Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
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vargaso
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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby vargaso » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:05 pm

Elderberry wrote:No, don't particularly want to discuss world hunger on this board or any other. That's what Facebook is for. 8)

I just think that some people are elevating Burning Man to a level of importance beyond what it deserves. No matter what the BMORG does, the sun will rise tomorrow, and some people will go to burning man and some people want.

I'd rather be discussing and learning about how to improve my shower, or build a swamp cooler or what people are bringing to the meet n greet. Useful topics that can be applied to making everyone's burn better next year--no matter what the BORG does. i.e. things I have control over.

But, by all means, discuss what you will. :wink:


Uh, OK. Pretty sure most of us on this thread have contributed mightily to the Preparations topics over the years. Doesn't mean we can't ALSO discuss this. But I appreciate you weighing in on what you'd rather not discuss. I can't wait to see how well I sleep tonight.

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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby Sandstorm » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:27 pm

Eric wrote:...I'm also a bit concerned that you see me (and others) disagreeing as "attacks".


Eric: Thank you for your post. As much as I'm frustrated with some of the people on here I don't want to create any acrimony between you and me. I simply wish that you hadn't gone from zero to 100 so quickly in regards to how you interpreted my remark about the BRC airport. You read 2 sentences that I wrote and responded to them by painting me as being someone who is BURNIER THAN THOU. I can take all the time in the world to write long, sensible posts that cover almost every angle of logic involved with the ComCamp Controversy but somehow 2 basic sentences in a non-controversial post get me painted as being BURNIER THAN THOU. I find that that' really f*cking depressing.

It should be clear to most people in here that those of us who are choosing to not give Larry & Co. a free pass are tired of basically being called whiners and rabble rousers. That kind of ad hominem attacks are especially grating when folks like myself are not advocating class warfare in BRC or belittling the ENTIRETY of THE BORG. People such as myself feel justifiably disgusted when Larry rolls out a blog entry that basically argues that "poor" burners are just upset because they don't have hot tubs, chandeliers and Maids of Merriment in their pathetic excuses for camps. People such as myself see patterns of lesser and questionable behavior going on in BRC and within the power structure of THE BORG and when we speak up about those behavioral patterns there's a small cluster of folks who get rude and insulting with us.

As for my feelings about my having been attacked on here by people other than yourself, I was in fact attacked and it wasn't my imagination. Other burners I know have read the recent attacks that were made on me and have basically said "WTF?" about those comments. Those same Burners friends have shared with me their dislike for the atmosphere on eplaya.

I'm basically done with this place. I never went back into the thread where I was attacked a couple of weeks ago. I'm tired of the toxicity that sometimes manifests in here. I basically feel that I'm being told that I'm BURNING WRONG unless I shut the f*ck up and sign off on whatever it is that Larry & Co. are doing with the event. Sorry, I'm not buying what they're selling.

No one has to agree with my feelings about Larry & Co. I don't expect everyone to share those opinions or to play as nicely with me as I do with them. Separately, when someone as patient as me is saying that there's something wrong in the water on eplaya then that's the truth. I'm not one to unnecessarily point fingers at others and demean them. I'm not one to cause trouble for trouble's sake. At this point I'm looking at eplaya and Larry & Co. via the following adage:

"Not my monkeys, not my circus."


I've enjoyed my time at BM. I've tried to be a good Burner in as many ways as possible. I've been burnt out by the ComCamp Controversy and my recently being attacked on here was the final straw for me in regards to me investing my time on eplaya and me investing my emotional capital in promoting the event to non-burners. I only posted in here last night because I wanted to be supportive of the OP and some of the other folks in here.

Have a good night. :)

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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby maladroit » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:15 pm

Eric wrote:I do think that some people are using specific issues to go after their own unrelated pet peeves. To use your analogy: it's like noticing that a wheel is falling off your vehicle, then trying to figure out if the paint job on a completely different car was done correctly.


I'm OK with that analogy. If your wheel fell off, the shop is informed and just shrugs their shoulders and says you're envious of people with Ferraris, and the same shop that rotated your tires also installed a new muffler, and painted your friend's car on your recommendation. The average person is going to inspect the other work from this shop, tell their friends to check into it, and maybe report their experience on Yelp. It's not a ridiculous reaction if it's the same shop.

