Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
User avatar
Roundabout
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:41 pm
Burning Since: 2013
Camp Name: Playa Choir
Location: Ridgway, CO

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by Roundabout » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:30 pm

pink wrote:The earlier ways of donating to BWB, BR Solar & the Arts Foundation weren't flat out pleas for cash, checks & stock, and we know what these orgs do/have done. I'm think they blew it by forming this vague entity and folded these three into it.
Pink,
I may be wrong, but I think BWB and BR Solar remain wholly separate entities. But you are right, it is much clearer what one is giving his $ to when donating to BWB or BR Solar.
Every aspect of life is education. Even if you don't immediately grasp the lesson. robbidobbs

Ano
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:04 pm
Burning Since: 2011
Camp Name: Everlasting Fuck-you's

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by Ano » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:27 am

I'm personally not so sure that Burning Man needs to be spread to the greater world... I think it's pretty well-known as it is.

However, I do know that it is incredibly expensive to install art in a public space in a city. I could see a chunk of money going that way... it's much harder to get art to the Playa than to a city, but it's much harder to maintain art in a city than on the Playa... in my opinion, of course.

I like to hope that the powers that be are doing a good thing, and while I do agree that the latest JRS was a tad tone-deaf to some parts of the community at the moment, I also think that the BMP can do good things for the world in the form of promoting art and art projects in cities... I know that I smile every time I see art in SF that has been to the playa before, and I do feel like it would be very cool to see more permanent or temporary art structures popping up in cities across the globe. I did not personally donate to the BMP, but time will tell if it is a good investment.

User avatar
alt12
Posts: 494
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:58 pm
Burning Since: 2004
Location: San Francisco

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by alt12 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:12 am

GreyCoyote wrote:
alt12 wrote:I'm not giving them any but I'm not offended that they asked.
I don't think I'm being unreasonable or "too sensitive" here.

When someone asks me for money, I want to know what they spend it on. It's a natural reaction by anyone with a business background. This reaction isn't an emotional one and it isn't driven by "SherpaGate" or anything else. It's about ME. It's MY MONEY. And I'm happy to send it to ethical, transparent groups who can demonstrate they do great things with it besides line their own pockets. Unfortunately, and based solely upon the federal filings (which are not current BTW), the plain facts speak for themselves. The BMORGs own accounting says they are spending very little on "spreading the word of Larry". Read the filings for yourself.

So yeah. Pardon me if I do due diligence. The 990's speak for themselves. I didn't file them. The BMORG did.

This all boils down to a personal decision. If you want to fund this "Burning Man Project", then you should feel to whip-out your checkbook and send a million bucks to LarryCo. As long as you have satisfied yourself that all is well and good, thats all that matters. Me? I'll wait a bit. I don't have similar concerns when I look at the filings for the March of Dimes or the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation.
You seem to have missed the part where I said "I'm not giving them any" money. My point is that it is to be expected that a non-profit organization is going to solicit for money. Due diligence all you want man, I don't give a shit. But its pretty obvious that you're doing it from a place of scandal-seeking versus real interest in donating to this cause and just wanting to know exactly how the money is spent. The former is sanctimony, the latter is due diligence.

Do you really do this background check every time "someone asks me for money?" Really? That would consume 100% of my free time given all the solicitations I get. I'm guessing that this is really just another excuse to get worked-up over the BMORG, in in that sense is just a continuation of the previous outrage (which again was the whole point of my post).

User avatar
some seeing eye
Posts: 2838
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:06 pm
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: Woo
Location: The Oregon

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by some seeing eye » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:04 pm

I am hearing:

No money from BM in August in Nevada should be used outside anything not the same event the next year
I didn't get tickets so everybody including BMORG shut up and keep it a secret
No money from BM in August in Nevada should be used to communicate BM outside Nevada in August, including international
Since I go to BM in August in Nevada I control all decisions and monies of Burning Man and all its profit and nonprofit entities
Because of decommodification all financial transactions by anyone connected to the event, including the organizers, are outlawed by me

Am I missing anything?

