LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
User avatar
Sandstorm
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:37 am
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: TBD

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Sandstorm » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:27 pm

The legal restructuring of BM seems to contain elements of a pyramid scheme. The BMP is an atrociously ineffective non-profit. The BM BOD is loaded with people such as Jim Tananbaum, who think that's it's okay for there to be in BRC camps that charge camp members between $17K and $50K. In this supposedly new playing field for ComCamps we'll (perhaps) end up with luxury camps that sell a packaged experience to their clients and have an open bar for the public. To me that's not change or improvement; it's just lipstick on a pig. JT helped fund a ComCamp that was 100% antithetical to the ethos of the event, which scored RED on the MOOP Map and which abused some of it's employees. The price that JT has paid for his involvement in that camp? NADA. I call bullsh*t on that.

User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
Posts: 14878
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe
Location: Palm Springs
Contact:

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Elderberry » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:00 pm

Sandstorm wrote: JT helped fund a ComCamp that was 100% antithetical to the ethos of the event, which scored RED on the MOOP Map and which abused some of it's employees. The price that JT has paid for his involvement in that camp? NADA. I call bullsh*t on that.
Maybe everybody should now focus on trying to elicit an answer to that from Larry or the BOD now that most other issues have been somewhat addressed?
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

User avatar
digital
Posts: 608
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:38 pm
Burning Since: 2018
Camp Name: Middle'a-nowhere
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by digital » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:27 pm

Happy they finally responded.

Not 100% satisfied... but close to 90. I suppose that will do.

For me at least. Can't satisfy everyone.

d

User avatar
Sandstorm
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:37 am
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: TBD

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Sandstorm » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:12 am

Elderberry wrote:
Sandstorm wrote: JT helped fund a ComCamp that was 100% antithetical to the ethos of the event, which scored RED on the MOOP Map and which abused some of it's employees. The price that JT has paid for his involvement in that camp? NADA. I call bullsh*t on that.
Maybe everybody should now focus on trying to elicit an answer to that from Larry or the BOD now that most other issues have been somewhat addressed?
I'm not being obstinate when I say this: the only change that they made was that they got rid of the Donation Tickets. The end.

Yes, I 100% acknowledge that they took the time to look at many aspects of the ComCamp situation. But that's basically all they did. The BM BOD contains a member who helped to fund a camp that charged their members $17K per person and which abused some of their paid on playa staff and which ran a PRIVATE velvet rope camp and which scored RED on the MOOP Map. THE BORG's response to those facts was "Any BOD member who was part of that reality did so on their private time so it doesn't matter to us." Really?

The BOD is filled with some people who are obscenely wealthy and who were placed their by Larry and Marian. In "Spark: A Burning Man Story" Larry tried to spin the Ticket Lottery Fiasco as a way to shake up the community. Last year Marian was offering Donation TIckets to very affluent people at an upscale social mixer in LA, that at a time when the event was sold out and actual Burners were crying out in vain for BM tickets.

I could talk about the PMs that I've received describing abusive work environments at BM. I could talk about the fact that BRAF only donates 20 cents of every dollar that they raise. I could talk about how BM restricts playa artists from using photographs of their playa work. I could talk about how the legal restructuring of BM reeks of Pyramid schemes. Rather than go on about those things I'll simply say THE BORG's response to the ComCamp Controversy is "Trust us". Really? We're meant to trust the same people who created this mess? I'm not buying what they're selling.

I had a great run at Burning Man. It was a VITAL part of my life. It truly transformed my life. Separately, in good conscious I can't continue to support an event that's run by shady people who run the event in a far less holistic manner than that which the event is sold to the general public. I refuse to be a rube.

User avatar
Sandstorm
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:37 am
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: TBD

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Sandstorm » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:24 am

BTW, I was just posted this on FB at 4:14AM EST on 12/4/14:
"FYI, the links to the comments sections for both of the new ComCamp related posts on the BM blog are currently non-functioning. It seems that they've been turned off at some point this evening. They were certainly functioning earlier. I checked links to other comments sections on the blog and those links are working."