It's funny, because I actually had this exact experience last month. My wheels didn't fall off, but were trying their best...the level of denial and victim-blaming was amazing. They were far more concerned about covering up my reaction, than the fact that they did unsatisfactory and dangerous work. I discovered their Yelp page was full of astroturfed five star reviews and got most of them removed. What remained was a pattern of mishandling their job, regardless of which car and what type of work was being done.

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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby alt12 » Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:05 pm

Sandstorm wrote: You read 2 sentences that I wrote and responded to them by painting me as being someone who is BURNIER THAN THOU. I can take all the time in the world to write long, sensible posts that cover almost every angle of logic involved with the ComCamp Controversy but somehow 2 basic sentences in a non-controversial post get me painted as being BURNIER THAN THOU. I find that that' really f*cking depressing.

It should be clear to most people in here that those of us who are choosing to not give Larry & Co. a free pass are tired of basically being called whiners and rabble rousers. That kind of ad hominem attacks are especially grating when folks like myself are not advocating class warfare in BRC or belittling the ENTIRETY of THE BORG. People such as myself feel justifiably disgusted when Larry rolls out a blog entry that basically argues that "poor" burners are just upset because they don't have hot tubs, chandeliers and Maids of Merriment in their pathetic excuses for camps. People such as myself see patterns of lesser and questionable behavior going on in BRC and within the power structure of THE BORG and when we speak up about those behavioral patterns there's a small cluster of folks who get rude and insulting with us.

As for my feelings about my having been attacked on here by people other than yourself, I was in fact attacked and it wasn't my imagination. Other burners I know have read the recent attacks that were made on me and have basically said "WTF?" about those comments. Those same Burners friends have shared with me their dislike for the atmosphere on eplaya.

I'm basically done with this place. I never went back into the thread where I was attacked a couple of weeks ago. I'm tired of the toxicity that sometimes manifests in here.


I totally agree Sandstorm. Eric loves to call out "burnier than thou" whenever anyone makes a complaint about anything that happens at BM that he doesn't agree with. The underlying implication is that it is not legitimate to voice complaints or express dislikes of behaviors, attitudes or activities that occur at BM. Instead of discussing the issue, he attacks the complainer.

Personally, if I were a moderator on here I would be careful not to make these kinds of ad hominem attacks on people's character. And that is exactly what calling someone "burner than thou" is. It essentially is saying that they are sanctimonious, which is by definition an attack on a person's character. This is what people do when they can't or don't want to engage in a debate on the points brought up. Instead they attack the character of the person making the point in an attempt to delegitimize their viewpoint. Sadly, its quite common online.

In the past, I've done the exact same thing as you have done. I just drop off eplaya. I've been eplaya since 2004 but find the negativity and attacks often to be an unnecessary element of my life, so I just leave. Sometimes I'll go many months without posting on here for this very reason. And yes, being called "burnier than thou" is absolutely something that has discouraged from even coming on here. That type of comment makes ePlaya a very unfriendly and unwelcoming place to express views. That is especially the case when it comes from one of the moderators.

Thanks for sharing Sandstorm, you have absolutely mirrored my experience on here. Its nice to be validated.

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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby Jovankat » Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:11 pm

Elderberry wrote:I'd rather be discussing and learning about how to improve my shower, or build a swamp cooler or what people are bringing to the meet n greet. Useful topics that can be applied to making everyone's burn better next year--no matter what the BORG does. i.e. things I have control over.

But, by all means, discuss what you will. :wink:


That's what the Preparation and 2015 event sections of this board is for. This part is for the politics and philosophy of the event. Folks posting here aren't stopping you from posting in the other sections about showers and swamp coolers.

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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby Elderberry » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:50 am

Why thank you. I don't thinking could have ever figured that out without your help. :roll:

And you are missing the point of what Eric is saying, but he can speak for himself, so I'll let him smarten you up on that should he so desire.

Jovankat wrote:
Elderberry wrote:I'd rather be discussing and learning about how to improve my shower, or build a swamp cooler or what people are bringing to the meet n greet. Useful topics that can be applied to making everyone's burn better next year--no matter what the BORG does. i.e. things I have control over.