I would also say, new burners, welcome! You can change the lives of people and communities with your 10 principles, energy and idealism within 10 miles of your home! Does not require the Internet.
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

User avatar
Sandstorm
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:37 am
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: TBD

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by Sandstorm » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:55 pm

sayZar1999 wrote:...I was bothered by an email that I got from Burning Man® today. I am speaking specifically about The Jackrabbit Speaks V19:#8:12.12.14 Supporting Burning Man
In this email Burning Man® ASKS FOR A GIFT. This is heresy...
sayZar1999: Thank you very much for your highly articulate and heartfelt post. You are one of many Burners who felt that way about that issue of JRS. Kudos to you for having the spine to speak your mind on this matter.
omegared wrote:Yes the most recent edition of JRS didn't sit well with me either. I understand the need to get the information out there for those who wish to donate, but issuing it via JRS kinda came across as a plug for money. Put it on the website...
omegared: Exactly.
Leo wrote:When I read the latest issue of "Jack Rabbit Speaks" my first reaction: You have got to be kidding!
After sherpagate, commodification camps, the lack of transparency, the minimal response to repeated questions, you guys have the balls to ask us for money?
If you have to ask for it, it isn't a gift.
Leo: Again, exactly.
Roundabout wrote:...Burning Man participants themselves are the best means for spreading the values of Burning Man around the world...
Roundabout: Happy Burners have always been THE BEST PR that Larry & Co. cold ever want. And we were FREE. And we actually PAID money TO Larry & Co. while we went to a LOT of trouble to make it to the event.

On the other hand, Larry & Co. seem to (a) have no idea what professionally handled PR consists of, (b) have very little to no idea what good customer service consists of and (c) have no idea how to properly managed their relationships with customers, with the exception being the ComCamps and the Plug & Play Camps that are/were turning a profit while being very interactive.
shroom wrote:This was my exact reaction.
shroom: And once again, exactly!
GreyCoyote wrote:I don't think I'm being unreasonable or "too sensitive" here...
GreyCoyote: No, you're not.
pink wrote:Although 'it's what nonprofits do', the appeal for funds just left a bad taste in my mouth...

...Odd too is the Fly Ranch proposal; not that they are considering making it a conservation area (a fine nonprofit goal), but that there will be commercial & residential development within it. And an airstrip??? Yes, looks like the Larry & Marian retirement village to me.
pink: Great post and good to you for pointing out the details regarding the plans for the ranch. IMHO, the airport at BRC has become a big part of the problem with the event. To me the fact that an airport is going to be installed at the ranch only further highlights the cultural disconnect that Larry & Co. have with the segment of the community that actually cares about the ethos for which the event is to stand.

User avatar
Eric
Moderator
Posts: 9307
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:45 pm
Burning Since: 2003
Camp Name: BRC Weekly
Contact:

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by Eric » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:04 pm

Sandstorm wrote:IMHO, the airport at BRC has become a big part of the problem with the event. To me the fact that an airport is going to be installed at the ranch only further highlights the cultural disconnect that Larry & Co. have with the segment of the community that actually cares about the ethos for which the event is to stand.
Now the airport is a "big part" of the problem? Apparently you don't know working & middle class people who've saved up to buy themselves planes (instead of being one of those working & middle class people who save up to buy a boat). The airport is there so people who want to fly in can - it says nothing about how much cash they have in the bank, or their values vis-a-vis the event, and it doesn't say they're assholes anymore than being able to drive a nicer car than you does. There are lots of people who just love flying, and they love to fly into the event.

The ComCamps issue has turned from a legitimate problem into a reason to scapegoat anyone who isn't a "real Burner™" in someone's eyes, and to find more issues so we can continue to create an "us against them" atmosphere. Next the ageless "tent vs. RV" bullshit is going to get pulled into this, and when that burns itself out (no pun intended), another scapegoat will be found.

Off with their heads! All of them! I know the only right way to Burn, and they are not pure enough for Burning Man! :roll:

Image
It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

Regarding Scammers & Scalpers
Please read above link for all official information.