User avatar
alt12
Posts: 497
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:58 pm
Burning Since: 2004
Location: San Francisco

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by alt12 » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:20 am

Necessary but insufficient. That is my response to the announcement. I'm glad they responded in some way. It does prove that the org is at least somewhat responsive to community complaints.

What they got right:
1) Got rid of donation tickets to The Burning Man Project (BMP)

2) Put the commercial/commodification camps on an even playing field instead of giving special treatment.

What they missed:

1) Did not really address the Jim Tannenbaum situation and his involvement in Caravansicle. They did in a very general way with regards to all board members, but just saying board members activities at the Burning Man event have nothing to do with their role on the board of directors of BMP is kind of ridiculous.

2)They really need to more explicitly opposed to Commodification camps. There language is always so soft, tepid and fluffy on this matter. It shouldn't be "discouraged" it should be "banned." The stated policy should be very clearly that any camp of this nature is explicitly forbidden. Then let placement sort through which is for real and which is not. My suspicion is that Placement will probably be able to tell which are which, but will still place them in 2015, but I guess we'll see.

3) Transparency, Transparency, Transparency. At the end of the day this has always been BMORGs problem. As a privately owned entity that's fine. But as a 5031c representing a community, they need to be more forthcoming with everything: expenses, how many tickets were sold in each categeory,, gross funding from the event, gross funding at the BMP, headcount. They still want to keep everything secret which just don't jive with a non-profit.


All in all, it is something. Quite frankly, the controversy I think will discourage some of these camps and since the org is now removing their easy access policy, that should help. I guess we'll see in 2015.

Ano
Posts: 545
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:04 pm
Burning Since: 2011
Camp Name: Everlasting Fuck-you's

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Ano » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:44 am

vargaso wrote:I'm not exactly sold on the efficacy of the Burning Man Project as of yet. Do they have any concrete goals other than the very vague "spreading Burning Man culture"? Don't the regionals do a pretty good job of that for free, mostly?
See, this is the one part that really sticks out to me, and it has also caused some serious ire within my own regional community from some very hard workers.

I'm good friends with a guy who may or may not have been an RC for our region, and he may or may not have been THE guy to get the entire ball rolling with the community uniting in our region. He could possibly be directly responsible for our decompression, our precompression, and our equinox, among many other big things that have come to grow from my region. He attended the GLC, he helped get a non-profit 501(c)3 going, he personally funded and kickstarted some major things in my region. He's a good guy and a hard worker.

At the GLC and in other dealings with the BMORG, he was told, in very clear words, that the Burnig Man movement was changing the world, with a lot of examples. He was also told that this was due to the efforts of the regions all stepping up their game and putting both feet on the ground running. He was also told that, in order to continue working in the way they were all working, they would need a couple of things. They would need -

1. Complete transparancy regarding all aspects of how their organizations are run. (Monetized statements, open board, open everything.)
2. Absolute dedication to pure volunteerism - nobody should be getting paid. (Read: Nobody can make any money off of all the free work they are doing.)
3. Must adhere to strict guidelines regarding branding and interaction with various local departments (IE: words like Decompression are closely monitored for the kind of event they represent. Can't call a mixer at a bar a Decom, it needs to look as close as it can to Burning Man, in an event space)

There were more, but these are the ones that really stabbed him in the side upon reading the blogs last night.

Funnily enough, it appears that the BMP not only violates most of these guidelines. They are NOT transparent regarding what they are doing, or how they are run. Most people in the BMP appear to be getting paid and compensated in some way, which flies in the face of sticking with pure volunteerism. And, lets not even begin to talk about how JT's private fun-camp for douchebags advertised themselves using words like "Burning Man" over and over and over again and were clearly in violation of the principals of at least decommodification radical inclusion, two of what I feel are very important things that make the whole experience what it is.

