How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

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Simon of the Playa
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Simon of the Playa » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:40 am

nice straw man argument dr. yes.

united, the coffee, the ice...


bitch please, those are grandfathered in...you know damn well what i am talking about so dont try to muddy the waters with bullshit.
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by H.G.Crosby » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:42 am

pink wrote:
Roberto Dobbisano wrote:
Ask Playa Skool about tax write offs...



i most certainly will...




well, SOMEONE will....
I'm guessing all of the Brands write off their burn. Dancetronauts? White Ocean? They'd put it under advertising & promotion. And the sick thing is, I could easily defend that in an audit.

^THIS^
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Roberto Dobbisano » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:44 am

if you bring your product, or your brand, or use sponsors and then push said product, even as a gift ( john and coco bliss, i am looking at you ) or try to leverage the burning man brand as part of a promotional campaign or album cover ( cough cough carl cox cough ) THAN YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG


it's a matter of intent.

do you intend to profit in any way at burning man besides KARMICALLY?

because if you do,

fuck you.

^and THis^
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by vargaso » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:55 am

All credit to burners.me (http://burners.me/2014/11/06/billionairesrow/) for this, I thought people here should see it too:

“Private Jet? No Problem. VIP Packages for Superfans Are Big Business for Tours & Festivals":
http://www.billboard.com/biz/articles/n ... g-business

Key excerpt:

“Jennifer Breithaupt, senior vp entertainment marketing at Citi, which has worked with Billy Joel, John Legend and Katy Perry to create VIP opportunities for its cardholders, agrees, saying, “2014 is truly the year of experience for fans. There are so many unique packages offered.”

Due to the exclusive perks they provide and the premium prices they command — from $175 for a 5 Seconds of Summer VIP experience to a whopping $50,000 for a perch on the Burning Man festival’s Billionaires Row — these packages also have become an easy target for media seeking an “us vs. them” class warfare storyline. But architects of these offerings tell Billboard that critics are missing the point.

VIP packages, they say, are about business, not class — an opportunity to generate new revenue streams for the industry by attracting more demanding breeds of concertgoers, including “superfans,” as Breithaupt puts it, who’ve already seen the artist live “and are looking for an elevated experience.”

...

Precheur acknowledges that because he caters to “extremely rich individuals,” Billionaires Row has become “a very contentious thing, because Burning Man is supposed to be this super-hippie event” where basic tickets run from $200 to $500. But, he adds, the carping is shortsighted. Revenue from general-admission tickets pays for infrastructure, safety, traffic regulation and emergency medical expenses, but little else. “Most people miss that [Billionaires Row patrons] are the very people that fund the big art, the art cars, all the things that make Burning Man such a spectacular visual and artistic event,” says Precheur."


See, we’re just missing the point, apparently. I wonder if the vaunted IP lawyers on retainer will go after this as aggressively as they've gone after individuals who dared, say, to include photos they took at Burning Man in their professional portfolios. Just kidding, I don't wonder about it at all, I know they won't.

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by lucky420 » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:05 am

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Joeln » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:17 am

It just keeps looking worse.
I have decidedly mixed feelings about some aspects of this, but preferred access to tickets - barf!
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by FIGJAM » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:17 am

There is some talk of boycotting the burn.

I disagree.

I wonder what it would be like if we all still went, but only brought the basic necessities and the gifts for our compatriots.

Nothing for the burn in the way of art or attractions.

We would visit each other and make our own fun as usual and we could see what the billionaires actually bring, or would they just be wandering around on a blank canvas!!! :lol:
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:23 am

Marketing at its finest!
“Most people miss that [Billionaires Row patrons] are the very people that fund the big art, the art cars, all the things that make Burning Man such a spectacular visual and artistic event,” says Precheur."
Here is the twisted pitch:
The only reason art is at the event is because of billionaires. - False
Billionaires Row is where the art funders camp. - False
Precheur is out to make a buck, so lying is OK! And brand Billionaires Row.

In fact, the billionaires that fund art are discretely scattered and incognito.
What about almost all the art that is individually funded?

How many art cars have been bought by Billionaires Row, how many commissioned?
Private art cars are not a gift in any way to the event.


The sharks are circling BRC, and once they have dined it will be gone. Then they can move on to the regionals and other festivals. They are like buy out artists: buy it break it up, sell it and pocket the profit.
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by H.G.Crosby » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:25 am

the community is getting creative...

this off of "the facebook"
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by VultureChow » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:38 am

Boycott isn't the answer. Confrontation is. On playa confrontation.