Eric ShutterSlut
Ass't Editor, BRC Weekly

pink
Posts: 1370
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:30 am
Burning Since: 2005
Camp Name: Retrofrolic
Location: Stagecoach, NV

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by pink » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:52 am

Roundabout wrote:
pink wrote:The earlier ways of donating to BWB, BR Solar & the Arts Foundation weren't flat out pleas for cash, checks & stock, and we know what these orgs do/have done. I'm think they blew it by forming this vague entity and folded these three into it.
Pink,
I may be wrong, but I think BWB and BR Solar remain wholly separate entities. But you are right, it is much clearer what one is giving his $ to when donating to BWB or BR Solar.
No, it's clear from BMP's 990 that BWB for sure is now part of BMP. The 990 discloses Hurricane Sandy relief done by BWB in the expenses & grants sections. No mention of BRS, but I seem to remember a post discussing how all three former entities would be rolled into BMP.

I also examined the BRAF 2013 990. A lot of expenses for salaries (180k), half of income, although none to the directors. 40k for accounting, which is a hell of a lot. Of 428k in expenses, only 101k went for grants to artists. As an art related nonprofit, BRAF gets an F.
I'm not a slut, I'm good time floozy!

User avatar
GreyCoyote
Posts: 2138
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:24 am
Burning Since: 2000

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by GreyCoyote » Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:00 am

Eric: I do not have any problem with NV88. My concern is over the installation of a permanent, semi-improved field at the RANCH. I would like to understand why this would be a "need" and should be built with donated dollars.

If there is a clearly identified need why this should be built, then thats great. Hugs all around. But given the recent events I think a bit of inquiry into such things is healthy. VERY healthy.

The BMORG has been hinting about this transition to a non-profit for two years. This type of public review and discussion is exactly what should happen when the veil gets lifted from a formerly opaque business enterprise. It is normal, healthy, and should be expected. It isnt part of a smear campaign or someone saying "this is the right/only way to burn". Its just ordinary people (donors!) who want to know what/why/how the money gets spent. Certainly if the "Jerrys Kids" non-profit was going to spend money on an airport, the very same questions would be asked.
"To sum up my compassion level, I think we should feed the unwanted animals to the homeless. Or visa versa. Too much attention and money is spent on both."
(A Beautiful Mind)

User avatar
vargaso
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:26 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Suburbanoya
Location: Lincoln, CA

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by vargaso » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:52 am

I'd prefer the BMORG just keep their focus on the Nevada burn and let Burners spread the word, whatever it is that may be, to the wider world on their own. This new evangelistic mission is unnecessary, especially when it requires constant fundraising from an organization that already has a fairly large budget. And it's only fomenting mistrust among a sizable portion of the Burner community. If I want to hear pledge drives, I'll listen to NPR.

User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
Posts: 14513
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe
Location: Palm Springs
Contact:

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by Elderberry » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:03 am

Well of course there's a need. How else would all those deep pockets board members get to meetings? Time is money you know. Silly boy.

GreyCoyote wrote:Eric: I do not have any problem with NV88. My concern is over the installation of a permanent, semi-improved field at the RANCH. I would like to understand why this would be a "need" and should be built with donated dollars.

If there is a clearly identified need why this should be built, then thats great. Hugs all around. But given the recent events I think a bit of inquiry into such things is healthy. VERY healthy.

The BMORG has been hinting about this transition to a non-profit for two years. This type of public review and discussion is exactly what should happen when the veil gets lifted from a formerly opaque business enterprise. It is normal, healthy, and should be expected. It isnt part of a smear campaign or someone saying "this is the right/only way to burn". Its just ordinary people (donors!) who want to know what/why/how the money gets spent. Certainly if the "Jerrys Kids" non-profit was going to spend money on an airport, the very same questions would be asked.
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

maladroit
Posts: 2330
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:37 pm
Burning Since: 2012

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by maladroit » Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:34 am

OK, so trilobyte is saying that whatever BMORG does outside of the event doesn't have to follow the principles because it's not AT Burning Man, and Eric is saying that anyone complaining about BMORG finances outside the event is just finding more issues to complain about alongside commodity camps, and telling people How to Burn their Burn. Others here are saying that non-profits are required to have financial transparency, and keeping them opaque indicates there is something to hide. Yet others are upset with the mere fact that large sums of money are heading in the general direction of BMORG, regardless of how it is spent. Some believe that airport == enabling rich assholes (with the assumption that the rich are assholes). Some believe that airplanes are purchased, maintained, and flown by poor families babysitting and mowing lawns.

