BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITESimon of the Playa wrote:i'd like to clarify something.
i am not against Big Name DJ's. I am not against Big Sound….i love the shit, you know that. some of my good friends are objects of cults of personality, i don't begrudge them success or fame.
think of it this way…..what is better, suddenly coming across one of your favorite "acts" out of nowhere on some random venue VS. showing up at an appointed "time & Place" to see a prefab set, exactly one hour long, because you know, there's a fucking schedule to adhere to…
hell it was ADVERTISED….
one is serendipitous bliss, the other is defaultia expectations.
and you know what happens when you have expectations.
and…..whats to stop Pershing County or any other Official Agency from trying to designate BM as a "music festival" vs. an "art festival", because , you know, the fuck you fees and taxes almost double in Nevada for that shit, and look…... we have Music Line-ups being ADVERTISED, way in advance of the event.
just warning'...
Burning Man just got more expensive
- Simon of the Playa
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Burning Man just got more expensive
Frida Be You & Me
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Re: Large Sound Camp DJ Line-ups.
Simon fought the good fight, but the ostriches won (lost)

Of course, now it is a nonprofit, they could get donations from the high net worth ravers in exchange for backstage passes, right?

Of course, now it is a nonprofit, they could get donations from the high net worth ravers in exchange for backstage passes, right?
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion
- trilobyte
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
I've split this post off from the long dead thread from last year's thread. Warning to people who may click on the link to the Reno Gazette Journal's web site article... that paper has turned into some serious clickbait bullshit, in order to see the article you'll need to answer a number of questions and close a couple subscription offer boxes.
Weighing in on the subject (Nevada 9% entertainment tax being changed to now include events like Burning Man), it'll likely mean a 9% increase. State taxes and surcharges are typically passed along to the consumer (just like taxes on gas, cigarettes, alcohol, etc).
Weighing in on the subject (Nevada 9% entertainment tax being changed to now include events like Burning Man), it'll likely mean a 9% increase. State taxes and surcharges are typically passed along to the consumer (just like taxes on gas, cigarettes, alcohol, etc).
- Simon of the Playa
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
when threads are relevant, they are not really "dead"...
streisand effect, Remember?
streisand effect, Remember?
Frida Be You & Me
Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
Bunch of horse-shit, I guess it was only a matter of time before they figured out how to squeeze just a little more blood out of us... (Thanks a lot HUGE sound camps that turned this into a "my dj's dick is bigger that your dj's" pissing match. Drawing much unneeded attention to the event. Love the music, but wish it would have stayed a bit more "underground".
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...
11th Principle: Depussyfication - Keeping Burning Man potentially lethal. Token
11th Principle: Depussyfication - Keeping Burning Man potentially lethal. Token
- some seeing eye
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
I think Trillo is correct about clickbait and that news outlet. People can do their own research, but I don't think the bill is passed yet and it seems like it would need a thorough read and maybe the courts after to see it it applies to the festival in the desert. EDC-LV pulls in over 7x BM revenues. So it is likely the State of Nevada would be hungry for the bill to pass.
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion
- Lonesomebri
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
So what? How does this effect my Burn?
Oh.....wait.......
Oh.....wait.......
Camp THREAT: Dominating the porta potties 4 years running.
"If this is the best of all possible worlds, what are the others?"
- Voltaire, Candide
"If this is the best of all possible worlds, what are the others?"
- Voltaire, Candide
- Jovankat
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
So no one else has to do the survey here's the text of the article;
Nevada Burners might have conflicting feelings about a new tax ushered in by the Nevada Legislature late Monday.
On the one hand, their home-state will make more money.
On the other, Burning Man officials say that they are looking at all of their options to reckon with the estimated $2.8 million that the tax will cost Burning Man each year.
What are the options?
They include everything from bumping up ticket prices to leaving Nevada.
"We certainly understand the Nevada Legislature's need to identify revenue sources, but we believe this change to the Live Entertainment Tax is misguided," said Jim Graham, a spokesman for Burning Man.
The Nevada Legislature passed a 9 percent live entertainment tax, which first was introduced to the Senate floor in March, according to the Legislature's website. The flat tax means that some venues in the state that previously were taxed based on their size will see a decrease in their dues.
For other entities, such as Burning Man and the Electric Daisy Festival, held in Las Vegas, it will be a completely new expenditure.
