Burning Man just got more expensive

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
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Simon of the Playa
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Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by Simon of the Playa » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:32 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:i'd like to clarify something.

i am not against Big Name DJ's. I am not against Big Sound….i love the shit, you know that. some of my good friends are objects of cults of personality, i don't begrudge them success or fame.



think of it this way…..what is better, suddenly coming across one of your favorite "acts" out of nowhere on some random venue VS. showing up at an appointed "time & Place" to see a prefab set, exactly one hour long, because you know, there's a fucking schedule to adhere to…

hell it was ADVERTISED….

one is serendipitous bliss, the other is defaultia expectations.

and you know what happens when you have expectations.




and…..whats to stop Pershing County or any other Official Agency from trying to designate BM as a "music festival" vs. an "art festival", because , you know, the fuck you fees and taxes almost double in Nevada for that shit, and look…... we have Music Line-ups being ADVERTISED, way in advance of the event.

just warning'...
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some seeing eye
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Re: Large Sound Camp DJ Line-ups.

Post by some seeing eye » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:13 am

Simon fought the good fight, but the ostriches won (lost)
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Of course, now it is a nonprofit, they could get donations from the high net worth ravers in exchange for backstage passes, right?
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by trilobyte » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:23 pm

I've split this post off from the long dead thread from last year's thread. Warning to people who may click on the link to the Reno Gazette Journal's web site article... that paper has turned into some serious clickbait bullshit, in order to see the article you'll need to answer a number of questions and close a couple subscription offer boxes.

Weighing in on the subject (Nevada 9% entertainment tax being changed to now include events like Burning Man), it'll likely mean a 9% increase. State taxes and surcharges are typically passed along to the consumer (just like taxes on gas, cigarettes, alcohol, etc).

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Simon of the Playa
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by Simon of the Playa » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:30 pm

when threads are relevant, they are not really "dead"...


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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by Jackass » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:45 pm

Bunch of horse-shit, I guess it was only a matter of time before they figured out how to squeeze just a little more blood out of us... (Thanks a lot HUGE sound camps that turned this into a "my dj's dick is bigger that your dj's" pissing match. Drawing much unneeded attention to the event. Love the music, but wish it would have stayed a bit more "underground".
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by some seeing eye » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:01 pm

I think Trillo is correct about clickbait and that news outlet. People can do their own research, but I don't think the bill is passed yet and it seems like it would need a thorough read and maybe the courts after to see it it applies to the festival in the desert. EDC-LV pulls in over 7x BM revenues. So it is likely the State of Nevada would be hungry for the bill to pass.
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by Lonesomebri » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:19 pm

So what? How does this effect my Burn?

Oh.....wait.......
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by Jovankat » Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:13 pm

So no one else has to do the survey here's the text of the article;
Nevada Burners might have conflicting feelings about a new tax ushered in by the Nevada Legislature late Monday.

On the one hand, their home-state will make more money.

On the other, Burning Man officials say that they are looking at all of their options to reckon with the estimated $2.8 million that the tax will cost Burning Man each year.

What are the options?

They include everything from bumping up ticket prices to leaving Nevada.

"We certainly understand the Nevada Legislature's need to identify revenue sources, but we believe this change to the Live Entertainment Tax is misguided," said Jim Graham, a spokesman for Burning Man.

The Nevada Legislature passed a 9 percent live entertainment tax, which first was introduced to the Senate floor in March, according to the Legislature's website. The flat tax means that some venues in the state that previously were taxed based on their size will see a decrease in their dues.

For other entities, such as Burning Man and the Electric Daisy Festival, held in Las Vegas, it will be a completely new expenditure.

Burning Man officials state that their nonprofit status formerly qualified the organization as exempt from the tax. Now the tax will collect 9 percent of all income generated by ticket sales to the event.

Burning Man has not yet disclosed the revenue that it generates from ticket sales each year, but the Internal Revenue Service documents revealing the numbers are expected this fall.

Assemblywoman Marilyn Kirkpatrick, D-North Las Vegas, co-sponsor of the bill, said that the tax currently brings in an estimated $137 million, most of which goes toward the state's General Fund. About $150,000 goes toward the Nevada Arts Council's budget, she said.

