The decline of BurningMan

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
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rodent
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Post by rodent » Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:22 am

Donita wrote:
Despite what you may have heard, BM is not a hippydippy love fest.
Little do you all know... Burner Hippies all over the world are gathering. Secretly. Planning. Plotting. We will rise up and we will have our hippiedippie lovefest!! And no one, NO ONE, will be able to stop us. Ha!
Does anyone want to tell him how little gasoline it would take...

:)

---
rodent (putting the eek in geek)

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Donita
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Post by Donita » Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:37 am

I totally agree. Everyone should be self reliant.

**winks back at the kitty, gives the secret sign right back**

upriver
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Post by upriver » Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:58 pm

When I read posts about Burning Man not being what it used to be, it almost always includes comments about how there is not enough art--REAL art, whatever that is. I wouldn't normally call myself an artist, though I would say I'm fairly creative. I wasn't at Burning Man back in the day, last year was my first time. Now with six months to go 'till the Burn, I fill my days working on my art projects--a funky rickshaw, bikes, costumes, stickers, and whatever fun little things that come to mind--things that I'm sure some people will define as "not real art, like the old days." But for my sake, I can't begin to express my gratitude for the inspiration that's come from my experience on the Playa. I wake up each day thinking about my projects and how I can share them with the community out there in the desert.

Maybe some people have seen enough and don't want to look any more. Maybe they don't want to be inspired. I experienced the most effective art I've ever encountered in 2004, because it left me conected with my own creativity that had been dormant since I left my childhood behind.

Thanks everyone for being a part of that. See ya on the playa.

e.
www.barefootboogie.net

mugafuga
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Bunt Out Implosion

Post by mugafuga » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:08 pm

Implosion of the event is inevitable. That is why there are regional burns. Find one close to you. They haven't been tainted by the spectators as bad as BM. Start your own party if you don't like the ones available.

:roll:

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moogafooga
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Rome

Post by moogafooga » Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:49 am

"The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of immoderate greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the cause of the destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon as time or accident and removed the artificial supports, the stupendous fabric yielded to the pressure of its own weight. The story of the ruin is simple and obvious: and instead of inquiring why the Roman Empire was destroyed we should rather be surprised that it has subsisted for so long."
- Edward Gibbon

kilngod
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Post by kilngod » Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:48 am

Small cities become big. Great cities become small. -- Heroditus (bastardized)

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Zane5100
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Post by Zane5100 » Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:21 am

Maybe some people have seen enough and don't want to look any more. Maybe they don't want to be inspired.
For more than a few people, it isn't that they've seen enough or don't want inspiration--it's their exposure to the processes and politics of what goes on behind the scenes of Burning Man (in particular, the culture of privilege that many think permeates the organization--the "Don't you know who I am?" and "Do what I say, not what I do." attitudes) that's soured them. Sometimes the sausage-making process gets to you after awhile, and you need to take a break from it--and for some people, that means getting as far away as possible from anything that sinks of playa dust.

Also, when idealism confronts politics, the conflict tends to result in some hurt feelings and disillusionment.
I experienced the most effective art I've ever encountered...
That's one of the things that keeps pulling many of us back, along with the friends we make.
middle-aged, wannabe-hipster, dilettante

Taz
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burn out

Post by Taz » Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:26 am

I think the fact that burning man keeps growing every year is testamony that it is not going to fade away. Things have always changed since the beginning. The first burners on the Nevada site ran doon buggies as fast as they could go. The expanding population and the inclusion of children put a stop to that. I think the prevailance of BM shows that it was anarchy that didn't work in a larger community and not bureaucracy.
As for the art. The quality wanes from year to year and of course that depends upon the viewer. The objective of BM to create a free environment has always been consistent. I think a lot of it has to do with money and safety.
As for participation, that's up to the theme camps to come up with ideas to get people involved. It's really hard to distinguish participant from spectators sometimes. Suppose you create an art piece. Yes it takes people to create art but don't you want people to admire(spectate) the art as well? The reason the Opera declined is because there were so many other theme camps competing with it. I will disagree with you that there are more spectators. Each year there is an increasing volunteer base for even infrastructure jobs- greeters, rangers, lamplighters, cafe etc.
I don't think people want to be just spectators, it's just they can't find a place where they fit. Again that's up to the theme camps to resolve.
I really think you are nostalgic. BM changes every year and according to Larry Harvey they are all temporary communities. That's the significance of the burning of the man. So go your own way, but I'm certain others will pick up and carry the spirit along. A body changes as it grows. You can't turn time back.

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Iago
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The process of burning out..

Post by Iago » Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:19 pm

Been doing the Bman since 98 and yes it changes every year. But I find that I seem to change faster than the event and will be an old fart at the age of 60 this year. When I was young, nothing could change or happen fast enough for me and now that I am old fucktard it seems to be going by faster than I want it to? All you can change is your perception. If you want to see shit, you will, or you can look at the flowers growing up from it... I have always had a good time there. So I'll be back to see how I have changed in the last year.. YMV

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d6
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Post by d6 » Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:50 pm

I agree with your post IAGO, and feel like it'd be nice if there were a
DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL
at least every now and again.

will be returning for year 6 to conduct further progress/stagnant tests.

d6,
robotronia
your witty rejoinder just flew over my head.....

no trust fund getting supply buying self-reliant non-bankrolled questionable artistic contributor sacrificing electronics at will build it destroy it clean it haul it financially uninterested uber-bot

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Ugly Dougly
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:29 am

Nothing wrong with starting your own event someplace else.

