?
No.
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
Posts: 14506
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe
Location: Palm Springs
Contact:

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Elderberry » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:42 am

Ratty wrote: I just want their tickets to be put back into the ticket pool.
Ratty wrote:Dear Kristen Berg, We would like to know how these camps get tickets. We, (the ordinary garden variety burner), have to miss a day of work and sit at our computer praying and cursing alternately. Ditto for the registration for step tickets. Do you really guarantee these tickets to the P&Ps? How else would they do business? THAT is my biggest resentment. And believe me I'm not alone. Your blog didn't tell us any information about this. Are the rich able to simply pay the price and come to the party. Exactly how many tickets go to P&P camps. Are those people entitled to attend more than a guy that jumps through the hoops and still doesn't get a ticket? Please enlighten us. I would love to hear that those camps buy their tickets through the pre sale, main sale, step, craig's list at face value and private parties. Thank you in advance for your timely reply.
This was the one thing that article didn't address or even try explain--exactly what the ticketing procedure was for Turn Keys.
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

User avatar
Simon of the Playa
Posts: 18586
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins
Location: Rochester, Nevada.

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:43 am

Elderberry wrote:
Dr. Pyro wrote:Am I about the only one on this board who has really no problem whatsoever with Plug n Play camps?
No.

yeah, we know john....



Frida Be You & Me

User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
Posts: 14506
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe
Location: Palm Springs
Contact:

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Elderberry » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:46 am

:oops:
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
Posts: 16750
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:54 pm
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Eridu Society
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by trilobyte » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:26 am

You're not alone, Dr. Pyro. The more thought I give to the idea of turnkey operations, the less bothered I am about the amenities and whatnot I've known AnswerGirl for years and know something of the placement process, and like seeing it explained in some detail. I also liked knowing that the bona fide turnkey operations (as opposed to theme camps that just have posh amenities) are not being placed within theme camp space, the numbers are minimal, and that an effort is being made to address the issue of acculturation. To me, that's the real challenge.

I don't care that rich people go to Burning Man (they've been going for longer than I have), I don't even care that they have people helping them get their shit together (paid or unpaid). Hell, I never would have made it to the event in my first year if other people hadn't helped me. Veteran burners have been making money sewing and selling fur coats and all kinds of other stuff, yet we don't break out the torches and pitchforks if someone's got a piece of playawear that they paid for (as opposed to made themselves). Care should be taken with regards to logos and branding and the commerce taking place on the playa, just like all those other burn-related things that people pay for.. but yeah.

Acculturation is the challenge - I care that the people involved in these camps may be coming away with only a spectator experience. Part of me cares on their behalf - because if that's the experience you have, holy fuck you are seriously missing out! And part of me cares for selfish reasons - no spectators means that everything is contributing something to the cacaphonous symphony, and the result is more nonsense and interaction and fun. As I thought about that, I realized that acculturation is a challenge for every camp (regardless of budgets or income levels of the campmates). People who come and camp solo, or who join up with a minimalist camp, or sign up for some big camp where all they need is a few hundred bucks and put in a couple hours MOOPing and other than that it's a week of ridiculous partying (ie being a spectator). That's an issue for all income levels. Like I said before, I like that there's an effort being made to address the issue of acculturation. If anything, I'd like to see more of that - when I first started participating the rally cry of "no spectators!" was bigger and louder than it is today. I'm thinking about ways I can affect change within my own camp, and things we can do as a community...

Ratty/Elderberry - my understanding is that turnkey camps are not given any ticket allotments, and do not participate in the directed group sale. The forum AnswerGirl mentioned took place last summer, long after the ticket sales and after the placed camp questionnaire deadline. Participants did not receive any special amenities, other than probably having their camps visited a few times throughout the week by various Burning Man staffers who wanted to see the turnkey operations (and the fruits of their acculturation efforts) firsthand.

User avatar
unjonharley
Posts: 10280
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Elliot's naked bycycel repair
Location: Salem Or.

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by unjonharley » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:41 am

Odds are if a turn-key burner liked TTITD they will return with there own camp..
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

User avatar
Roberto Dobbisano
Posts: 2973
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:54 pm
Location: Dobbidossola, Italy.