Burning Man officials believe state representatives are getting greedy, calling Kirkpatrick's bill "unbalanced and short-sighted."

According to Burning Man, the organization itself spends $11 million in Nevada annually, has vendor contracts with local businesses and is a strong supporter of arts around the state.

Burning Man participants contribute more than $40 million annually to the Nevada economy; they pay their share of sales and gas taxes, and they are tremendously supportive of local businesses, Graham said.

Burning Man's ticket admission revenue will not be taxed until 2016, even though the legislation technically goes into effect July 1 and will not begin taxing until Oct. 1, about a month after Burning Man has taken place. The event is from Aug. 30 to Sept. 7 this year.

"Burning Man already sold its tickets for this year. Anything that has already been sold does not apply," Kirkpatrick said.

Kirkpatrick said that she has been working on the bill for years due to the changing entertainment industry. When she first introduced the bill, Burning Man founder Larry Harvey suggested that Nevada might not be the best home for the event.

Kirkpatrick is unphased, she said.

Burning Man officials are reviewing the bill, figuring out what their next step will be.

"It's passed. Now we just have to take a good hard look at it," Graham said.

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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by Bless » Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:18 pm

At the risk of sounding like a Debbie Downer...

Paying taxes is a civil duty that should be celebrated. I thought some of the self-professed communists around here might support that sentiment.

State taxes support services that help the poor, young, elderly, disadvantaged, and infirm. Nevada has, unfortunately, decided to do away with its state income taxes and, as a result, faces a widening budget deficit. Perhaps not coincidentally, Nevada ranks last in terms of education. I don't think it's asking too much for burners to help contribute to other portions of the Nevada state economy which don't directly benefit from our week of fun each year.

Separately, to imply that "my dj's dick is bigger than your dj's" camps are to blame for an additional tax is absurd. Consider this: what if, this year, all the big sound camps disappeared from TTITD, but the level of ticket revenue grew. Do you think the legislature would still try to tax the event? Probably yes.

Or, what if this year, the event was completely free and there were no ticket sales whatever. The Org paid for all of the environmental remediation costs out of pocket. Would the legislature still try to tax the event? Probably not.
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by some seeing eye » Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:12 pm

Bless is correct, the state of NV under a Republican plan is increasing funding to the schools. A big combination bill did that this weekend including the BM tax, also covering Electric Daisyland and NASCAR.
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:16 am

Yeah yeah yeah


Keep telling yourself that.



I hope it lets you sleep at night.


I got no problem paying an extra 10% for schools.

My problem is i was right, and i want my "i told you so."


Bitches.
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by tamarakay » Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:31 am

you're right, you're right, you are always right.
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by Elderberry » Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:57 am

Bless wrote:At the risk of sounding like a Debbie Downer...

Paying taxes is a civil civic duty that should be celebrated. I thought some of the self-professed communists around here might support that sentiment.

State taxes support services that help the poor, young, elderly, disadvantaged, and infirm. Nevada has, unfortunately, decided to do away with its state income taxes and, as a result, faces a widening budget deficit. Perhaps not coincidentally, Nevada ranks last in terms of education. I don't think it's asking too much for burners to help contribute to other portions of the Nevada state economy which don't directly benefit from our week of fun each year.

Separately, to imply that "my dj's dick is bigger than your dj's" camps are to blame for an additional tax is absurd. Consider this: what if, this year, all the big sound camps disappeared from TTITD, but the level of ticket revenue grew. Do you think the legislature would still try to tax the event? Probably yes.

Or, what if this year, the event was completely free and there were no ticket sales whatever. The Org paid for all of the environmental remediation costs out of pocket. Would the legislature still try to tax the event? Probably not.
While I agree on the tax thing, I don't think it is Burning Man's "Civic duty" to pay for things that should be covered by taxing the people that live in the state and corporations that do business in the state appropriately to cover their expenses and have a surplus for emergencies.
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by Aurelia » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:00 am

The problem is the nation is seeming to be gone right

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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by ygmir » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:06 am

Elderberry wrote:
Bless wrote:At the risk of sounding like a Debbie Downer...