Burning Man officials state that their nonprofit status formerly qualified the organization as exempt from the tax. Now the tax will collect 9 percent of all income generated by ticket sales to the event.
Burning Man has not yet disclosed the revenue that it generates from ticket sales each year, but the Internal Revenue Service documents revealing the numbers are expected this fall.
Assemblywoman Marilyn Kirkpatrick, D-North Las Vegas, co-sponsor of the bill, said that the tax currently brings in an estimated $137 million, most of which goes toward the state's General Fund. About $150,000 goes toward the Nevada Arts Council's budget, she said.
Burning Man officials believe state representatives are getting greedy, calling Kirkpatrick's bill "unbalanced and short-sighted."
According to Burning Man, the organization itself spends $11 million in Nevada annually, has vendor contracts with local businesses and is a strong supporter of arts around the state.
Burning Man participants contribute more than $40 million annually to the Nevada economy; they pay their share of sales and gas taxes, and they are tremendously supportive of local businesses, Graham said.
Burning Man's ticket admission revenue will not be taxed until 2016, even though the legislation technically goes into effect July 1 and will not begin taxing until Oct. 1, about a month after Burning Man has taken place. The event is from Aug. 30 to Sept. 7 this year.
"Burning Man already sold its tickets for this year. Anything that has already been sold does not apply," Kirkpatrick said.
Kirkpatrick said that she has been working on the bill for years due to the changing entertainment industry. When she first introduced the bill, Burning Man founder Larry Harvey suggested that Nevada might not be the best home for the event.
Kirkpatrick is unphased, she said.
Burning Man officials are reviewing the bill, figuring out what their next step will be.
"It's passed. Now we just have to take a good hard look at it," Graham said.
'STAYA DAY: Party like an Aussie! Tuesday 2pm to 6pm at Tribal Spirit, 3:15 & Fire
Methuselah: 20' steel, stained glass & fire sculpture
Methuselah: 20' steel, stained glass & fire sculpture
Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
At the risk of sounding like a Debbie Downer...
Paying taxes is a civil duty that should be celebrated. I thought some of the self-professed communists around here might support that sentiment.
State taxes support services that help the poor, young, elderly, disadvantaged, and infirm. Nevada has, unfortunately, decided to do away with its state income taxes and, as a result, faces a widening budget deficit. Perhaps not coincidentally, Nevada ranks last in terms of education. I don't think it's asking too much for burners to help contribute to other portions of the Nevada state economy which don't directly benefit from our week of fun each year.
Separately, to imply that "my dj's dick is bigger than your dj's" camps are to blame for an additional tax is absurd. Consider this: what if, this year, all the big sound camps disappeared from TTITD, but the level of ticket revenue grew. Do you think the legislature would still try to tax the event? Probably yes.
Or, what if this year, the event was completely free and there were no ticket sales whatever. The Org paid for all of the environmental remediation costs out of pocket. Would the legislature still try to tax the event? Probably not.
Paying taxes is a civil duty that should be celebrated. I thought some of the self-professed communists around here might support that sentiment.
State taxes support services that help the poor, young, elderly, disadvantaged, and infirm. Nevada has, unfortunately, decided to do away with its state income taxes and, as a result, faces a widening budget deficit. Perhaps not coincidentally, Nevada ranks last in terms of education. I don't think it's asking too much for burners to help contribute to other portions of the Nevada state economy which don't directly benefit from our week of fun each year.
Separately, to imply that "my dj's dick is bigger than your dj's" camps are to blame for an additional tax is absurd. Consider this: what if, this year, all the big sound camps disappeared from TTITD, but the level of ticket revenue grew. Do you think the legislature would still try to tax the event? Probably yes.
Or, what if this year, the event was completely free and there were no ticket sales whatever. The Org paid for all of the environmental remediation costs out of pocket. Would the legislature still try to tax the event? Probably not.
FUCK YOU, I'M A WIZARD. FUCK YOU, I'M A SHARK.
- some seeing eye
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
Bless is correct, the state of NV under a Republican plan is increasing funding to the schools. A big combination bill did that this weekend including the BM tax, also covering Electric Daisyland and NASCAR.
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion
- Simon of the Playa
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
Yeah yeah yeah
Keep telling yourself that.
I hope it lets you sleep at night.