Essentially, the BMP is doing the work the regions were already doing for free, but instead they are bending rules and getting paid for it. And the regions still have to adhere to amazingly strict guidelines in order to continue operating. There was a major kerfluffle with one of our events because we could not do gift bars in the event space, and thus had to have a paid bar in order to have alcohol at the event, even for it to be BYOB. This caused a massive ripple all the way up and down the org, and we almost lost the right to call it (apparently trademarked name here), which was utter BULLSHIT.

Out of all the things that were out-of-touch, including giving JT a pass for his actions, the fact that the "We are banning safari camps!" statement is the SAME THING they said in 2012 in the wake of that year's PNP controversy, and that they really gloss over a lot of observed actions that some of these camps did (such as paid sherpas, such as the fact that these camps seemed to have a lot of handicapped golf carts, the fact that they were allowed to set up early as a vendor and tear down amazingly late, days after the rest of us plebians left), I feel that the fact that they are paying themselves to do work many of us already do is amazingly insulting.

They even skipped addressing some important things. They did NOT address how the Burning Man folks have a "cultural liason" position held by many high-ranking volunteers that was based on acculturating the attendees of the PnP camps (Source for this is somewhat shaky, but a big poster over on /r/burningman who has demonstrated having connections and being a well-connected volunteer talked briefly about his time being in this position before sherpagate really spun out of control.) They glossed over Sherpas entirely.

I started squarely on one side in this whole PnP debacle. I had a long extended conversation with a man in a named PnP camp who was an organizer, and the things he said honestly placated my fears at the time. It sounded like the best possible medium for what was already happening. I was actually standing on the side of "necessary evil" when it came to Caravancicle. But now, I don't know where I stand. I still love this event, and I still want to put my very best effort forward to making it a better place, but I feel like the message is clear here. Burning Man is changing, and not in a positive way. This isn't a social movement, this isn't a vehicle for change, this isn't even really a transformational party. It's a business, it's a festival, it's a dirty dust rave with cool art and big weird vehicles where we can't make money, advertise, or even try to open a mutually beneficial relationship with someone/something, unless I am a member of the BMP, then all bets are off and I can charge up to $50k to sell an arts festival that I didn't do jack shit to help create. I don't know, something about that stings for some reason.

User avatar
zorro sings
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:56 am
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: Hostel
Location: 8:30 and C

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by zorro sings » Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:30 am

Lonesomebri wrote:My favorite part is where another straw man is created and dragged out by the Borg, all the while with them acting as if that is the issue.

Larry-
This issue of equality almost amounts to a straw man.
Time changes everything.

Well said.I more or less tuned out after reading that part of the message.
Be careful. You can spend all your money in there..............................Oriental Visitor

User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
Posts: 16923
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:54 pm
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Brainy Bar
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by trilobyte » Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:46 am

I think the way to go after the safari/concierge camps is to do it proactively. Instead of waiting until someone complains post-event and then screaming and demanding that action somehow be taken retroactively based on anecdotal evidence... keep an eye out for these kinds of operations leading up to the event, and send a note to [email protected] and/or [email protected].

As for regional group restrictions and guidelines, I think that's par for the course for any kind of franchise operation - and to me regional groups are just that, regional franchise operations. I think that stuff is also spelled out in the agreements when a regional group is created. If a person (or a group of people) are going to start up a regional franchise of some company or organization and use their IP and tap into that userbase/community, it stands to reason that the company or organization would want stuff to happen a certain way. I'm sorry that your friend felt jilted or had less than great experiences, though.