Commodity camps made it glaringly obvious that the BMORG does not have to hold itself to the standard that it places upon the larger community. As people run across more things that COULD be twisted to personal gain, they will start to wonder if it IS being twisted, whether or not there is any evidence. The commodity camps and evasive response to the complaints have created an atmosphere of suspicion, and telling people to stop being suspicious will only make them more suspicious.

User avatar
vargaso
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:26 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Suburbanoya
Location: Lincoln, CA

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by vargaso » Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:49 am

maladroit wrote:OK, so trilobyte is saying that whatever BMORG does outside of the event doesn't have to follow the principles because it's not AT Burning Man, and Eric is saying that anyone complaining about BMORG finances outside the event is just finding more issues to complain about alongside commodity camps, and telling people How to Burn their Burn. Others here are saying that non-profits are required to have financial transparency, and keeping them opaque indicates there is something to hide. Yet others are upset with the mere fact that large sums of money are heading in the general direction of BMORG, regardless of how it is spent. Some believe that airport == enabling rich assholes (with the assumption that the rich are assholes). Some believe that airplanes are purchased, maintained, and flown by poor families babysitting and mowing lawns.

Commodity camps made it glaringly obvious that the BMORG does not have to hold itself to the standard that it places upon the larger community. As people run across more things that COULD be twisted to personal gain, they will start to wonder if it IS being twisted, whether or not there is any evidence. The commodity camps and evasive response to the complaints have created an atmosphere of suspicion, and telling people to stop being suspicious will only make them more suspicious.
Standard response to criticism:

"I don't work directly with the BMORG, but I know people who do and discussions are being held about this issue and a solution will be communicated soon. It's not wha you think. I can't say exactly what it is, but trust me."

"Who? Who is working on it?"

"Top men."

"Like who?"

"Top. Men."

Image

User avatar
Eric
Moderator
Posts: 9307
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:45 pm
Burning Since: 2003
Camp Name: BRC Weekly
Contact:

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by Eric » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:37 pm

So glad people read the post I quoted, and was responding to, and didn't just smash my response into their preconcieved notions of what I was saying.
Sandstorm wrote:IMHO, the airport at BRC has become a big part of the problem with the event.
I'm not commenting on what they're planning for the Ranch at all, I'm pointing out that people are finding fault with anything outside their narrow definition of acceptable behavior at Burning Man itself, and using "part of the problem" as some sort of hand-waving code for "not doing it like I think it should be done". I agree that ComCamps being treated as "special"is a problem, but that has now become an excuse to attack basically anything dealing with Larry Harvey & Co. The well deserved anger of the community about Commerce Camps is being used by some as a perpetual anger machine, and I find that as iritating as I find the perpetual rage of any extremists. Working towards a solution is one thing - being pissed off just so you can find more things to be pissed off about is another. This is not directed at Sandstorm, it was just his quote that hit me after reading all this.

I will also freely admit that people are correct about the fact I don't really care what they do outside BMan itself - I'm not donating to the Project, so I don't really care where they spend that money. As long as they keep doing their job for the Nevada event (dealing with all the governments & permits, dealing with porta-potties, etc), and keep the playing field as level as possible at the event, I don't see a reason to sharpen my pitchfork. If they give a privileged group special treatment again... that's different.

Burning Man always been a kick-ass week in the desert, filled with great art and even greater people, and I know I'll be there next year, hell or high water, and that none of this will matter when my boots are in the dust.
It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

Regarding Scammers & Scalpers
Please read above link for all official information.

Eric ShutterSlut
Ass't Editor, BRC Weekly

User avatar
lucky420
Posts: 8360
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:47 am
Burning Since: 2021
Camp Name: Dye with Dignity
Location: Reno, NV

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by lucky420 » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:39 pm

yep ^^^
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

User avatar
Morrell
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:32 am
Burning Since: 2007
Location: The LBC

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by Morrell » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:41 pm

Well put, Eric!

