How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by unjonharley » Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:07 pm

Maybe a investigative reporter to do a thing on Fox
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Jackass » Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:12 pm

unjonharley wrote:Maybe a investigative reporter to do a thing on Fox

What are you mumbling about?

Still defending the for profit camps?

We don't need any investigative reporting from Fox, we prefer to handle things internally...
Last edited by Jackass on Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by unjonharley » Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:14 pm

Jackass wrote:
unjonharley wrote:Maybe a investigative reporter to do a thing on Fox

What are you mumbling about?

Still defending the for profit camps?
What is your fucking problem??
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Elderberry » Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:19 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:
rankly, I don't find what Marian did at Soho House that off-putting.

seriously?


or are you being "sarcastic" again.


it's so hard to tell john, your opinions change by the minute it seems.
Actually Simon, I was being serious here. It is easy to see the head of any company having a private stash of tickets or other product to gift. So, that one act doesn't bother me all that much.

That being said, I find the mass marketing of large block of tickets going to PnP camps very off-putting and wrong.

I've moved over to your camp. Reading Eric's post and finding out who that guy was that sold (signed off on) those tickets is really what pushed me over. That would make TWO closely associated BMORG officials culpable.

Makes me sort of sad.
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Jackass » Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:23 pm

unjonharley wrote:
Jackass wrote:
unjonharley wrote:Maybe a investigative reporter to do a thing on Fox

What are you mumbling about?

Still defending the for profit camps?
What is your fucking problem??
Just add your voice to the pile and be done with it.
You know u want to...
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by 5280MeV » Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:09 pm

[quote="vargaso"]the whole transition to a non-profit in order to "gift the event back to the community"[/quote]

I think it is sort of bullshit from the get-go given that the same people still own the brand as Decommodification, LLC and rent it to the non-profit. The brand is what has the real value. The burning man logo and name are what people look to to freely create their own event from an empty street layout and port-a-johns.

Selling off the event is like Coca Cola spinning off and selling you shares in their bottling facility, while keeping the trademark for themselves and renting it to your facility. You wouldn't really own a $183 billion dollar company, because it is the brand that has the value. In fact - they do actually have separate corporations that they contract with as bottling facilities, the largest US bottler is worth less than a billion.

In any case, no one should be impressed by 501(c)3 nonprofit tax-exempt status. Here is a 501(c)3 non-profit - the Fiesta Bowl:
640px-Fiesta_Bowl_2006_from_Flickr_81639095.jpg
They are all about scholarship, helping student athletes to achieve, and all that - you know - principles and such.
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by vargaso » Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:36 pm

5280MeV wrote:[quote="vargaso"]the whole transition to a non-profit in order to "gift the event back to the community"


I think it is sort of bullshit from the get-go given that the same people still own the brand as Decommodification, LLC and rent it to the non-profit. The brand is what has the real value. The burning man logo and name are what people look to to freely create their own event from an empty street layout and port-a-johns.

Selling off the event is like Coca Cola spinning off and selling you shares in their bottling facility, while keeping the trademark for themselves and renting it to your facility. You wouldn't really own a $183 billion dollar company, because it is the brand that has the value. In fact - they do actually have separate corporations that they contract with as bottling facilities, the largest US bottler is worth less than a billion.

In any case, no one should be impressed by 501(c)3 nonprofit tax-exempt status. Here is a 501(c)3 non-profit - the Fiesta Bowl:
640px-Fiesta_Bowl_2006_from_Flickr_81639095.jpg
They are all about scholarship, helping student athletes to achieve, and all that - you know - principles and such.[/quote]

I was OK with Decommodification LLC (the founders, basically) keeping ownership of the brand because for all their faults, they've been pretty good at protecting it through the years. And I was initially optimistic about the logistics of putting on the event being handed over to the Burning Man Project as a way of ensuring the event would persist outside of the involvement of the founders. But as soon as the Burning Man Project board members were announced, I was pretty skeptical based on the resumes of many of them. Looks like that skepticism was well-founded.

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by pink » Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:07 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:
especially when their every need is catered to so they never have to leave their comfort zone.


shazam
Agreed 100%. I've been trying to say this in the comments on the burning blog, but didn't manage to say it so succinctly.