But, by all means, discuss what you will. :wink:


That's what the Preparation and 2015 event sections of this board is for. This part is for the politics and philosophy of the event. Folks posting here aren't stopping you from posting in the other sections about showers and swamp coolers.
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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby vargaso » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:01 am

I think the main gripe in this thread is the blatant fundraising for the Burning Man Project in the latest Jackrabbit, particularly with regards to some "improvements" being made to the Fly Ranch. Are you saying that is not worth discussing, Elderberry? Not sure where you are coming from here, and I'm confused at the continued posts dismissing people's concerns. If you don't think these issues are worth discussing, can you explain why?

Edited: just read Eric's posts a little more closely, so I took out my question to him.

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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby Sandstorm » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:39 pm

alt12 wrote:I totally agree Sandstorm.


Thanks for your support. I sincerely wish that I didn't feel the way that I do about eplaya. In theory it should be a welcoming place for all but it's not. There are some great people that pass through here and some of them have made me feel very positive on an emotional level via their posts and/or PMs and I'm thankful for those experiences. That said, IMHO this site is not a healthy place to spend my time. Dusty hugs.

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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby tatonka » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:51 pm

Sandstorm sling some of the poo back , this place will let you hollar out . Sometimes it just teaseing , so dont let it get you down . You feel whatever you want to feel about stuff , dont let any words mess with ya. Let your skin become thick like the leather skin of a burner ")
" Make me strong , not to be superiour to my brothers , to fight my greatest enemy ....... myself . " Chief Dan George .

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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby digital » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:04 pm

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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby Eric » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:31 pm

I will try to be clear as possible, but everyone reads through their own filters (ie: me with Sandstorms mention of the airport)
(note: the tl;dr version is highlighted in the first paragraph)

The complaint I had above wasn't about specific people being "Burnier than thou", it was about people using an actual problem (the way Commerce Camps have been treated differently from any other theme camp) to justify their dislike for other aspects of how people Burn, and my basic question is "where does it end'? I study history, and as I see the targets expanding, I start to see the "eat your own" mentality arising, which also comes from posts (not from Sandstorm) with people basically saying "if you're not with us, you're against us", or that when you agreed there was a problem with the ComCamps determines if you have a right to speak about it (or even if you have a right to speak in a thread at all if you disagree with the OP). Even though this thread has been fairly mild, Sandstorms out-of-the-blue reference to the airport was what gelled all these thoughts about "splitters" that had been floating around my head, and that I had even referenced in another of these threads with a Monty Python video weeks ago.

My concern isn't how someone Burns - if you go to Burning Man, you're a Burner, full stop. From a hippy-dippy healer to a Brobot Heart douche to someone in khakis and a tee-shirt all the way down to a "Fuck Yer Burn" asshole like myself, everyone is a legitimate Burner if they go & they want the title, even the rich people in their fancy camps who fly in (doesn't mean everyone gets a snark-shield, only that they get to be equally mocked as well as accepted). My only concern at the event itself is that the BMorg treats everyone who attends as equally as possible. That said, I fully expect the board & the people who run it to fuck up, and I expect it to happen fairly regularly. I don't see how anyone who's attended more than a few years would expect them not to fuck something up when dealing with The Community™ when they've done it so often in the past. They also usually attempt to fix those fuck-ups, which is more than most companies do. They've also kept Burning Man going against long odds, and made it a place we all want to go, so I don't have lingering issues with them (I've also met most of them because of our playa-papers, and they're decent people IMHO)

As for the Project and the ranch? As long as they don't fuck up the event (again) in their quest to do whatever they're doing there, I don't care about it, but I'm also fine with people wanting to dig up as much as possible about it. I'm fine with people digging up as much as possible on the event itself, I'm sure there's plenty to be found. My only concern is that people remember to focus on actual problems, and not to use their hunts just to find reasons to marginalize other Burners (which I will now be accused of).
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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby vargaso » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:11 pm

Eric wrote:I will try to be clear as possible, but everyone reads through their own filters (ie: me with Sandstorms mention of the airport)
(note: the tl;dr version is highlighted in the first paragraph)

The complaint I had above wasn't about specific people being "Burnier than thou", it was about people using an actual problem (the way Commerce Camps have been treated differently from any other theme camp) to justify their dislike for other aspects of how people Burn, and my basic question is "where does it end'? I study history, and as I see the targets expanding, I start to see the "eat your own" mentality arising, which also comes from posts (not from Sandstorm) with people basically saying "if you're not with us, you're against us", or that when you agreed there was a problem with the ComCamps determines if you have a right to speak about it (or even if you have a right to speak in a thread at all if you disagree with the OP). Even though this thread has been fairly mild, Sandstorms out-of-the-blue reference to the airport was what gelled all these thoughts about "splitters" that had been floating around my head, and that I had even referenced in another of these threads with a Monty Python video weeks ago.