User avatar
some seeing eye
Posts: 2838
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:06 pm
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: Woo
Location: The Oregon

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by some seeing eye » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:31 pm

Burning Man® is a business that is trying to diversify to other countries. Unlike Uber, they are raising the money to do so as a nonprofit corporation. For those solely focused on TTITD, and the vast majority of attendees are, the event in Nevada could vanish overnight, by federal, state, or local politics, a death or injury resulting in a successful lawsuit, or any number of other reasons. TTITD as it is today does not have enough free cash flow to implement the worldwide expansion.

The BORG is at a critical stage where if it is going to diversify, it should do it now, because it has the right critical mass of network connections, the international groups are viable but not very integrated, generally good cred in the Valley, Hollywood, and internationally, and the people running the BORG have the right maturity, not too old, not too young and the energy to work the transition.

If you have been following the BC alt-BM mess, that could happen in any country, and that is what the BMORG is concerned about. It is expensive to prevent, but even more expensive to undo. Neglected, the risk is the brand could lose trademark protection entirely in other countries.

I don't have any inside information, and these are my observations solely.

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming...
Image
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
Posts: 14513
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe
Location: Palm Springs
Contact:

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by Elderberry » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:44 pm

I agree. Now can everybody stop being suspicious already!?
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

maladroit
Posts: 2330
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:37 pm
Burning Since: 2012

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by maladroit » Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:06 pm

Eric wrote:I agree that ComCamps being treated as "special"is a problem, but that has now become an excuse to attack basically anything dealing with Larry Harvey & Co.
I really don't think it's being used as an excuse. It's more of a loose thread that was begging to be tugged, and now a lot of other things are unraveling too.

User avatar
Sandstorm
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:37 am
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: TBD

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by Sandstorm » Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:06 pm

Eric wrote:Now the airport is a "big part" of the problem?
Eric: This is a friendly post, not a mean spirited one.

If you are as open-minded as you say you are then you could have responded to my remark about the BRC airport with one very simple question. Your post could have gone something like this.
"Sandstorm: Could you please explain to me how you see the BRC airport as being a problem. Thanks."
Instead of doing that you wrote this:
Eric wrote:...The ComCamps issue has turned from a legitimate problem into a reason to scapegoat anyone who isn't a "real Burner™" in someone's eyes, and to find more issues so we can continue to create an "us against them" atmosphere. Next the ageless "tent vs. RV" bullshit is going to get pulled into this, and when that burns itself out (no pun intended), another scapegoat will be found.

Off with their heads! All of them! I know the only right way to Burn, and they are not pure enough for Burning Man! :roll:
In 99.9% of my posts about the ComCamp Controversy I've been nothing but diplomatic and overtly patient. I've never stooped to ad hominem attacks or slander or trying to create an Us. Vs. Them mentality. I've gone out of my way to make distinctions between Larry & Co. and the countless amazing people who are part of THE BORG. I've repeatedly said that my main gripe with Larry & Co. in this situation is that it was THEM who introduced CLASS WARFARE into Black Rock City. Until SHERPAGATE blew up most Burners did not care about other Burners net worth or lack of it. SHERPGATE changed that reality FOREVER because we, the Burners, found out that Larry & Co. were playing fast and loose with access to tickets and influence to some of the people who are running BM. There are those of us who care a lot about the ethos of the event and choose not to look away when we see Larry & Co. repeatedly running the event in stupid and/or shady ways. That doesn't make us haters or rabble rousers; it just makes us people with a certain set of principles. Full stop.

You know nothing about me yet you're willing to ascribe all kinds of nonsensical world views to me, someone whose vocal concerns about BM have been almost uniformly peaceful towards and respectful of others.

Your post is the now the third time I've been attacked on eplaya in recent weeks. You talk about how THEY are creating an US VS.THEM scenario but you're doing a pretty good job of assigning me to a mindless mob of which I've never been part. What makes me laugh about your attack on me is that my for decades my father was a commercial pilot and thus I grew up behind the check-in counter of various airlines. I sat at the controls of a plane in flight before I was 10 years old. I'm the LEAST likely person to look down my nose at the amount of people flying into BRC. My comment about the BRC was related to a very small aspect of the airport feeds the ComCamp culture. If you had asked me about my feelings on the matter I would have gladly shared them with you. Instead, you attacked me. Nice job.