Paying taxes is a civil civic duty that should be celebrated. I thought some of the self-professed communists around here might support that sentiment.

State taxes support services that help the poor, young, elderly, disadvantaged, and infirm. Nevada has, unfortunately, decided to do away with its state income taxes and, as a result, faces a widening budget deficit. Perhaps not coincidentally, Nevada ranks last in terms of education. I don't think it's asking too much for burners to help contribute to other portions of the Nevada state economy which don't directly benefit from our week of fun each year.

Separately, to imply that "my dj's dick is bigger than your dj's" camps are to blame for an additional tax is absurd. Consider this: what if, this year, all the big sound camps disappeared from TTITD, but the level of ticket revenue grew. Do you think the legislature would still try to tax the event? Probably yes.

Or, what if this year, the event was completely free and there were no ticket sales whatever. The Org paid for all of the environmental remediation costs out of pocket. Would the legislature still try to tax the event? Probably not.
While I agree on the tax thing, I don't think it is Burning Man's "Civic duty" to pay for things that should be covered by taxing the people that live in the state and corporations that do business in the state appropriately to cover their expenses and have a surplus for emergencies.
I don't think it's asking too much for burners to help contribute to other portions of the Nevada state economy which don't directly benefit from our week of fun each year.
this is the thing,to me: "ask to contribute" sure, ask.........but compel, via tax? no. If you are so happy to do that, send them a check (not Misa, we want to keep her!! ), but don't say I should, because you think it's a good idea. Many people resist taxation, because of the waste. Agreeing there are good, and necessary programs provided by government, but feeling cutting the fat, would lower taxation significantly, allowing us to keep more of what we earn.
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by Zubeneschamali » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:28 am

I spent a year and a half of my life managing the implementation of a sales tax/VAT program for a ecommerce company. One thing I learned about sales tax is that it is purely bureaucratic by design and therefore is illogical. It is nothing more than ego and greed translated into law.

Any direct contribution by BMORG and Burners to the communities in Nevada have a greater impact to the people than any state sales tax systemized income distribution.

If I have to pay $425 next year for my $390 ticket, then maybe that $35 won't be spent in the local stores and small businesses in Nevada. Who really feels the pinch then? Oh, but its OK, dear Nevada resident, because that $ is going to be routed thru the state and will eventually benefit your schools and infrastructure.

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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by lucky420 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:51 am

There's plenty of regionals...
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:33 am

you're right, you're right, you are always right.



thats all i wanted.



so,



i'll go shut up now about the blatant re-framing of the argument.



i agree bless, it's those mean old Republicans, cutting budgets, while the Real Heroes, the Democrats are just doing the right thing.


shut up and take my money.
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by trilobyte » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:05 am

Simon, you were absolutely right in only the most obvious and anybody-could-guess sense... the state government is working to include more events into their entertainment tax. Considering that's how state governments have been operating for decades, it's only marginally better than predicting long winter nights and longer days in summer.

You were completely wrong in that it has nothing whatsoever to do with how sound camps operate or DJ lineups or any of that other stuff. A complete 100% wrong. It has nothing to do with lineups or camps or anything else. It's all about the money. Someone in NV government scratched their heads and reached behind the couch cushions looking for change, and they realized that if they amended an existing thing they could potentially get their hands on millions more.

That said, it is worth pointing out that this will not affect the 2015 event. While the law does go into effect in July, it only applies to taxable receipts on or after October 1. I'm sure Burning Man is reviewing the details and looking into their options moving forward.

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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by spacetime » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:38 am

trilobyte wrote:That said, it is worth pointing out that this will not affect the 2015 event. While the law does go into effect in July, it only applies to taxable receipts on or after October 1. I'm sure Burning Man is reviewing the details and looking into their options moving forward.
Thanks for clarifying this.

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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by Ratty » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:53 am

Hi Spacetime. It was GREAT to finally meet you at the East Bay Burner thing. Hope you get a ticket. See you at the Meet N Greet.
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Simon of the Playa
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:57 am

It's all about the money.

i agree wholeheartedly.
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by BoyScoutGirl » Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:25 am

I suppose the question is: How does the law in Nevada define "Live Entertainment"?