In case it's not clear, this is just me speaking personally. I'm looking forward to hearing more oabout what's happening with Burning Man Project. I don't think it's a case of not being transparent as much as it's a case of BMP/BMan still figuring out how that's going to work. I think certain stuff like HR or legal stuff is easy to say belongs with the parent organization, but what about all the other different pieces of the puzzle? Since the parent organization is a non-profit you might think it makes sense to move as much to that as possible, but I imagine there are certain rules and considerations (what percentage of the work is done for the for-profit business vs. the whole, etc). I've got friends in the organization and know that those involved have been working long and hard on all that stuff, I'd like to see some kind of update even if some of it's still preliminary.

User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
Posts: 14878
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe
Location: Palm Springs
Contact:

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Elderberry » Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:56 am

Lonesomebri wrote:My favorite part is where another straw man is created and dragged out by the Borg, all the while with them acting as if that is the issue.

Larry-
This issue of equality almost amounts to a straw man.
Time changes everything.
Oh please. You should know that "radical equality" is not one of the ten principles.
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

User avatar
Lonesomebri
Posts: 2636
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:54 pm
Burning Since: 2021
Camp Name: CAMP THREAT
Location: NorCal

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Lonesomebri » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:21 pm

Elderberry wrote:
Lonesomebri wrote:My favorite part is where another straw man is created and dragged out by the Borg, all the while with them acting as if that is the issue.

Larry-
This issue of equality almost amounts to a straw man.
Time changes everything.
Oh please. You should know that "radical equality" is not one of the ten principles.
We all know that, and no one is bitching about equality, you know that, I know that, we all know that. Maybe you should re-read, or have someone with the ability, read to you the threads on Plug n Plays. Was Sandstorms letter about equality? Any of the suggestions of code of practices put out here on eplaya complain about un-equality? Trotting out the CLAIM that this issue is about equality is a straw man created by Larry, and Larry and Elderberry are the only ones trotting out that straw man. Do you understand now? Get back to carry the bucket for the Borg.......

What got Larry to respond, the Borg to react and do anything about this, is constant outside-the-Borg pressure, complaints and scrutiny. If you like the positive response and want the Borg to continue reacting to community concerns, it was the voice of the community that will do that also. Good job.
Camp THREAT: Dominating the porta potties 4 years running.
"If this is the best of all possible worlds, what are the others?"
- Voltaire, Candide

User avatar
Sandstorm
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:37 am
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: TBD

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Sandstorm » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:42 pm

Lonesomebri wrote:...What got Larry to respond, the Borg to react and do anything about this, is constant outside-the-Borg pressure, complaints and scrutiny. If you like the positive response and want the Borg to continue reacting to community concerns, it was the voice of the community that will do that also. Good job.
Well said.

User avatar
Jovankat
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:11 am
Burning Since: 2013
Camp Name: Methuselah's Children
Location: Oakland or Australia

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Jovankat » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:29 pm

Lonesomebri wrote: Was Sandstorms letter about equality? Any of the suggestions of code of practices put out here on eplaya complain about un-equality? Trotting out the CLAIM that this issue is about equality is a straw man created by Larry, and Larry and Elderberry are the only ones trotting out that straw man. Do you understand now?

I don't think that's actually fair. There has been a fair amount of talk about monetary inequality and gentrification, a lot of it from Simon. There was also that whole thread BBadger started addressing that (where has he gone by the way?)

Personally I think Simon has made some good points about the parallel to gentrification in San Francisco and society at large but I also don't think he's been arguing that all the rich people who go to burning man are the problem.

There seems to be a fair amount of disagreement from both sides of the PnP/turnkey issue on how related to inequality the whole thing is.

User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
Posts: 14878
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe
Location: Palm Springs
Contact:

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Elderberry » Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:02 pm

Larry's my bestie
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

User avatar
The Rod
Posts: 947
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:03 pm
Burning Since: 2010
Camp Name: THREAT
Location: USA

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by The Rod » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:51 pm

This is complicated.

I think that ultimately the issues of inequality and PNP controversy are, at their cores, the same issue...

However I think it is fair to call out a strawman when they're seen, and taking this topic of discussion (plug and play camps) and tying it up in a conversation about the systemic inequality and corruption of our society is, making the issue about something else. A strawman.