My concern isn't how someone Burns - if you go to Burning Man, you're a Burner, full stop. From a hippy-dippy healer to a Brobot Heart douche to someone in khakis and a tee-shirt all the way down to a "Fuck Yer Burn" asshole like myself, everyone is a legitimate Burner if they go & they want the title, even the rich people in their fancy camps who fly in (doesn't mean everyone gets a snark-shield, only that they get to be equally mocked as well as accepted). My only concern at the event itself is that the BMorg treats everyone who attends as equally as possible. That said, I fully expect the board & the people who run it to fuck up, and I expect it to happen fairly regularly. I don't see how anyone who's attended more than a few years would expect them not to fuck something up when dealing with The Community™ when they've done it so often in the past. They also usually attempt to fix those fuck-ups, which is more than most companies do. They've also kept Burning Man going against long odds, and made it a place we all want to go, so I don't have lingering issues with them (I've also met most of them because of our playa-papers, and they're decent people IMHO)

As for the Project and the ranch? As long as they don't fuck up the event (again) in their quest to do whatever they're doing there, I don't care about it, but I'm also fine with people wanting to dig up as much as possible about it. I'm fine with people digging up as much as possible on the event itself, I'm sure there's plenty to be found. My only concern is that people remember to focus on actual problems, and not to use their hunts just to find reasons to marginalize other Burners (which I will now be accused of).


Brobot Heart! Ha!

Makes sense, Eric, I pretty much agree with you. My concern is that the focus of the BMORG seems to be moving from the burn to whatever it is the Burning Man Project is doing. And that the culture of the Burning Man Project is very different than what I consider the culture of Burning Man. And that that will bleed over into decisions about the desert burn itself, as I believe it did with the commodification camps. So, while the goings on at Fly Ranch may not be officially related to the burn, I think it's indicative of where Burning Man decision makers are turning towards. And I think others share this concern.

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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby Eric » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:21 pm

vargaso wrote:My concern is that the focus of the BMORG seems to be moving from the burn to whatever it is the Burning Man Project is doing. And that the culture of the Burning Man Project is very different than what I consider the culture of Burning Man. And that that will bleed over into decisions about the desert burn itself, as I believe it did with the commodification camps. So, while the goings on at Fly Ranch may not be officially related to the burn, I think it's indicative of where Burning Man decision makers are turning towards. And I think others share this concern.


That I fully understand, and I feel the same way, which is why I said "As long as they don't fuck up the event (again) in their quest to do whatever they're doing there, I don't care about it". They fuck up my favorite vacation spot & I'm going to be pissed, but I have a slow-burn personality and I'm willing to give people chances after they've fucked up because I think that most people aren't actually out to Do Evil (but the small percentage who are is still a shit-ton of people, sadly).
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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby some seeing eye » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:42 pm

Some muck rakers can research Fly Ranch. My understanding is that every so often the owner thinks about selling it and BM thinks it is an opportunity they cannot pass up. Thus the plans. But I don't know who owns it now.

I think it's fine to debate "burnier than thou" in a positive and playful way. I don't think the Mods have special weight in "burnierness" by being Mods, but it is a fact that they have been participating for quite some time. Maybe "taking my mod hat off" is a nice prefix. Ultimately TTITD is a grand individual quest. "Burnier than thou" is simply part of the narrative culture.

I think people are getting overly grumpy now, and I'm seeing it in other places online. I think the cult-like inclusion rituals and what some consider the utopian promise of the event can have negative dimensions which we should each watch ourselves for. And as others have said, ePlaya is not BM, it is an anonymous Internet message board, and more polite than most, but I wouldn't expect it to be all unicorns pooping all rainbows all the time.
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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:57 pm

Maybe we all just hate the holidays.