They depend on our complacency out there. We bitch and moan here in the default world and when we go there, we're nice and loving and welcoming to everyone.

Why? Why do we have to welcome these people and places anymore? If the other principles are mere suggestions, so is Radical Inclusion. We don't welcome the thief and rapist. Why should we welcome these camps and people?

We're creative fucks. We can harass and confront in fun, non-abusive, non-destructive ways. Sherpa liberation armies. New signs for the commodification camps. Target First Camp with protests.
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by vargaso » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:42 am

H.G.Crosby wrote:the community is getting creative...

this off of "the facebook"
Yeah, saw that on the Burning Blog comments a few days ago, too. It's funny and clever.

All this talk of a boycott, as much as I'd like to think it's gonna happen, it just won't. There will be just as much art and people out there in 2015 as ever. It will look amazing. But to those who have been following this issue, it's gonna feel hollow. It already does to me. Normally, whenever I see or think of something that would be cool on the playa, I get a little jolt of adrenaline and jot it down in my notes as a possible project. I just saw one of those cool things this morning and that feeling wasn't there. I really think this issue is the nail in the coffin of the Burning Man period of my life. I know other milestones in the past have affected other people the same way, I guess it's just my turn. I think a lot of others' turns too. My son and his girlfriend went for the first time in 2014, they were duly blown away and are now totally hooked. It's their turn now, and I look forward to hearing about how amazing it is for them in 2015 and beyond.

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Elderberry » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:53 am

VultureChow wrote:
Why? Why do we have to welcome these people and places anymore? If the other principles are mere suggestions, so is Radical Inclusion. We don't welcome the thief and rapist. Why should we welcome these camps and people?
TurnKey camps might be considered thieves and rapists in and of themselves, considering what they seem to be doing to the event, no?
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by DrYes » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:59 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:nice straw man argument dr. yes.

united, the coffee, the ice...


bitch please, those are grandfathered in...you know damn well what i am talking about so dont try to muddy the waters with bullshit.
It's more that you're not very clear about what you object to. It doesn't sound like it's commodification per-se, but only certain kinds of commodification, and not even all camps that are for-profit, as you could have been yelling about Green Tortoise years ago, which is a for-profit business that literally sells tours to Burning Man, seems to get allocated blocks of tickets to resell (http://www.greentortoise.com/adventures ... stival.php), has for years, and gets placement by the BMORG despite their camp providing nothing to outsiders.

I smell more than a little class warfare when people throw around "billionaire's row" but Green Tortoise is just ignored.

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by VultureChow » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:15 pm

Elderberry wrote:
VultureChow wrote:
Why? Why do we have to welcome these people and places anymore? If the other principles are mere suggestions, so is Radical Inclusion. We don't welcome the thief and rapist. Why should we welcome these camps and people?
TurnKey camps might be considered thieves and rapists in and of themselves, considering what they seem to be doing to the event, no?
The thought occurred to me, but my post is about as pointed as I can get. I actually loathe confrontation.

But the point about on playa confrontation, i think, is important. The people who produce these camps and those who stay in them don't care about or pay any attention to our online fury. The uber-wealthy look on our bleatings as class envy. Then they expect to show up and everyone with be nice and welcoming and friendly. But if their clients show up on playa and are met clever, funny, pointed confrontation, that will have an affect.

The objection, of course, to any action or outrage seems to be, "Well you don't have to let them ruin your burn. No one else can ruin your burn but you." That strikes me as a selfish statement. I could very happily live in Barbie Death Village for the week and visit friends and neighbors and see art and never be directly affected by these camps. But someone is being hurt. The sherpa who is being abused. The burners who didn't get tickets because the employees did. The neighbors who stare at a wall of RVs in a now dead and non-interactive neighborhood. The community as a whole as the artists and creators are being edged out of a world they created.
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by VultureChow » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:16 pm

DrYes wrote:
Simon of the Playa wrote:nice straw man argument dr. yes.

united, the coffee, the ice...


bitch please, those are grandfathered in...you know damn well what i am talking about so dont try to muddy the waters with bullshit.
It's more that you're not very clear about what you object to. It doesn't sound like it's commodification per-se, but only certain kinds of commodification, and not even all camps that are for-profit, as you could have been yelling about Green Tortoise years ago, which is a for-profit business that literally sells tours to Burning Man, seems to get allocated blocks of tickets to resell (http://www.greentortoise.com/adventures ... stival.php), has for years, and gets placement by the BMORG despite their camp providing nothing to outsiders.