No one here wants to see the Borg address the sickness of a capitalized society living on a plundered planet. It's kind of cool that people are talking about it. But this conversation can be and could have been much, much simpler if it was just about plug and play camps and how they relate to the event and it's principles.

Burning Man is/was a special place like no other.

Exclusivity, commodification, wastefulness, civic and communal apathy are symptoms of capitalism. Any way you slice it capitalism is a system of economic exchange based on scarcity and inequality. Commodified, quantified, packaged, sold, bought and thrown away.

Part of what makes Burning Man so special was that it wasn't a place where life wasn't a bought and paid for experience. It wasn't a place where we are quantified by what we're able to buy and the packages we can afford. Now it is. There's no denying it. The Borg won't deny it.

But they're there. Not on a large scale, yet. I can't say that the presence of these particular douchebags affected me at all on playa this year. Or ever. BUT, they're there. In a place they shouldn't be. And when you find snakes in the basement you don't wait till they're slithering in bed with you before bringing in the mongooses.

They said that now the private bars had to be open to the public. They didn't address the whole 'sherpa' aspect of the scandal named Sherpagate, naturally. JT will never have to publicly own his lack of integrity with the community he has been charged with shepherding.

Whatever.

I was planning on taking 2015 off anyways.

User avatar
Simon of the Playa
Posts: 20687
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins
Location: BRC, Nevada.

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Simon of the Playa » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:26 am

My conclusion is that Burning Man broke Caravansicle. I might add that the individual who profited from Caravansicle will not be allowed back into Burning Man.
danger ranger, yesterday.
Frida Be You & Me

User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
Posts: 14878
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe
Location: Palm Springs
Contact:

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Elderberry » Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:45 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:
My conclusion is that Burning Man broke Caravansicle. I might add that the individual who profited from Caravansicle will not be allowed back into Burning Man.
danger ranger, yesterday.
I would tend to believe danger ranger. However, unless I'm misunderstanding something, wasn't that individual Tanenbaum? Is DR saying JT, a member of BM BOD, will not be allowed back into burning man? :shock:

Where was this quote taken from? Blog? Personal correspondence? Might there be a link to the entire article for context?
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

User avatar
Simon of the Playa
Posts: 20687
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins
Location: BRC, Nevada.

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Simon of the Playa » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:14 am

BURNING MAN BROKE CARAVANSICLE

Burning Man is the ultimate testing ground. Your best design for shelter will be tested by the playa and the playa almost always wins. If you come to your first burn as a couple, don't count on leaving with the same person. Whatever psychological baggage you bring to the event will be destroyed within a few days. Even getting tickets to the event can be fraught with drama and intrigue. However elaborate, your plans for a giant camp involving scores of other burners will be tested to the limit by the time the Man burns. The lifetime of a theme camp and the personal relationships of those involved may be one year or several, beyond which it may break apart and/or mutate into something else. In addition to impact from the environment, the cohesion and longevity of large camps can be affected by external pressures, such as public outrage over plug and play camps. There is a long history of crash and burn at Burning Man.

This year, there were apparently several camps which approached the point of meltdown as indicated by the resultant moop left on playa, which has sparked much a broader debate about the nature and character of large, well-funded "plug & play" luxury camps at Burning Man. The post-burn forensics of this internet-fuled drama of rumors on top of rumors has been challenging and time consuming. The first rule of Rangers is do nothing because what you think you see may not be what is actually occurring. And sometimes there are broader implications to a note posted on a bulletin board. We are now at a point where there is enough information to answer some of the questions that have arisen. Larry, always the consummate lucubrationist, has posted to the Burning Man blog about this issue. I have also conducted my own personal investigation into this matter and have come up with answers that may be more specific than some of those presented thus far.

My conclusion is that Burning Man broke Caravansicle. I might add that the individual who profited from Caravansicle will not be allowed back into Burning Man.