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Roberto Dobbisano » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:59 am

my understanding is that turnkey camps are not given any ticket allotments, and do not participate in the directed group sale. The forum AnswerGirl mentioned took place last summer, long after the ticket sales and after the placed camp questionnaire deadline. Participants did not receive any special amenities,
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"10 principles? you cant HANDLE the 10 principles..."

User avatar
666isMONEY
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:16 pm
Burning Since: 2006
Camp Name: BRCCP
Contact:

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by 666isMONEY » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:32 am

Tickets, White Ocean, 2014

Image

Source:

User avatar
Just_Joe
Posts: 978
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:04 pm
Burning Since: 2020
Camp Name: Black Rock Weather
Location: Nevada

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Just_Joe » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:36 am

I'm trying to cut the BMORG some slack.
The Burning Man Project mission is to bring Burning Man to the world.
In attempt to do that, the founders probably decided that being in bed with venture capitalists, "movers and shakers", etc would be a good move.
Allocating tickets to the "more important" people may have been an experiment. If so, it failed and is now coming back to bite them on the ass.
What has emerged from the community is a feeling of betrayal and it needs to be addressed.
The community brings the Art, brings the volunteerism, brings the Theme Camps, brings the Mutant Vehicles. The community *is* Burning Man.

User avatar
Lonesomebri
Posts: 2453
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:54 pm
Burning Since: 2018
Camp Name: CAMP THREAT
Location: NorCal

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Lonesomebri » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:39 am

No doubt.
The closer you stand with the Bmorg, the less of a problem you have with the for-profit Commodification camps that the Bmorg approves.
The closer you stand with the Citizens of Black Rock City, well, I think the blog mentions something about that............
Camp THREAT: Dominating the porta potties 3 years running.
"If this is the best of all possible worlds, what are the others?"
- Voltaire, Candide

User avatar
unjonharley
Posts: 10280
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Elliot's naked bycycel repair
Location: Salem Or.

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by unjonharley » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:43 am

Just_Joe wrote:I'm trying to cut the BMORG some slack.
The Burning Man Project mission is to bring Burning Man to the world.
In attempt to do that, the founders probably decided that being in bed with venture capitalists, "movers and shakers", etc would be a good move.
Allocating tickets to the "more important" people may have been an experiment. If so, it failed and is now coming back to bite them on the ass.
What has emerged from the community is a feeling of betrayal and it needs to be addressed.
The community brings the Art, brings the volunteerism, brings the Theme Camps, brings the Mutant Vehicles. The community *is* Burning Man.
So, an open question to Burners?????

Are there burners that plan to bring less to Burning Man if turn-key continues as it is?????
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

User avatar
Lonesomebri
Posts: 2453
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:54 pm
Burning Since: 2018
Camp Name: CAMP THREAT
Location: NorCal

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Lonesomebri » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:51 am

unjonharley wrote:
Just_Joe wrote:I'm trying to cut the BMORG some slack.
The Burning Man Project mission is to bring Burning Man to the world.
In attempt to do that, the founders probably decided that being in bed with venture capitalists, "movers and shakers", etc would be a good move.
Allocating tickets to the "more important" people may have been an experiment. If so, it failed and is now coming back to bite them on the ass.
What has emerged from the community is a feeling of betrayal and it needs to be addressed.
The community brings the Art, brings the volunteerism, brings the Theme Camps, brings the Mutant Vehicles. The community *is* Burning Man.
So, an open question to Burners?????

Are there burners that plan to bring less to Burning Man if turn-key continues as it is?????
Absolutely, the Burners who don't get a ticket because the spread of for-profit camps has not been checked, and the tickets go to non-participants who contribute nothing.
As for me, if I manage to get a couple tickets away from the commercial interests, I plan to bring more, enough to support one free Sherpa.
Camp THREAT: Dominating the porta potties 3 years running.
"If this is the best of all possible worlds, what are the others?"
- Voltaire, Candide

Post Reply

Return to “Philosophical Center”