I got no problem paying an extra 10% for schools.
My problem is i was right, and i want my "i told you so."
Bitches.
Keep telling yourself that.
I hope it lets you sleep at night.
I got no problem paying an extra 10% for schools.
My problem is i was right, and i want my "i told you so."
Bitches.
Frida Be You & Me
- tamarakay
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
you're right, you're right, you are always right.
When the only tool you got is a hammer, every problem looks like a hippie.
Mmmmmm I love the smell of Burning Man - Token
Getting overly dramatic about the ticket sale process is so 2012. - Maladroit
http://www.dyewithdignity.com
Mmmmmm I love the smell of Burning Man - Token
Getting overly dramatic about the ticket sale process is so 2012. - Maladroit
http://www.dyewithdignity.com
- Elderberry
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
While I agree on the tax thing, I don't think it is Burning Man's "Civic duty" to pay for things that should be covered by taxing the people that live in the state and corporations that do business in the state appropriately to cover their expenses and have a surplus for emergencies.Bless wrote:At the risk of sounding like a Debbie Downer...
Paying taxes is a civil civic duty that should be celebrated. I thought some of the self-professed communists around here might support that sentiment.
State taxes support services that help the poor, young, elderly, disadvantaged, and infirm. Nevada has, unfortunately, decided to do away with its state income taxes and, as a result, faces a widening budget deficit. Perhaps not coincidentally, Nevada ranks last in terms of education. I don't think it's asking too much for burners to help contribute to other portions of the Nevada state economy which don't directly benefit from our week of fun each year.
Separately, to imply that "my dj's dick is bigger than your dj's" camps are to blame for an additional tax is absurd. Consider this: what if, this year, all the big sound camps disappeared from TTITD, but the level of ticket revenue grew. Do you think the legislature would still try to tax the event? Probably yes.
Or, what if this year, the event was completely free and there were no ticket sales whatever. The Org paid for all of the environmental remediation costs out of pocket. Would the legislature still try to tax the event? Probably not.
JK

http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me
- Aurelia
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
The problem is the nation is seeming to be gone right
xoA.
xoA.
- ygmir
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
Elderberry wrote:While I agree on the tax thing, I don't think it is Burning Man's "Civic duty" to pay for things that should be covered by taxing the people that live in the state and corporations that do business in the state appropriately to cover their expenses and have a surplus for emergencies.Bless wrote:At the risk of sounding like a Debbie Downer...
Paying taxes is a civil civic duty that should be celebrated. I thought some of the self-professed communists around here might support that sentiment.
State taxes support services that help the poor, young, elderly, disadvantaged, and infirm. Nevada has, unfortunately, decided to do away with its state income taxes and, as a result, faces a widening budget deficit. Perhaps not coincidentally, Nevada ranks last in terms of education. I don't think it's asking too much for burners to help contribute to other portions of the Nevada state economy which don't directly benefit from our week of fun each year.
Separately, to imply that "my dj's dick is bigger than your dj's" camps are to blame for an additional tax is absurd. Consider this: what if, this year, all the big sound camps disappeared from TTITD, but the level of ticket revenue grew. Do you think the legislature would still try to tax the event? Probably yes.
Or, what if this year, the event was completely free and there were no ticket sales whatever. The Org paid for all of the environmental remediation costs out of pocket. Would the legislature still try to tax the event? Probably not.
this is the thing,to me: "ask to contribute" sure, ask.........but compel, via tax? no. If you are so happy to do that, send them a check (not Misa, we want to keep her!! ), but don't say I should, because you think it's a good idea. Many people resist taxation, because of the waste. Agreeing there are good, and necessary programs provided by government, but feeling cutting the fat, would lower taxation significantly, allowing us to keep more of what we earn.I don't think it's asking too much for burners to help contribute to other portions of the Nevada state economy which don't directly benefit from our week of fun each year.
YGMIR
Unabashed Nordic
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
I spent a year and a half of my life managing the implementation of a sales tax/VAT program for a ecommerce company. One thing I learned about sales tax is that it is purely bureaucratic by design and therefore is illogical. It is nothing more than ego and greed translated into law.
Any direct contribution by BMORG and Burners to the communities in Nevada have a greater impact to the people than any state sales tax systemized income distribution.