When I was finally able to confront Mr T. face-to-face, my first words to him were; "You really stepped in some shit." I believe that he truly regrets the wreckage in the wake of his camp. Mr T. started out with the best of intentions. Caravansicle was not intended to be commercial in nature. His goal was to fund and produce a large camp for friends and associates, much like the camps that he had done in the two previous years. But this year it was going to be grander and larger. His first mistake was to hire a professional camp producer from the commercial EDM world with no Burning Man experience. This is what brought in the sherpas and wristbands. His second mistake was having a bar so big and so public that it ran out of liquor. Nothing is worse than a half-drunk lynch mob. And I'm sure that the professional camp producer was surprised to discover no trash dumpsters at Burning Man. None-the-less, the camp producer took the money and ran.

The truth is that Mr T. lost tens of thousands of dollars on this failed project. That is not to say that the captain does not carry ultimate responsibility for his ship. While he has been quite capable of amassing a fortune in the world of venture capital, it does call into question if he is ready and able to help navigate the Burning Man ship. Then again, there is nothing like failure to add to ones experience. I think that having an 18-person board of directors is good in that it allows a larger pool to maintain overall management and guidance, which is certainly an improvement over the past when there were only 6 board members. I don't know what the outcome of all this be, but the rules of conduct for board members are spelled out in this document:
http://z9hbb3mwou383x1930ve0ugl.wpengin ... dn.com/…/B

Gypsy Flower Power was another failed camp this year. It was doomed from the start because it was a scam operated by Jonathan Nut*** (jonnymoonshine12), a serial ripoff artist with a history of doing this at multiple events. This year, he bilked a bunch of first-time europeans by charging them for tickets, food and accommodations, which he never delivered. He also had no plan for (or intention to) clean-up after the event.

Bmorg is instituting new procedures/policies next year, which will bring all non-infrastructure plug-and-play camps under the theme camp registration process and hold them to the same standards.

Things on the internet are not always what they claim to be. The troll behind burners.me is a lone individual who made $50 million in the tech field. "Steve" (King"Z") owns several expensive homes in Australia, Europe & California. His private plane flies him into Burning Man each year where his big RV is waiting for him. He has no problem with hiring professional trolls like O. B. to mount sock puppet attacks. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

The transition of Burning Man from tontine to non-profit organization has taken more that six years. Thru all of this, no one in the organization is getting rich off of Burning Man. That will become apparent after the numbers for the non-profit are published. It's been a very complex process with many moving pieces, some of them not quite in place. The sole purpose of Decommodification LLC is to protect the Burning Man name and I've programmed it to automatically dissolve after its mission is completed. My primary responsibility is to the community of Burning Man and that has not wavered.

In the early days, Burning Man was like a lemur; small, agile, hiding from the authorities way out in the deep playa. Our nest was a Temporary Autonomous Zone. Today Burning Man is an eight hundred thousand ton gorilla with many mouths to feed. It's a network of departments and people, sometimes with competing interests. It's still evolving. It has lost much of its agility, but there are some advantages to size. We are now having an impact on the world at large and we have the power to change that world for the better.

Danger Ranger.


(note, i edited out real names to keep with the TOS)
Frida Be You & Me

User avatar
DrYes
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:22 pm
Burning Since: 2010
Location: Bay Area
Contact:

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by DrYes » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:52 am

The attempt to smear the owners of Burners.me is gross, irrelevant, and typical of administrations that dislike it when the media digs too deeply.

User avatar
Simon of the Playa
Posts: 20687
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins
Location: BRC, Nevada.

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Simon of the Playa » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:57 am

.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Frida Be You & Me


User avatar
Simon of the Playa
Posts: 20687
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins
Location: BRC, Nevada.