And I can't remember, is this the 9th anniversary of Scott's deeath, or is that tomorrow?
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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby Sandstorm » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:25 pm

tatonka wrote:Sandstorm sling some of the poo back , this place will let you hollar out . Sometimes it just teaseing , so dont let it get you down . You feel whatever you want to feel about stuff , dont let any words mess with ya. Let your skin become thick like the leather skin of a burner ")


tatonka: This year I unexpectedly became a frequent poster over in the FB BM group. That experience truly elevated my SNARK GAME. That said, I'm just not a poo slinger. I'm a lover not a fighter. :)

Eric wrote:I will try to be clear as possible, but everyone reads through their own filters (ie: me with Sandstorms mention of the airport)
(note: the tl;dr version is highlighted in the first paragraph)...


Eric: Great post. I actually agree with everything your wrote. :)

The only issue that I have about the place where you and I crossed paths in recent days is that whether or not you intended to you lumped me with a mob to which I don't belong and to which I've never belonged. As much as I like your above quoted post you still haven't addressed the fact that the other day you lumped me in with the US VS. THEM crowd. I'm not trying to hammer you for that fact; I just want to point out the fact that if you don't see that you mistakenly lumped me in with said mob you're going to do the same thing to someone else down the line. I'm a big boy, I can handle snark and jabs. Sometimes people write stupid sh*t in here about something I wrote and I just ignore what they wrote. I don't feel a need to respond to every negative remark that someone sends my way. That said, when someone questions my values or motivations or incorrectly assigns behavioral patterns or POVs to me that's when I speak up for myself.

The simplest thing that I can say about my take on what you wrote about me the other day is as follows. Imagine that you and I are in a bar and we're hanging out with a group of people who are all there for a specific type of gathering. At some point during the evening I say something to someone and you take issue with what I said. Rather than addressing me directly about what I said you instead turn to the other people in the group and say "Can you believe that guy Sandstorm? He's just like those other irrational people I don't like." As you say that I'm standing a foot to your left and feeling a bit taken back and dumbfounded by your remarks and behavior.

I get that this is the Internet and I get that this a Burner hangout. However, I'm old, old fashioned and emotionally healthy enough to think that etiquette is a good thing in both the real world and online. You are 100% entitled to your opinions. I don't need them to be the same as mine. I just think that it's lame when people intentionally or unintentionally act as though there's not a human being with feelings and an intellect on the other side of a username. Separately, you're a mod and when you very publicly label someone such as me as being a perpetually dissatisfied whiner it sets a poor example for this board.

As for my take on Larry & Co.'s lesser behavioral patterns vargaso summed them up perfectly in his below quoted post.

vargaso wrote:...My concern is that the focus of the BMORG seems to be moving from the burn to whatever it is the Burning Man Project is doing. And that the culture of the Burning Man Project is very different than what I consider the culture of Burning Man. And that that will bleed over into decisions about the desert burn itself, as I believe it did with the commodification camps. So, while the goings on at Fly Ranch may not be officially related to the burn, I think it's indicative of where Burning Man decision makers are turning towards. And I think others share this concern.


I don't see demons and disasters in every corner of THE BORG. What I do see is a severely dysfunctional organization that has a recent track record of major mistakes and a reputation for fostering hostile and draining work environments. I see the leaders of that organization deciding that the BMP now needs to become Evangelicals for BURNING MAN CULTURE. Here's the thing: Those same leaders have a track record of: pissing and sh*tting on ticket buyers, volunteers and artists; peddling access to BM tickets and influence with people within the BM power structure; running their Public Relations in a manner that is incompetent at best.