If I have to pay $425 next year for my $390 ticket, then maybe that $35 won't be spent in the local stores and small businesses in Nevada. Who really feels the pinch then? Oh, but its OK, dear Nevada resident, because that $ is going to be routed thru the state and will eventually benefit your schools and infrastructure.
Any direct contribution by BMORG and Burners to the communities in Nevada have a greater impact to the people than any state sales tax systemized income distribution.
If I have to pay $425 next year for my $390 ticket, then maybe that $35 won't be spent in the local stores and small businesses in Nevada. Who really feels the pinch then? Oh, but its OK, dear Nevada resident, because that $ is going to be routed thru the state and will eventually benefit your schools and infrastructure.
- Simon of the Playa
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
you're right, you're right, you are always right.
thats all i wanted.
so,
i'll go shut up now about the blatant re-framing of the argument.
i agree bless, it's those mean old Republicans, cutting budgets, while the Real Heroes, the Democrats are just doing the right thing.
shut up and take my money.
Frida Be You & Me
- trilobyte
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
Simon, you were absolutely right in only the most obvious and anybody-could-guess sense... the state government is working to include more events into their entertainment tax. Considering that's how state governments have been operating for decades, it's only marginally better than predicting long winter nights and longer days in summer.
You were completely wrong in that it has nothing whatsoever to do with how sound camps operate or DJ lineups or any of that other stuff. A complete 100% wrong. It has nothing to do with lineups or camps or anything else. It's all about the money. Someone in NV government scratched their heads and reached behind the couch cushions looking for change, and they realized that if they amended an existing thing they could potentially get their hands on millions more.
That said, it is worth pointing out that this will not affect the 2015 event. While the law does go into effect in July, it only applies to taxable receipts on or after October 1. I'm sure Burning Man is reviewing the details and looking into their options moving forward.
You were completely wrong in that it has nothing whatsoever to do with how sound camps operate or DJ lineups or any of that other stuff. A complete 100% wrong. It has nothing to do with lineups or camps or anything else. It's all about the money. Someone in NV government scratched their heads and reached behind the couch cushions looking for change, and they realized that if they amended an existing thing they could potentially get their hands on millions more.
That said, it is worth pointing out that this will not affect the 2015 event. While the law does go into effect in July, it only applies to taxable receipts on or after October 1. I'm sure Burning Man is reviewing the details and looking into their options moving forward.
Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
Thanks for clarifying this.trilobyte wrote:That said, it is worth pointing out that this will not affect the 2015 event. While the law does go into effect in July, it only applies to taxable receipts on or after October 1. I'm sure Burning Man is reviewing the details and looking into their options moving forward.
Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
Hi Spacetime. It was GREAT to finally meet you at the East Bay Burner thing. Hope you get a ticket. See you at the Meet N Greet.
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah
Pictures or it didn't happen Greycoyote
Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
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Pictures or it didn't happen Greycoyote
Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
Arthur Schopenhauer
- Simon of the Playa
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
It's all about the money.
i agree wholeheartedly.
Frida Be You & Me
- BoyScoutGirl
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
I suppose the question is: How does the law in Nevada define "Live Entertainment"?
I asked the internet and wasn't surprised that the answer is" it's complicated." Have a look at http://tax.nv.gov/FAQs/Live_Entertainment_Tax___FAQ’s/ if you're interested. It includes comments on the non-profit status, etc.
One bit I find interesting: the legal definition of live entertainment for the purpose of the tax appears to explicitly exempt
Hell, my own group, the Lamplighters, receives a lot of support directly from the BORG in terms of storage, power, etc. And we offer a spectacle. I suppose everyone's ticket cost goes to that, if very indirectly.
/armchair lawyering.
[mod edit - fixed URL. -Eric]
I asked the internet and wasn't surprised that the answer is" it's complicated." Have a look at http://tax.nv.gov/FAQs/Live_Entertainment_Tax___FAQ’s/ if you're interested. It includes comments on the non-profit status, etc.
One bit I find interesting: the legal definition of live entertainment for the purpose of the tax appears to explicitly exempt
But then this document (http://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocume ... mentid=221) has this to say about charging for access to live entertainment:Entertainment provided by a patron or patrons, including, without limitation, singing by patrons or dancing by or between patrons if they receive no compensation from any source for providing the entertainment.