I thought that I couldn't be more fed up with eplaya than I already was before I logged into the site today. I was mistaken on that count.

Have a nice day. :)

User avatar
GreyCoyote
Posts: 2138
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:24 am
Burning Since: 2000

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by GreyCoyote » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:21 pm

Elderberry wrote:I agree. Now can everybody stop being suspicious already!?
Personally, no.

When we catch someone red-handed doing something shady, and especially when they are not particularly shamed (or are flat-out defiant), then IMHO, we do not stop being suspicious. We should go the other way and become more vigilant. Any other response does not make sense to me. This ethic of oversight should apply to Larry and Co.

The IRS-990's and Schedule O's are a required filing for anyone who seeks the benefits of having a 501(c)(3) non-profit veil. These documents are on public display for a good reason. There is an underlying presumption at law, based on a long history of really outrageous abuses, that the veil of an NPO can and will be abused by some. As a result all 501(c)(3)'s are required to disclose their activities.

This process of taking Larry & Co to task, and asking pointed questions, and hopefully GETTING ANSWERS, is the absolute right of the public, not just "burners". I for one will not be coerced or shamed from asserting that right. Oversight is our right. We are all overseers. Doubly so when we are, in Larry's words, stakeholders in this enterprise.

So no, in my opinion, putting away our high degree of suspicion of Larry & Co is clearly not warranted. Yet.
"To sum up my compassion level, I think we should feed the unwanted animals to the homeless. Or visa versa. Too much attention and money is spent on both."
(A Beautiful Mind)

User avatar
vargaso
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:26 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Suburbanoya
Location: Lincoln, CA

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by vargaso » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:31 pm

I've learned to tune out naysayers around these parts, they've shown to be wrong at almost every turn the past few years as various challenges have arisen and some of us have pointed them out. I remember pointing out here in 2011 that I read an interview with Larry where he mentioned the possibility of a lottery system for tickets. Oh boy, was that post dismissed, until...it happened. So, I agree, keep up the (reasonable) vigilance.

User avatar
Sandstorm
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:37 am
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: TBD

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by Sandstorm » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:31 pm

GreyCoyote wrote:...So no, in my opinion, putting away our high degree of suspicion of Larry & Co is clearly not warranted. Yet.
vargaso wrote:...So, I agree, keep up the (reasonable) vigilance.
One thing that I've repeatedly said to people in recent months about Larry & Co. is that behavior such as the Ticket Lottery Fiasco and the ComCap Controversy didn't just magically happen on their own. Prior to those events taking place there were people at the heart of the Burning Man power structure who had value systems that created an environment in which some very bad decisions were made about how the event was being run and the community was being treated. While I have desire to nail Larry to a cross I also have no desire to conveniently forget the large scale nonsense that's been going on with Larry & Co. since 2012. I also have no desire to forget the many negative anecdotal stories that I've heard from people who are or have been connected to THE BORG, who work or have worked with various areas of THE BORG. Not one person who's told me those stories was on a vendetta against anyone associated with BM. What those people told me were straight forward stories about cronyism, incompetence, abuse and clueless behavior taking place at all levels of THE BORG. Some of those people have been involved with the event for between 10 and 20 hours and are not relative newcomers to the event who have little burn related experience upon which to base their critical opinions about Larry & Co.

I've loved been being part of the event and the community. Nothing that I've learned about Larry & Co. in recent months has made me regret my involvement with BM. What that information has changed for me is my willingness to get more deeply involved with the event and that's a shame. Up until this year's burn I was your run of the mill Evangelical for all things BM. It breaks my heart that I'm no longer that person and that's part of why I get frustrated when certain other Burners act if I'm just some mindless hater who sees conspiracies and problems where they are none.

User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
Posts: 14513
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe
Location: Palm Springs
Contact:

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by Elderberry » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:42 pm

That was a joke. Read the last line in maladroit's post.