I'm not looking to physically assault Larry & Co. or the ComCamps. I'm not looking to tell anyone how to burn. I simply no longer have any ability or willingness to trust Larry & Co. Full stop. End of story. There's no pitchforks or torches or Molotov Cocktails or sniper rifles hiding out in my Playa Infrastructure. There's also ZERO trust in my heart or mind for Larry & Co. I have endless respect for the folks who build, maintain and break down BRC and I have endless respect for those who fill BRC with creative content. I just have no trust or faith in Larry & Co. The End. That's actually a VERY simple and adult way of looking at this situation. :)

I'm a nobody in the Burner community. I'm also someone with a long history of putting on live events and doing audio-visual work. Up until a couple of years ago I thought that I'd join THE BORG or one of the big art crews. Larry & Co could give a f*ck if I stopped going to BM. The thing is that there are a lot of other Burners who, like me, are very maturely saying "WTF?" about Larry & Co.'s lesser behavioral patterns. Those burners are people who are talented and totally attuned with the 10 Principles. I think that it's very telling that those people are saying "No mas" or "Uno mas" about their relationship with BM. I know for a fact that the blow back about the ComCamp Controversy has deeply shaken people within THE BORG. I was told that by a Regional Rep and that person has repeatedly told me about the dysfunctional nature of THE BORG. I'm not some tinfoil hat wearing dude sitting in his basement writing baseless screeds about Larry & Co . In recent months I've had many people reach out to me to say that they share my POV about Larry & Co. Many of those same people have told me about the disillusionment with the event due to their lesser interactions with THE BORG. Those people tend to have been Burners for twice as long as I have.

The bottom line for me is that I've reached a new stage in my relationship with BM and with Larry & Co.. As I said in my previous post in this thread:

"Not my monkeys, not my circus."


If I go back to BRC next year I'll probably have a REALLY GREAT TIME because the ComCamp Controversy has burnt out the Evangelical passion that I had for event. If I go next year it will be just for THE FUN OF IT ALL!!! It's way easier to have fun when you don't believe in the uppermost people who are (meant to be) running the event. :)

In a weird way I'm thankful for the fact that ComCamp Controversy has burned out my zeal for Burning Man. My passion for the event was in some ways burdensome to me even as the event itself was life affirming and changing. I truly believe that in the future I'll find ways to bring the Burner spirit and ethos to various corners of the default world and I don't need to keep going to BM to be able to do so. :)

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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby Elderberry » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:02 pm

vargaso wrote:I think the main gripe in this thread is the blatant fundraising for the Burning Man Project in the latest Jackrabbit, particularly with regards to some "improvements" being made to the Fly Ranch. Are you saying that is not worth discussing, Elderberry? Not sure where you are coming from here, and I'm confused at the continued posts dismissing people's concerns. If you don't think these issues are worth discussing, can you explain why?

Edited: just read Eric's posts a little more closely, so I took out my question to him.


I think some people take things too far and are too emotionally invested in something, that ultimately, is a camping trip in the desert. However, some seeing eye happened to express pretty much how I feel better than I could have.

some seeing eye wrote:I think people are getting overly grumpy now, and I'm seeing it in other places online. I think the cult-like inclusion rituals and what some consider the utopian promise of the event can have negative dimensions which we should each watch ourselves for. And as others have said, ePlaya is not BM, it is an anonymous Internet message board, and more polite than most, but I wouldn't expect it to be all unicorns pooping all rainbows all the time.
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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby vargaso » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:30 pm

Elderberry wrote:
I think some people take things too far and are too emotionally invested in something, that ultimately, is a camping trip in the desert.


I don't believe anyone here sees Burning Man as just a "camping trip in the desert." Of course, stripped away of all the collective intention, that's indeed what it is, just as making love, stripped away of the intention, is simply mammals propagating the species. No meaning here, folks. But that reductive last resort is hardly an argument for or against anything. It's a nihilistic throwing in of the towel. OK then.

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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby Elderberry » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:53 pm

I like burning man. I didn't invent it, I don't own it,but I do like to go. I like to participate, to volunteer, to build our camp, I like the great art, the people, etc. But when I no longer like it, I won't go. It's entertainment. I don't get emotionally involved with vacations and entertainment--until I'm actually there participating and enjoying.
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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby Finnegan » Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:55 pm

So you're a burner who is no longer "emotionally involved". Kind of like a tourist, right?
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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby Sandstorm » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:29 am

vargaso wrote:
Elderberry wrote:
I think some people take things too far and are too emotionally invested in something, that ultimately, is a camping trip in the desert.


I don't believe anyone here sees Burning Man as just a "camping trip in the desert." Of course, stripped away of all the collective intention, that's indeed what it is, just as making love, stripped away of the intention, is simply mammals propagating the species. No meaning here, folks. But that reductive last resort is hardly an argument for or against anything. It's a nihilistic throwing in of the towel. OK then.