So much about this stinks: paid abused labor, profit made off our self-financed creations, preferential treatment to camps that give nothing, and now tickets freely made available to those they deem 'important' to the event, which apparently just means 'probably has a lot of money'. Where's the pukey face emoticon when you need it?
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Jackass » Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:12 pm

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Sandstorm » Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:36 pm

vargaso wrote:The bullshit rhetoric about blowing these people's minds and transforming their business outlook is crap, especially when their every need is catered to so they never have to leave their comfort zone.
Your words echo my take on some of the recent comments made by some of the BM founders/BOD members. I knew that we were in trouble when those people started talking about how they want to use BM to educate affluent/influential people about the 10 Principles, that via said affluent people going to BM. The notion was that those people going to BM was meant to lead to them transforming the default world once they'd been to BRC. That's a hell of a way to spin the desire of some of the BM founders/BOD members to become movers and shakers.

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by VultureChow » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:23 pm

Wealthy people already go to fucking burning man. It is incredibly easy for them to go to burning man. Tickets at any price. Assistants to make reservations. Fly in. Have a driver bring you in. Whatever. Biggest damn RV you can find. None in the area? Have one delivered from freaking IOWA if need be. Bring your own employees. Personal Chef.

Some even go without all of those things. Maybe they bring a fancy RV and prepared meals. Maybe its the fanciest yak hair yurt that money can buy.

And some camp in a normal fucking tent with a monkey hut, an SUV and warm beer.

The idea that they NEED commodification camps to attend is insulting. It is easier for them to attend than for everyone else.

By claiming you need to make it even easier sends one, and only one, message: "The wealthy are more important than the rest of you."
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by gaminwench » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:27 pm

^^^ THIS! So much THIS!!!
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by vargaso » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:29 pm

VultureChow wrote:Wealthy people already go to fucking burning man. It is incredibly easy for them to go to burning man. Tickets at any price. Assistants to make reservations. Fly in. Have a driver bring you in. Whatever. Biggest damn RV you can find. None in the area? Have one delivered from freaking IOWA if need be. Bring your own employees. Personal Chef.

Some even go without all of those things. Maybe they bring a fancy RV and prepared meals. Maybe its the fanciest yak hair yurt that money can buy.

And some camp in a normal fucking tent with a monkey hut, an SUV and warm beer.

The idea that they NEED commodification camps to attend is insulting. It is easier for them to attend than for everyone else.

By claiming you need to make it even easier sends one, and only one, message: "The wealthy are more important than the rest of you."
There's a Fucking Burning Man!? That sounds fun!

But yeah, I completely agree. It's corporate welfare basically. Giving an advantage to the already advantaged. When instead, the BMORG should heed the words of Zorro the Gay Blade:

"We must help the helpless! Befriend the friendless! And defeat...the feetless!!"

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Sandstorm » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:36 pm

VultureChow: What makes me so disgusted about this situation is that up until now I've never focused on the personal wealth, or lack of it, of my fellow burners. I always knew that there were affluent people who attended Burning Man and who helped pay for the amazing art that we see in BRC. I always knew that in BRC I could unknowingly meet people who are wildly successful and/or wealthy back in defaultia. To me that reality was as normal as the idea that I was going to donate some my burn to a Theme Camp or an art project. Now? Now I know that some of the people who are meant to care for and protect BM are actually going out of their way to make it easier for affluent people to go to BM and in doing so those owners or employees of BM are taking tickets away from people who actually give a f*ck about the event and culture. I HATE THE FACT THAT VIA THEIR CORRUPTED MORALS SOME OF THE MEMBERS OF THE BM FOUNDERS AND BOD HAVE INJECTED CLASS WARFARE INTO BRC. THAT SUCKS. IT REALLY F*CKING SUCKS.

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by VultureChow » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:48 pm

My Burning Man is always a fucking Burning Man.

It's just stupid. And frankly, insulting to the rich.
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by VultureChow » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:58 pm

Sandstorm: Agree completely. And for an event that relies so heavily on artists and volunteers in critical functions, it's a very, very, dangerous situation for the Org. If that Marco Cochrane post is real (and I have no reason to believe otherwise) it should scare the shit out of them. We might just be the nattering masses, but pissing off the big art providers?! And his point is dead on. Why are camp producers allowed to profit off the Burning Man brand, but the artists aren't?