(though it does show how touchy people are about the topic, they've all lost their sense of humor.)

I just wish people were so passionate about fixing real world problems, like hunger, homelessness, corruption in washington, the growing income disparity, our collapsing infrastructure, etc.

Somehow Buring Man appears insignificant compared to that list.
GreyCoyote wrote:
Elderberry wrote:I agree. Now can everybody stop being suspicious already!?
Personally, no.

When we catch someone red-handed doing something shady, and especially when they are not particularly shamed (or are flat-out defiant), then IMHO, we do not stop being suspicious. We should go the other way and become more vigilant. Any other response does not make sense to me. This ethic of oversight should apply to Larry and Co.

The IRS-990's and Schedule O's are a required filing for anyone who seeks the benefits of having a 501(c)(3) non-profit veil. These documents are on public display for a good reason. There is an underlying presumption at law, based on a long history of really outrageous abuses, that the veil of an NPO can and will be abused by some. As a result all 501(c)(3)'s are required to disclose their activities.

This process of taking Larry & Co to task, and asking pointed questions, and hopefully GETTING ANSWERS, is the absolute right of the public, not just "burners". I for one will not be coerced or shamed from asserting that right. Oversight is our right. We are all overseers. Doubly so when we are, in Larry's words, stakeholders in this enterprise.

So no, in my opinion, putting away our high degree of suspicion of Larry & Co is clearly not warranted. Yet.
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

User avatar
vargaso
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:26 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Suburbanoya
Location: Lincoln, CA

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by vargaso » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:48 pm

Elderberry wrote:That was a joke. Read the last line in maladroit's post.

(though it does show how touchy people are about the topic, they've all lost their sense of humor.)

I just wish people were so passionate about fixing real world problems, like hunger, homelessness, corruption in washington, the growing income disparity, our collapsing infrastructure, etc.

Somehow Buring Man appears insignificant compared to that list.
GreyCoyote wrote:
Elderberry wrote:I agree. Now can everybody stop being suspicious already!?
Really? It's come to that? We shouldn't be discussing a Burning Man topic on a Burning Man message board because of world hunger? OK, Mr. Moderator.

User avatar
Eric
Moderator
Posts: 9307
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:45 pm
Burning Since: 2003
Camp Name: BRC Weekly
Contact:

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by Eric » Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:01 pm

Sandstorm wrote:pink: Great post and good to you for pointing out the details regarding the plans for the ranch. IMHO, the airport at BRC has become a big part of the problem with the event. To me the fact that an airport is going to be installed at the ranch only further highlights the cultural disconnect that Larry & Co. have with the segment of the community that actually cares about the ethos for which the event is to stand.
Sandstorm - I responded to your airport reference based on the paragraph it was in (re-quoted above, so people don't have to hunt for it if they want to read it), and in that context it reads to me that you saw the airport at BRC as a point of disconnect between "Larry & Co" and "the community that actually cares", same as the airport at the ranch, which ties in to other posts from other people that seem to be going after anything that annoys them personally as a "problem" for the event. That was what I based my post on. If you meant something completely different about why exactly you see the airport as a problem, I would have no idea from the way it was posted. I didn't ask for clarification because I thought it was clear.

I'm also a bit concerned that you see me (and others) disagreeing as "attacks". I'm disagreeing with your opinions, and in some cases strongly disagreeing. That doesn't mean I'm attacking you personally -you are as free as anyone to argue your side, but people who disagree have the same right. It certainly doesn't mean I see you as a "hater", it simply means I don't agree with some of what you're saying about this. We could be in complete agreement on other subjects, but since this seems to be the only one where our paths are crossing, all you're seeing is the area where we have different views, and it seems, assuming that means I'm attacking you. Please be assured I'm not, I just posting my reactions to what I'm reading on this topic.
It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

Regarding Scammers & Scalpers
Please read above link for all official information.

Eric ShutterSlut
Ass't Editor, BRC Weekly

User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
Posts: 14513
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe
Location: Palm Springs
Contact:

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by Elderberry » Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:05 pm

You can discuss whatever your heart desires on this board, I'd have thought you would have picked up on that by now. I happen to want to post about my thoughts an the intensity and passion evoked by a camping trip to the desert versus world hunger or anything else in that list, which are real issues effecting the entire world. (First world problems, I guess?)