Like you I can't fathom the logic of some people to say "Hey, chill out. It's just a big party in the desert." Happy Burners don't become Evangelicals about the event because it's "JUST A PARTY".

For anyone who thinks that BM is "just" a party in the desert watch the trailer for "Spark: A Burning Man Story". In under 3 minutes it speaks to WHAT Burning Man is (meant to be) about. It also just happens to offer a window to the clusterf*ck that is Larry & Co.

http://youtu.be/B_rd0Kolfhw

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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby Elderberry » Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:11 am

Finnegan wrote:So you're a burner who is no longer "emotionally involved". Kind of like a tourist, right?


Exactly! Except a participating tourist. I don't have to get all involved in the politics or principles of the event (as a way of life outside the playa) in order to enjoy the event. And as I said earlier, when it is no longer enjoyable, for whatever reason, I'll stop going.
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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby vargaso » Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:35 am

Elderberry wrote:
Finnegan wrote:So you're a burner who is no longer "emotionally involved". Kind of like a tourist, right?


Exactly! Except a participating tourist. I don't have to get all involved in the politics or principles of the event (as a way of life outside the playa) in order to enjoy the event. And as I said earlier, when it is no longer enjoyable, for whatever reason, I'll stop going.


I get it, but then I don't get it, because it's the people giving a shit who've kept Burning Man as great as it (still) is in order for people who don't give a shit to have fun. But, since you've stated here that the politics of the BMORG do not concern you, does that mean you'll stop commenting about how you don't care about BMORG politics on threads about BMORG politics?

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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby Elderberry » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:02 pm

vargaso wrote:
Elderberry wrote:
Finnegan wrote:So you're a burner who is no longer "emotionally involved". Kind of like a tourist, right?


Exactly! Except a participating tourist. I don't have to get all involved in the politics or principles of the event (as a way of life outside the playa) in order to enjoy the event. And as I said earlier, when it is no longer enjoyable, for whatever reason, I'll stop going.


I get it, but then I don't get it, because it's the people giving a shit who've kept Burning Man as great as it (still) is in order for people who don't give a shit to have fun. But, since you've stated here that the politics of the BMORG do not concern you, does that mean you'll stop commenting about how you don't care about BMORG politics on threads about BMORG politics?

Of course not. I have opinions on lots of things I don't care enough about to act upon. And don't forget what they say about opinions btw. Opinions are like assh holes. Everybody has one, and they're all full of shit. :wink:
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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby unjonharley » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:30 pm

OH! the drama..
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby Lonesomebri » Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:28 pm

It is a post complaining about the BM Project whoring for more money, if you don't like this post, why don't you glorious people cut a check and send it in to the Project, that would really show us complainers a thing or two? What is stopping you? Instead you come here and claim that coming here and claiming anything, is a waste of time. Cut your check, why are you posting here when you can actually do something, accomplish something instead of all this blab blab blab? As for a gift, I will give to the homeless this year, and not ask for anything. Now you can go cut your check for Fest3000 and ask others to stop voicing opinions. We all have our own way to observe the season.
"If this is the best of all possible worlds, what are the others?"
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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby Elderberry » Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:02 am

I've already signed up on Amazon's Smile project to support them. But thanks for the reminder.
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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby forty_eight » Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:39 pm

I don't really care about this.

No, really.



I DON'T CARE ABOUT THIS!

NO, REALLY!













I DO NOT CARE ABOUT THIS!

NO, REALLY!

What a strange way to not care about something .. to actively pursue opportunities to express your opinions about it (something you don't care about, really!) and do so ad nauseam.

It's just that that isn't typically the way people who don't care about something act. Even if you have a general difference of opinion about something that you don't really care about, when you don't care about, you rarely invest much in trying to defend that difference of opinion.

So, please, enough with the "I don't care about it" angle.

You care enough to follow along and post in the threads - even the one or two word/sentence snippets. You care, and you disagree or you wouldn't be posting. Stop saying otherwise.

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Re: Burning Man® forgot what a gift is.

Postby Finnegan » Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:01 pm

But how much do you not care?!
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