When we buy a ticket, what are we really paying for? I consider the admittance ticket cost to cover infrastructure (comms, ESD, fire, health, etc.); it is my understanding that these monies are not used to fund live entertainers. As far as exceptions, I can think of the fireworks displays the BORG puts on throughout the week, notably immediately before Man Burn. However, pyrotechnics and the like aren't covered in the definition of "Live Entertainment." Some of the art grants might also fall under the category of ticket money going toward live performance, but only after having been "laundered" through a non-profit.Is a fee collected to ride an elevator or escalator to a live entertainment facility an admission charge?
Typically, yes. Special consideration needs to be given to situations where the patron, by riding the escalator or elevator, may gain access to a live entertainment facility, or may choose to visit only facilities that do not offer live entertainment. For purposes of taxing the admission charge, no distinction shall be made as to whether the patron actually entered a facility with live entertainment or not. Therefore, all such elevator/escalator charges will be subject to the tax unless a separate admission charge must be paid in order to gain access to the live entertainment facility. (Posted 12/22/03)
Hell, my own group, the Lamplighters, receives a lot of support directly from the BORG in terms of storage, power, etc. And we offer a spectacle. I suppose everyone's ticket cost goes to that, if very indirectly.
/armchair lawyering.
[mod edit - fixed URL. -Eric]
When he lights his streetlamp, it is as if he brought one more star to life, or one flower.
When he puts out his lamp, he sends the flower, or the star, to sleep.
That is a beautiful occupation.
- Le Petit Prince, Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
When he puts out his lamp, he sends the flower, or the star, to sleep.
That is a beautiful occupation.
- Le Petit Prince, Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
That was my first thought.
If I'm entertaining myself or my friends as a gift, who gets taxed and why?
If I'm entertaining myself or my friends as a gift, who gets taxed and why?
"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"
"If I can't find an answer, I'll create one!!!"
Fuck Im Good Just Ask Me
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- lucky420
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
if you throw a big ass party in the desert and have entertainment and charge admission to the big ass party.
that's why
that's why
Oh my god, it's HUGE!
- Eric
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
I'm pretty sure the state will argue that since you need to be in possession of a ticket to get through the Gate, that ticket counts as an admission charge. I'm also pretty sure they would win on that argument, even though we the participants create our own entertainment.
It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist
Eric ShutterSlut
Former Ass't Editor & columnist, BRC Weekly
Eric ShutterSlut
Former Ass't Editor & columnist, BRC Weekly
- some seeing eye
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
Yes complicated... First the law was just passed through the legislature on the weekend and are being signed this week. So Nevada informational websites are not updated yet for the bills. In the past, like before mid-year last year, the BM debate was framed under the live music tax law. That is why we were discussing it that way on ePlaya. That changed with the Republican governor's grand tax increase bargain in November which was designed to tax BM and NASCAR, among other things. Even if BM is not called out in the new law by name, the legislative record shows the intent to tax BM. So a court case by BMORG to reverse it is unlikely to be successful. But hey we can complain!
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
http://www.fa-mag.com/news/nevada-s-new ... section=43
Oh great. Now we're no better than "escort services". I can't believe Financial Advisor Mag (yes, I subscribe) actually printed this.
Oh great. Now we're no better than "escort services". I can't believe Financial Advisor Mag (yes, I subscribe) actually printed this.
- Sham
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
I say we ban live music. I don't think DJ's are considered LIVE music--they're just playing from their MP3's. If they consider that live, then I say the DJ's should be banned from the event.


- Simon of the Playa
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive
hey maybe bringing in BIG NAME DJ's and ADVERTISING THE LINEUP has nothing to do with making BM a Live Venue...but it probably incvreased it's visibility ( i know, riiiight, how is that possible) by causing every EDM blog from here to Podunk to Reprint the Incredible Fucking Line-up from hell.
no...not at all..
you know, i'm 100% wrong....
of course, i said this a year ago, on that thread that's "not relevant" and dead..i won't post the link, something about line-ups.....
and yes, predicting the future is as easy as predicting the weather.
any schmuck can do that.
no...not at all..
you know, i'm 100% wrong....
of course, i said this a year ago, on that thread that's "not relevant" and dead..i won't post the link, something about line-ups.....
and yes, predicting the future is as easy as predicting the weather.
any schmuck can do that.

Frida Be You & Me