I asked the internet and wasn't surprised that the answer is" it's complicated." Have a look at http://tax.nv.gov/FAQs/Live_Entertainment_Tax___FAQ’s/ if you're interested. It includes comments on the non-profit status, etc.

One bit I find interesting: the legal definition of live entertainment for the purpose of the tax appears to explicitly exempt
Entertainment provided by a patron or patrons, including, without limitation, singing by patrons or dancing by or between patrons if they receive no compensation from any source for providing the entertainment.
But then this document (http://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocume ... mentid=221) has this to say about charging for access to live entertainment:
Is a fee collected to ride an elevator or escalator to a live entertainment facility an admission charge?
Typically, yes. Special consideration needs to be given to situations where the patron, by riding the escalator or elevator, may gain access to a live entertainment facility, or may choose to visit only facilities that do not offer live entertainment. For purposes of taxing the admission charge, no distinction shall be made as to whether the patron actually entered a facility with live entertainment or not. Therefore, all such elevator/escalator charges will be subject to the tax unless a separate admission charge must be paid in order to gain access to the live entertainment facility. (Posted 12/22/03)
When we buy a ticket, what are we really paying for? I consider the admittance ticket cost to cover infrastructure (comms, ESD, fire, health, etc.); it is my understanding that these monies are not used to fund live entertainers. As far as exceptions, I can think of the fireworks displays the BORG puts on throughout the week, notably immediately before Man Burn. However, pyrotechnics and the like aren't covered in the definition of "Live Entertainment." Some of the art grants might also fall under the category of ticket money going toward live performance, but only after having been "laundered" through a non-profit.

Hell, my own group, the Lamplighters, receives a lot of support directly from the BORG in terms of storage, power, etc. And we offer a spectacle. I suppose everyone's ticket cost goes to that, if very indirectly.

/armchair lawyering.

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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by FIGJAM » Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:53 am

That was my first thought.

If I'm entertaining myself or my friends as a gift, who gets taxed and why?
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by lucky420 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:58 am

if you throw a big ass party in the desert and have entertainment and charge admission to the big ass party.

that's why
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by Eric » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:22 am

I'm pretty sure the state will argue that since you need to be in possession of a ticket to get through the Gate, that ticket counts as an admission charge. I'm also pretty sure they would win on that argument, even though we the participants create our own entertainment.
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by some seeing eye » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:29 am

Yes complicated... First the law was just passed through the legislature on the weekend and are being signed this week. So Nevada informational websites are not updated yet for the bills. In the past, like before mid-year last year, the BM debate was framed under the live music tax law. That is why we were discussing it that way on ePlaya. That changed with the Republican governor's grand tax increase bargain in November which was designed to tax BM and NASCAR, among other things. Even if BM is not called out in the new law by name, the legislative record shows the intent to tax BM. So a court case by BMORG to reverse it is unlikely to be successful. But hey we can complain!
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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by Dr. Pyro » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:33 am

http://www.fa-mag.com/news/nevada-s-new ... section=43

Oh great. Now we're no better than "escort services". I can't believe Financial Advisor Mag (yes, I subscribe) actually printed this.

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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by Sham » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:55 am

I say we ban live music. I don't think DJ's are considered LIVE music--they're just playing from their MP3's. If they consider that live, then I say the DJ's should be banned from the event.
8)

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Re: Burning Man just got more expensive

Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:00 pm

hey maybe bringing in BIG NAME DJ's and ADVERTISING THE LINEUP has nothing to do with making BM a Live Venue...but it probably incvreased it's visibility ( i know, riiiight, how is that possible) by causing every EDM blog from here to Podunk to Reprint the Incredible Fucking Line-up from hell.

no...not at all..

you know, i'm 100% wrong....

of course, i said this a year ago, on that thread that's "not relevant" and dead..i won't post the link, something about line-ups.....


and yes, predicting the future is as easy as predicting the weather.

any schmuck can do that. :twisted:
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