I smell more than a little class warfare when people throw around "billionaire's row" but Green Tortoise is just ignored.
For the record, I think Green Tortoise should be disbanded if only to get rid of a possible double standard. Though if they are providing crucial shuttle service, then that would be an important contribution.
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by vargaso » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:20 pm

DrYes wrote:
Simon of the Playa wrote:nice straw man argument dr. yes.

united, the coffee, the ice...


bitch please, those are grandfathered in...you know damn well what i am talking about so dont try to muddy the waters with bullshit.
It's more that you're not very clear about what you object to. It doesn't sound like it's commodification per-se, but only certain kinds of commodification, and not even all camps that are for-profit, as you could have been yelling about Green Tortoise years ago, which is a for-profit business that literally sells tours to Burning Man, seems to get allocated blocks of tickets to resell (http://www.greentortoise.com/adventures ... stival.php), has for years, and gets placement by the BMORG despite their camp providing nothing to outsiders.

I smell more than a little class warfare when people throw around "billionaire's row" but Green Tortoise is just ignored.
Yeah I'm not super thrilled about the Green Tortoise packages either, but up until recently, they were the only ones doing it. I suppose the company's hippie aura makes it somewhat more palatable. But you have to admit, it's reached something of a tipping point. When it was just Green Tortoise, it really didn't matter. There was no impact, positive or negative, to the event. Their camp looked like any other camp, only with LESS cars and RVs.

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Dr. Pyro » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:52 pm

VultureChow wrote: we are nice and loving and welcoming to everyone. .
We Kimo Sabe?

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by DrYes » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:15 pm

vargaso wrote:
Yeah I'm not super thrilled about the Green Tortoise packages either, but up until recently, they were the only ones doing it. I suppose the company's hippie aura makes it somewhat more palatable. But you have to admit, it's reached something of a tipping point. When it was just Green Tortoise, it really didn't matter. There was no impact, positive or negative, to the event. Their camp looked like any other camp, only with LESS cars and RVs.

Oh, it's definitely reached a tipping point, and I think GT should be treated like every other camp is too. If they want EE passes and placement, let them become a theme camp. I just object to what I sense to be some class warfare here.

The issue's got nothing to do, to my mind, with what the camp looks like, or whether there are rich people or not in the camp, how luxurious a camp is (Ashram Galactia anyone?) or even whether the camp is for-profit. I'd prefer no for-profit camps but it's an unenforceable rule outside of forcing camps to disclose audited finances, which is obviously never going to happen.

Take away the EE passes and placement, and this whole problem goes away to my mind because it's not actually possible to run a full-blown plug n' play camp without those. And if they actually do become theme camps then we all win, regardless of the profit status of the camp.

TL;DR: I believe the problem is not commodification, which is already rampant and has been for many many years. I believe the issue is giving special privileges to camps that give nothing back to the rest of Burning Man. Why should all the artists and folks who labor hard on big theme camps have to jump through hoops that plug n' play camps don't?

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by vargaso » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:19 pm

DrYes wrote:
vargaso wrote:
Yeah I'm not super thrilled about the Green Tortoise packages either, but up until recently, they were the only ones doing it. I suppose the company's hippie aura makes it somewhat more palatable. But you have to admit, it's reached something of a tipping point. When it was just Green Tortoise, it really didn't matter. There was no impact, positive or negative, to the event. Their camp looked like any other camp, only with LESS cars and RVs.

Oh, it's definitely reached a tipping point, and I think GT should be treated like every other camp is too. If they want EE passes and placement, let them become a theme camp. I just object to what I sense to be some class warfare here.

The issue's got nothing to do, to my mind, with what the camp looks like, or whether there are rich people or not in the camp, how luxurious a camp is (Ashram Galactia anyone?) or even whether the camp is for-profit. I'd prefer no for-profit camps but it's an unenforceable rule outside of forcing camps to disclose audited finances, which is obviously never going to happen.

Take away the EE passes and placement, and this whole problem goes away to my mind because it's not actually possible to run a full-blown plug n' play camp without those. And if they actually do become theme camps then we all win, regardless of the profit status of the camp.

TL;DR: I believe the problem is not commodification, which is already rampant and has been for many many years. I believe the issue is giving special privileges to camps that give nothing back to the rest of Burning Man. Why should all the artists and folks who labor hard on big theme camps have to jump through hoops that plug n' play camps don't?

Well yeah, I think that's what people have been saying here. So I agree, both with your post and all of my previous posts saying the same thing, although granted, I didn't include Green Tortoise in those.