Even moderators are allowed to have and express an opinion and I'd have thought you'd have picket up on that already too. I've been a board member here a whole lot longer than I've been a moderator, for me nothing has changed, except it's not as much fun when you have responsibilities.
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

maladroit
Posts: 2330
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:37 pm
Burning Since: 2012

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by maladroit » Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:14 pm

I'm the very last person in the world to expect perfect organization, flawless decision making, complying with every minor regulation, and staying true to every last principle.

You do what you can. Sometimes stuff falls through the cracks. It would be strange if an event based on free expression and borderline anarchy somehow had smoothly whirring business machinery.

This has to be a creaky, rattletrap, lashed-together jalopy (like most non-profits and many corporations).

But if someone notices that a wheel is falling off, or your mechanic forged the smog certificate, you fix those things. You don't act like they're Just Haters(TM).

In friendships and relationships, I accept that people are flawed, and will make mistakes or even do things for the wrong reasons. I don't think less of those people unless they refuse to admit it's wrong.

User avatar
GreyCoyote
Posts: 2138
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:24 am
Burning Since: 2000

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by GreyCoyote » Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:36 pm

Elderberry wrote:You can discuss whatever your heart desires on this board, I'd have thought you would have picked up on that by now. I happen to want to post about my thoughts an the intensity and passion evoked by a camping trip to the desert versus world hunger or anything else in that list, which are real issues effecting the entire world. (First world problems, I guess?)
I guess my response to that is this: "This is a BURNING MAN board". So what you are going to hear on this board, by definition, should be on that topic or at least tangentially related. If you'd like to have a discussion about "real issues" like "world hunger", there are other boards for that.

My point is, there is a time and place for everything. The fact you do not see us talking about those issues here does not mean we are not aware of, or inactive in those issues. It simply means we know what the local topic is about and we're staying on-topic. Well.... mostly. :mrgreen:

Edited to add: Every time I use italics like that, I wonder where BBadger got off to... :wink:
"To sum up my compassion level, I think we should feed the unwanted animals to the homeless. Or visa versa. Too much attention and money is spent on both."
(A Beautiful Mind)

User avatar
Eric
Moderator
Posts: 9307
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:45 pm
Burning Since: 2003
Camp Name: BRC Weekly
Contact:

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by Eric » Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:54 pm

maladroit wrote:But if someone notices that a wheel is falling off, or your mechanic forged the smog certificate, you fix those things. You don't act like they're Just Haters(TM).
I completely agree. I also don't think the people with issues are Just Haters™, but I do think that some people are using specific issues to go after their own unrelated pet peeves. To use your analogy: it's like noticing that a wheel is falling off your vehicle, then trying to figure out if the paint job on a completely different car was done correctly. Keep your eyes on the Commerce Camps, keep your eyes on the Project if you wish, but be able to tell when you're seeing a real problem and when you're making something into one. There are plenty of real problems to deal with around the event to keep focused on for those who wish to.




(psst: on a PC you can use alt-code for the ™ symbol - just hit alt-0153 You can do it on a Mac as well, I just don't know how to.)
It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

Regarding Scammers & Scalpers
Please read above link for all official information.

Eric ShutterSlut
Ass't Editor, BRC Weekly

User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
Posts: 14513
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe
Location: Palm Springs
Contact:

Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Post by Elderberry » Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:56 pm

No, don't particularly want to discuss world hunger on this board or any other. That's what Facebook is for. 8)

I just think that some people are elevating Burning Man to a level of importance beyond what it deserves. No matter what the BMORG does, the sun will rise tomorrow, and some people will go to burning man and some people want.

I'd rather be discussing and learning about how to improve my shower, or build a swamp cooler or what people are bringing to the meet n greet. Useful topics that can be applied to making everyone's burn better next year--no matter what the BORG does. i.e. things I have control over.

But, by all means, discuss what you will. :wink:
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

Post Reply

Return to “Philosophical Center”