Ban for-profit camps. Done. Even Green Tortoise so there's no double standard. Now that there's an Org bus transport system, just set up some communal shade there for the bus users and be done with it.
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by vargaso » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:21 pm

VultureChow wrote:Sandstorm: Agree completely. And for an event that relies so heavily on artists and volunteers in critical functions, it's a very, very, dangerous situation for the Org. If that Marco Cochrane post is real (and I have no reason to believe otherwise) it should scare the shit out of them. We might just be the nattering masses, but pissing off the big art providers?! And his point is dead on. Why are camp producers allowed to profit off the Burning Man brand, but the artists aren't?

Ban for-profit camps. Done. Even Green Tortoise so there's no double standard. Now that there's an Org bus transport system, just set up some communal shade there for the bus users and be done with it.

What Marco Cochrane post?

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by VultureChow » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:22 pm

vargaso wrote:
VultureChow wrote:Sandstorm: Agree completely. And for an event that relies so heavily on artists and volunteers in critical functions, it's a very, very, dangerous situation for the Org. If that Marco Cochrane post is real (and I have no reason to believe otherwise) it should scare the shit out of them. We might just be the nattering masses, but pissing off the big art providers?! And his point is dead on. Why are camp producers allowed to profit off the Burning Man brand, but the artists aren't?

Ban for-profit camps. Done. Even Green Tortoise so there's no double standard. Now that there's an Org bus transport system, just set up some communal shade there for the bus users and be done with it.

What Marco Cochrane post?
viewtopic.php?f=372&p=1049835#p1049825
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:26 pm

yes, like monster beverage, when they were kicked off the damn playa.


if you bring your product, or your brand, or use sponsors and then push said product, even as a gift ( john and coco bliss, i am looking at you ) or try to leverage the burning man brand as part of a promotional campaign or album cover ( cough cough carl cox cough ) THAN YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG


it's a matter of intent.

do you intend to profit in any way at burning man besides KARMICALLY?

because if you do,

fuck you.


oh yeah, before i forget, FUCK YOU GYPSY DUB KITCHENS AND, OPULENT TEMPLE FOR HOSTING THEIR FOR-PROFIT CATERING GIG...yeah, go fuck yerselves.
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by H.G.Crosby » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:29 pm

you got it?


Bring it.


and GIVE IT AWAY, NO STRINGS ATTACHED.


is that so fucking HARD?
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Roberto Dobbisano » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:34 pm

i have a distinct feeling that there is more than one silicon valley company who has told the IRS that their Burning Man Expenses were a write off, and is listed as "Corporate Team Building Retreat"..






i'm going to find them too...
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Ano » Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:15 pm

Ask Playa Skool about tax write offs...

...and trying to get a handicap permit for an entire school bus.

...then again, Handicap permits were widely available for anyone in Caravancicle who wanted one, so...

I feel utterly rotten for the things I've said at the beginning of these threads.

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by GreyCoyote » Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:37 pm

Here is an idea, with thanks to SOTP for the spark.

Lets set up a faux commercial camp that "sells" a fake brand: "Nozz-O-La Cola". (Relabel any random bargain soda cans with a cheap label. Get hawkers to go out like peanut vendors at a ballgame. Branded shirts, uniforms, the whole schtick. Make it a hard-core sell. Setup right outside a PNP. Video all of it. Wait for one of the PNP'ers to bite.

Then we start the educational process. And we dare Larry to shut us down.

Commodification Cola. Official cola of Burningman.
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Roberto Dobbisano » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:16 pm

Ask Playa Skool about tax write offs...



i most certainly will...




well, SOMEONE will....
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by forty_eight » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:44 pm

the romans conquered greece, and despite the official policy of romanization, they ended up taking on cultural aspects of the greeks

maybe there's an analogy there or not

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by pink » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:19 pm

Roberto Dobbisano wrote:
Ask Playa Skool about tax write offs...



i most certainly will...




well, SOMEONE will....
I'm guessing all of the Brands write off their burn. Dancetronauts? White Ocean? They'd put it under advertising & promotion. And the sick thing is, I could easily defend that in an audit.
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Ano » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:01 pm

A little birdy on another site has told me about his experiences with Playa Skool in another year. I'm encouraging him to go to "press" with his story, but he signed an NDA and doesn't want to talk, for good reasons.

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:03 pm

I'm guessing all of the Brands write off their burn. Dancetronauts? White Ocean? They'd put it under advertising & promotion. And the sick thing is, I could easily defend that in an audit.


and therin lies the rub.