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by DrYes » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:27 pm

vargaso wrote:
DrYes wrote:
Oh, it's definitely reached a tipping point, and I think GT should be treated like every other camp is too. If they want EE passes and placement, let them become a theme camp. I just object to what I sense to be some class warfare here.

The issue's got nothing to do, to my mind, with what the camp looks like, or whether there are rich people or not in the camp, how luxurious a camp is (Ashram Galactia anyone?) or even whether the camp is for-profit. I'd prefer no for-profit camps but it's an unenforceable rule outside of forcing camps to disclose audited finances, which is obviously never going to happen.

Take away the EE passes and placement, and this whole problem goes away to my mind because it's not actually possible to run a full-blown plug n' play camp without those. And if they actually do become theme camps then we all win, regardless of the profit status of the camp.

TL;DR: I believe the problem is not commodification, which is already rampant and has been for many many years. I believe the issue is giving special privileges to camps that give nothing back to the rest of Burning Man. Why should all the artists and folks who labor hard on big theme camps have to jump through hoops that plug n' play camps don't?

Well yeah, I think that's what people have been saying here. So I agree, both with your post and all of my previous posts saying the same thing, although granted, I didn't include Green Tortoise in those.
Some people have been saying that (and my feelings on GT have evolved pretty quickly...I didn't really have an issue with them previously either and realized recently that I was being hypocritical), but what I was responding to was Simon's statement from the last page: "do you intend to profit in any way at burning man besides KARMICALLY? because if you do, fuck you." I doubt he really means that it's that black and white an issue, and is speaking out of righteous passion, though the idea that someone might brings up the image to me of someone decrying all commodification on the playa as evil while handing over handing over cash money for coffee and ice while a United Services truck services the porta-potty the person just walked out of.

Plug n' play camps getting special treatment and commodification at BM are two separate topics in my mind. There's overlap, certainly, but they're very different issues. For instance, it'd be easy to run a camp like Green Tortoise or Caravansicle as something that doesn't make a profit, but would you object any less? I wouldn't, as what their P&L or balance statements look like isn't relevant to me. It's the special treatment they get while giving nothing back, and importantly at the expense of others who -are- giving something back, that I object to.

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Elderberry » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:53 pm

VultureChow wrote:Boycott isn't the answer. Confrontation is. On playa confrontation.

They depend on our complacency out there. We bitch and moan here in the default world and when we go there, we're nice and loving and welcoming to everyone.

Why? Why do we have to welcome these people and places anymore? If the other principles are mere suggestions, so is Radical Inclusion. We don't welcome the thief and rapist. Why should we welcome these camps and people?

We're creative fucks. We can harass and confront in fun, non-abusive, non-destructive ways. Sherpa liberation armies. New signs for the commodification camps. Target First Camp with protests.
It wouldn't be the first time there was conflict and confrontation on the playa: http://www.burningman.com/blackrockcity ... ylube.html
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by DrYes » Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:08 pm

Elderberry wrote:
VultureChow wrote:Boycott isn't the answer. Confrontation is. On playa confrontation.

They depend on our complacency out there. We bitch and moan here in the default world and when we go there, we're nice and loving and welcoming to everyone.

Why? Why do we have to welcome these people and places anymore? If the other principles are mere suggestions, so is Radical Inclusion. We don't welcome the thief and rapist. Why should we welcome these camps and people?

We're creative fucks. We can harass and confront in fun, non-abusive, non-destructive ways. Sherpa liberation armies. New signs for the commodification camps. Target First Camp with protests.
It wouldn't be the first time there was conflict and confrontation on the playa: http://www.burningman.com/blackrockcity ... ylube.html
You could run the confrontation in a way that has a wink to it too. Let the ones who are open to acculturation get a chance to see that other Burners are actually judging them negatively, but that we'd welcome helping these newcomers get more into the spirit of the playa. For instance, I love the idea of a Sherpa Liberation Army. That hits a perfect tone I think.

Some nice playful antics that don't actually hurt anyone but are basically absurdist forms of peer pressure would be great. I'd be willing to help liberate some oppressed sherpas!

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by vargaso » Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:14 pm

DrYes wrote:
Elderberry wrote:
VultureChow wrote:Boycott isn't the answer. Confrontation is. On playa confrontation.

They depend on our complacency out there. We bitch and moan here in the default world and when we go there, we're nice and loving and welcoming to everyone.

Why? Why do we have to welcome these people and places anymore? If the other principles are mere suggestions, so is Radical Inclusion. We don't welcome the thief and rapist. Why should we welcome these camps and people?