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Simon of the Playa » Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:14 am

Image
Frida Be You & Me

User avatar
some seeing eye
Posts: 3760
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:06 pm
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: Woo
Location: The Oregon

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:14 am

I know slightly some of the attendees at the infamous camp. It is incorrect to multiply the camp size by $17K to compute revenues. In fact it looks a lot like many camps, a few wealthy people supporting the budget within a large number of friends with a general admission ticket. Let me also say that the mistresses of merryment are not sex workers, though I believe sex work among and between adults should be legal and none of the business of the government.
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

User avatar
Simon of the Playa
Posts: 20687
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins
Location: BRC, Nevada.

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Simon of the Playa » Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:28 am

.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Frida Be You & Me

User avatar
vargaso
Posts: 785
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:26 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Suburbanoya
Location: Lincoln, CA

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by vargaso » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:45 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:BURNING MAN BROKE CARAVANSICLE

Burning Man is the ultimate testing ground. Your best design for shelter....

Danger Ranger.

(note, i edited out real names to keep with the TOS)
Simon, where is this from? It's interesting to be sure, especially if it's actually from Danger Ranger. It's funny he slams burners.me, though. While I don't agree with everything he writes, the dude has been dead on correct about every aspect of the commodification camp issue. Does anyone here think the policy changes we're seeing or the tepid mea culpas from the BMORG would have occurred without the persistence of people like burnersxxx from burners.me? And it's funny that Danger Ranger brings up burnersxxx's wealth, continuing the trend of BMORG members conflating the issue between wealthy burners and commodification camps. As for JT, we'll see.

UPDATE: Oh OK, it's from his Facebook page, where doxxing is indeed a violation of the TOS. This really lessens my opinion of DR, I always saw him as the ultimate jester/prankster, always willing to speak truth to power. On the commodification camp issue, burners.me has been doing just that. To dox him and mention his wealth is really lame.

User avatar
vargaso
Posts: 785
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:26 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Suburbanoya
Location: Lincoln, CA

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by vargaso » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:08 pm

This is the best response to this whole debacle I've seen, and perfectly articulates how I feel about it much better than I've been able to do. From a comment on Larry's post on the Burning Blog:

http://blog.burningman.com/2014/12/news ... nt-1178825
Thanks for responding responsively Larry. As you seek to realign TTITD with the Principals, please consider the following.

Spreading the culture is not a justification for any action of Burning Man Project administration. In fact, it can be argued, according to Principle, that such is not even a valid role for BMorg. That job belongs to Burners. It is somewhat obvious today that BMorg’s efforts to spread the culture has resulted in attendance by the unprincipled. Consider that the culture should spread in spite of your efforts.

’97 was a seminal year. The third phase of the project. It was the year that the women took over the organization. The event would be nurtured for many years following. I can’t seem to find a detailed listing of the current 19 or so board members. I have to believe that the “let’s see what we can get away with” direction is male driven. What is the balance? Please correct this if necessary.

Vigorous defense of the use the words “Burning Man” was once welcomed as a shield against appropriation by those who sought the attention of the vicarious. It now takes on the pallor of a brand. I think we can thank the current board for that. Burning Man is a volunteer organization. The growth has been sustained by the blood, sweat, tears and dollars of the participants. This investment has consistently been ignored.

Your example of the ticket crisis of 2012 underscores the fact that BMorg fails to acknowledge that it is the participants, not BMorg, that create the experience. It was unbelievable. Once again I ask you to consider the make up of the board. The board is obviously populated by those who were not directly involved in creating experience, gifting.

Above all, Burning Man is not a brand but a concept. Your retreat into non-profit status is quite timely. I hope it will shield the Project from the righteous challenge of those who would want to be compensated for the exploitation of their gifts.

The future for myself and others is regional. The playa today has a disproportionate population of predators, narcissists and spectators. I attribute this to a conscious desire to spread the culture rather than let the like minded find their own way home.