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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Sandstorm » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:06 pm

VultureChow wrote:Sandstorm: Agree completely. And for an event that relies so heavily on artists and volunteers in critical functions, it's a very, very, dangerous situation for the Org. If that Marco Cochrane post is real (and I have no reason to believe otherwise) it should scare the shit out of them. We might just be the nattering masses, but pissing off the big art providers?! And his point is dead on. Why are camp producers allowed to profit off the Burning Man brand, but the artists aren't?

Ban for-profit camps. Done. Even Green Tortoise so there's no double standard. Now that there's an Org bus transport system, just set up some communal shade there for the bus users and be done with it.
Earlier today a college age not-yet-a-burner posted in the FB BM group asking for input about what Burning Man means to them. He asked that question because he has a project that he needs to do for school. The project is a PSA. This is part of what I wrote to him. I include here because your remark about Larry & Co. pissing off the big art providers made me think of what I wrote to the not-yet-a-burner.

"2. In regards to you making a PSA for a BM related issue, it's likely going to be hard for you to get a true feel for why burners are bothered by certain things that relate to BM. I say that because even if there are many subcultures within BM each of those groups cares so strongly about the event becoming commercialized because it threatens the amazing diversity of people, mindsets and art that can be found at the event. (note: Many Burners tend to refer to the event being commercialized as the event being "commodified". That's because decommodification is one of the core principles of the event and culture). Being that you're not (yet) a burner it might be hard for your PSA to truly embody the richness of the event and the community. We're a profoundly diverse, complex and difficult group of people, some of whom openly scoff when our community is referred to as a community. We're not just people in wacky outfits and we're not drawn from a narrow segment of society. Some of us can act as Evangelical as all f*ck when it come to BM but we're the most motley and ungainly congregation of folks you're likely to come across."

The lesser things that Larry & Co. have been up to show that they are happily willing to violate the 10 Principles. There's already enough people in many corners of the community who feel as though Larry & Co. are using them in one way or another. The COMMODIFICATION CAMP CONTROVERSY is not only raising the ire of a broad group of burners but it's throwing gasoline on long simmering valid grudges that many burners have with Larry & Co and no matter how much the latter group tried to ignore or gloss over this situation IT WILL NOT GO AWAY.
GreyCoyote wrote:Here is an idea, with thanks to SOTP for the spark.

Lets set up a faux commercial camp that "sells" a fake brand: "Nozz-O-La Cola". (Relabel any random bargain soda cans with a cheap label. Get hawkers to go out like peanut vendors at a ballgame. Branded shirts, uniforms, the whole schtick. Make it a hard-core sell. Setup right outside a PNP. Video all of it. Wait for one of the PNP'ers to bite.

Then we start the educational process. And we dare Larry to shut us down.

Commodification Cola. Official cola of Burningman.
In a perfect world you and I should team up. Last month I had an idea that's a distant cousin to your idea; I called it JIM TANNANBAUM'S PLUG & PLAY PARADISE. It's a camp where the public space is shaped like a tiered wedding cake and each tier has it's own velvet rope policy. Each area is more exclusive than the ones before and below it. Perhaps the top level should be called CLASS WARFARE or FIRST CAMP. :)

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by DrYes » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:49 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:

it's a matter of intent.

do you intend to profit in any way at burning man besides KARMICALLY?

because if you do,

fuck you.
I like having people intending to make money from emptying and cleaning porta-potties, because it ensures it will be done and because there is simply no way a volunteer force would do the same kind of job. I like that selling ice and coffee generates money for Burning Man and makes it available to Burners. I don't drink coffee but Arctica is a great commercial service out there that would be difficult for a volunteer force to replicate and is of high value to Burners.

United Site Services brings their advertising to the playa all over the place on their vehicles, and has for years. Doesn't bother me.

It's a lot more complicated than "no money" or "money" which is why the decommodification principle is neither an absolute nor a formal rule, but a guideline.

I have no problem with Green Tortoise, for instance, which has been operating a PnP camp for many years, even charging people for rides to Gerlach and back I believe, with the org's blessing. Do you have an issue with that, seriously? They seem like friendly, respectable members of the Burner community to me. Never stayed with them, but have multiple friends, particularly from out of the country, who have stayed with them and they have pretty positive things to say.

I have a huge problem with camps that give nothing back getting any sort of special treatment (EE passes, placement, DGS tix, etc), which, to me, is the issue here. I don't care how much or little money people who attend BM have or what their internal camp arrangements are. I just want to see that they're participating and helping to acculturate the birgins among them.

Just one Burner's experience and opinion.

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