We're creative fucks. We can harass and confront in fun, non-abusive, non-destructive ways. Sherpa liberation armies. New signs for the commodification camps. Target First Camp with protests.
It wouldn't be the first time there was conflict and confrontation on the playa: http://www.burningman.com/blackrockcity ... ylube.html
You could run the confrontation in a way that has a wink to it too. Let the ones who are open to acculturation get a chance to see that other Burners are actually judging them negatively, but that we'd welcome helping these newcomers get more into the spirit of the playa. For instance, I love the idea of a Sherpa Liberation Army. That hits a perfect tone I think.

Some nice playful antics that don't actually hurt anyone but are basically absurdist forms of peer pressure would be great. I'd be willing to help liberate some oppressed sherpas!
Some good ideas here from awhile back:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=71918

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by pink » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:05 pm

IMHO, green Tortoise served a purpose before the Burner Bus existed. Now I don't think they should be allowed to operate as they have been either, really ever since the tickets sold out, they shouldn't be allocated a block at all. They're part of the slippery slope that ends with things like Caravansicle.
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Sandstorm » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:52 pm

pink wrote:IMHO, green Tortoise served a purpose before the Burner Bus existed. Now I don't think they should be allowed to operate as they have been either, really ever since the tickets sold out, they shouldn't be allocated a block at all. They're part of the slippery slope that ends with things like Caravansicle.
I totally understand the intellectual impetus for why people would want GT's "contract" with BM terminated via a P&P "clean slate" program. That said, do we really want to see a "good neighbor" / "good citizens" of BRC get f*cked because of the actions of actual COMMODIFICATION CAMPS? I for one don't.

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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Elderberry » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:13 pm

Sandstorm wrote:
pink wrote:IMHO, green Tortoise served a purpose before the Burner Bus existed. Now I don't think they should be allowed to operate as they have been either, really ever since the tickets sold out, they shouldn't be allocated a block at all. They're part of the slippery slope that ends with things like Caravansicle.
I totally understand the intellectual impetus for why people would want GT's "contract" with BM terminated via a P&P "clean slate" program. That said, do we really want to see a "good neighbor" / "good citizens" of BRC get f*cked because of the actions of actual COMMODIFICATION CAMPS? I for one don't.
I agree. I think GT has been going to Burning Man since before I started going. They camp in tents for Christ sakes. How Plug and Play is that? Plus I have never heard anything but good about them.
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When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

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elKay
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Burning Since: 2011
Location: chicagoish

Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by elKay » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:14 pm

Sandstorm wrote:
pink wrote:IMHO, green Tortoise served a purpose before the Burner Bus existed. Now I don't think they should be allowed to operate as they have been either, really ever since the tickets sold out, they shouldn't be allocated a block at all. They're part of the slippery slope that ends with things like Caravansicle.
I totally understand the intellectual impetus for why people would want GT's "contract" with BM terminated via a P&P "clean slate" program. That said, do we really want to see a "good neighbor" / "good citizens" of BRC get f*cked because of the actions of actual COMMODIFICATION CAMPS? I for one don't.
They could still camp. the only thing getting fucked would be the profit, and guaranteed tickets.

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Sandstorm
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Sandstorm » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:34 pm

elKay wrote:They could still camp. the only thing getting fucked would be the profit, and guaranteed tickets.
I'm not being a dick when I say this: you're being a purist on this matter. I guess that I'm leery of throwing the baby out with the bathwater and that's because that's how pogroms start.

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FIGJAM
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by FIGJAM » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:38 pm

Maybe I read it wrong, but Carivancicle had 120 campers at $17000 apiece.

It said he spent $2,000,000 on the camp.

$2,040,000 gross.

With the deep pockets of the perpetrator, it doesn't seem worthwhile to produce this camp.

I haven't changed my mind, but this seemed odd. :?
"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"

"If I can't find an answer, I'll create one!!!"

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Elderberry
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Re: How Turn Key Camps Get Placed

Post by Elderberry » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:54 pm

FIGJAM wrote:Maybe I read it wrong, but Carivancicle had 120 campers at $17000 apiece.

It said he spent $2,000,000 on the camp.

$2,040,000 gross.

With the deep pockets of the perpetrator, it doesn't seem worthwhile to produce this camp.

I haven't changed my mind, but this seemed odd. :?
You're right. It was his first attempt and he over promised and over delivered and underestimated everything. He won't make the same mistake next year. Assuming there is a next year for him.
JK
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When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

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