Ano
Posts: 545
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:04 pm
Burning Since: 2011
Camp Name: Everlasting Fuck-you's

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Ano » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:09 pm

I don't know if I'd consider what M2 is doing here as "doxxing," necessarily. Anyone who spent more than half an hour looking at burners.me could easily trace it to "burnersme guy name," as his profile picture and publically viewable username/email address can be thrown into Google and you can quickly see that "burnersme guy name" and "burnersxxx" line up perfectly. Couple that with, oh, scrolling through old articles where he names/links himself in various ways, and it's really not new news that "burnersme guy name," the rich man who has made a lot of money through tech work, runs burners.me. I personally feel like he's just getting a little dose of his own treatment.

I do really like what burners.me aims to do, but sometimes he goes off the deep end comparing Burning Man to neo-socialist pagan rituals and witchcraft. He calls out people in somewhat demonizing ways sometimes, as well. I think he has to know he had it coming eventually, with the way he trashes names and digs deep into things. And I know for a fact that he has thrown out completely non-factual things on some subjects and called them 100% true verified by his own sources, so... On one hand, sucks for him to get called out publically, on the other hand, he gladly calls out others publically, and he isn't as invisible as he thinks.

I wish the tone and style of Danger Ranger's post were what the Burning Blog posts were. Danger Ranger actually skipped most of the BS and talked about the facts and presented some previously unknown information. I can appreciate that. It's not everything that was wanted, it's not everything that was needed, but it was far clearer and more honest than anything else that has come from official channels so far.

edit: im avoiding using personal names as per TOS here. Please let me know if I need to change things or if I broke a rule.

User avatar
The Rod
Posts: 947
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:03 pm
Burning Since: 2010
Camp Name: THREAT
Location: USA

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by The Rod » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:14 pm

Danger Ranger wrote:When I was finally able to confront Mr T. face-to-face, my first words to him were; "You really stepped in some shit." I believe that he truly regrets the wreckage in the wake of his camp. Mr T. started out with the best of intentions.
I'm getting tired of hearing shills defend the actions of a hypocritical corporation. If this asshole truly regrets the wreckage of his camp then he can man the fuck up and OWN IT to the community.

Just my two cents.
DrYes wrote:The attempt to smear the owners of Burners.me is gross, irrelevant, and typical of administrations that dislike it when the media digs too deeply.
Ditto.

Edit: In all fairness I think that Burners.me guy isn't invisible or invincible, he's definitely a muck-raking rabble rouser. So yeah its fair for the opposition to rake some muck.
Lonesomebri wrote: What got Larry to respond, the Borg to react and do anything about this, is constant outside-the-Borg pressure, complaints and scrutiny. If you like the positive response and want the Borg to continue reacting to community concerns, it was the voice of the community that will do that also. Good job.
And Burners.me was a pretty loud voice in all this, cause he dug deep, and I don't think the administration liked it much...

User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
Posts: 14878
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe
Location: Palm Springs
Contact:

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Elderberry » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:32 pm

Thanks Simon. That was the most direct answer/explanation I've read to date.

The link to the BOD code of conduct is broken.

It seems that burningmanproject.org is just redirecting to the main burningman.org site. I was able to find a list of board members there, but nothing else. (Tanenbaum is still listed as a board member)

Also, in rereading danger rangers post again, I'm hoping that when he said that the person responsible won't be coming back, that he wasn't referring to the person/company Tanenbaum hired.
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

User avatar
Sic Pup
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:51 am
Location: Location, Location

Re: LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

Post by Sic Pup » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:12 pm

A-RockLeFrench wrote: I was planning on taking 2015 off anyways.
So was I. now I'm looking forward to some hi jinx and good-natured BM-style education with inclusion being the endgame.

I've been on K for my last three burns and take no offense at the term "k-hole" albeit for entirely different reasons... he he....my camp will be more Shrug and Prey in 2015.

Don't ask what PnP's can do to you. Ask instead, what you can do for the PnPs.
"Enjoy every sandwich" - W. Zevon

Post Reply

Return to “Philosophical Center”