EricMagic
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Encourage Change Within - DO NOT Leave

Post by EricMagic » Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:54 am

Hey, Great Honesty and Interesting Viewpoints.

In regard to you comment about not coming back, please do not leave entirely, as I think some of your ideas are good and you can pursue your complaints from within the event, or even a protest inside. I agree with some of the things you indicated about the spectators, but I think some viewing, observing, and simply watching is fine and should encouraged to some extent. However, the only viewing actions should be downplayed and not so organized like going to a concert show, or a snobby night club, or attending a government facility that demands orderly citizens. I guess people sort of replicate what they know subconsciously, like a strict night clubs, or some orderly school play, or some amusement park. We need the experienced burners who really love spontaneity and participation, so please do not give up complete hope, and please raise this issue again if necessary.

For the BMan of 2004, I had a good time, but I also experienced really odd bureaucracy and overly controlling aspects, and I had to deal with many people who were caught up in a social hierarchy, pecking order sort of attitude. And yes some of the population seemed like mere tourists, some good, some hyper, and some very bad. In regard to the Art, there were many sandstorms that got in the way of many Art Installs. I was the lead for one Art Install, Oracle of Life-Aware Flag, that took much longer than expected due to not getting supplies in time, and not getting some help from certain people who did not show up, and one person left stuff at the gate for me, but no-one told me, which I only found out after I had to go back to Reno for other supplies. But despite all of the troubles and heartache, it was still a pretty good event; and I also met many great people, and high quality participants; and some great new Art from both experienced artists and brand new artists.

Maybe instead of $250 for a ticket, the Event Organizers should only require $100 plus some proof the person will participate, and she or he will protest any overly controlling aspect, or at least have some Spontaneity Participation Training; but would that new requirement be too controlling? When does a strong suggestion of less watching and more participation become over controlling itself? Could some types of viewing be considered participation? The silver lining of this problem mentioned, is that it brings up some serious questions, study, and sparks of contemplation about spectators, participation, cultural history of the BMan, preferred attitudes, different sub-cultures of the BMan, ideas of what could be done, and awareness.

Live Long Burners! Keep the Ideals Alive, Strike Up Conversations, and Participate, even when things seem to be going bad, The "Ultimate Burner" and Participator will Burn On Despite Obstacles; and will even continuing free expressions, non-traditional behavior in the Other World (Non-BM World).
<>
Relax, Be Bold, Dream, Live Large, Elevate
<>

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Apollonaris Zeus
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Re: Encourage Change Within - DO NOT Leave

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:33 am

EricMagic wrote:Hey, Great Honesty and Interesting Viewpoints.

In regard to you comment about not coming back, please do not leave entirely .
Ignore them, they'll be back soon. they always say that, then they come back and set new standards for others to follow.

AIIZ

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HughMungus
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Re: Encourage Change Within - DO NOT Leave

Post by HughMungus » Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:07 pm

EricMagic wrote:Maybe instead of $250 for a ticket, the Event Organizers should only require $100 plus some proof the person will participate
How about instead of $250/ticket we either limit the number of tickets sold each year (which would mean being able to estimate costs and pay less for things we need), or we cut back on stuff that's not necessary: stop funding public art, stop building bigger center camps, stop building bigger bases for "the man", stop sending out a survival guide for every single ticket (vs. sending one per ORDER and only if requested), stop handing out a stack of MOOPY "information" to every PERSON who arrives (vs. just giving one per car or as requested), stop offering discount tickets (such that the rest of us have to help fund those who "can't" afford to go to Burning Man). How about instead of changing the infrastructure requirements every year, we keep them the same so that they will, over time, decrease in cost (because we wouldn't be spending a lot of time trying to re-invent the wheel and because, again, we'd be able to better estimate costs AND re-use what we used last year). I would love to see us get back to basics, where what we're paying for is the essentials and everything else is created by the particpants (instead of FUNDED by participants).

I don't mean this as a criticism of how things are now as much as a suggestion. I am deeply thankful and appreciative of those who make the infrastructure happen. I just wish there was less of it.

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montana wildhack
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the decline of burning man

Post by montana wildhack » Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:38 pm

i am a virgin this year, so it will all be new to me! and to be completely honest, i feel so amazed that i get to attend and experience things that are so creatively HUGE...that all this talk of 'oh, it used to be great but now it's just shite' pretty much just roll right offa me. i want to let what i experience envelope me, and play with the not-inconsequential forces that will unleashed .

oh, and i'm really looking forward to getting naked.

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the fire elf
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...

Post by the fire elf » Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:53 pm

i don't see an end to the event...

it is undergoing re-incarnation...

why would you end re-incarnation?
instantiate vacuous truth

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the fire elf
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...

Post by the fire elf » Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:25 pm

burnt out = stuck in a rut
instantiate vacuous truth

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the fire elf
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...

Post by the fire elf » Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:31 pm

bureaucracy is a fair step away from fascism...

the next step in the right direction would be _______...

(participate)
instantiate vacuous truth

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julie_c
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Post by julie_c » Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:23 pm

2002 was GREAT, 2003 was even GREATER!!!! but 2004 was like a great big RAVE with bad booze, a drug "let's go buy some E'' fest, too, too many poseurs... tried to tell the newbies camped next to us, You get caught buying drugs son, you're going down, babe...shoulda brought your own.

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HughMungus
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Post by HughMungus » Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:50 pm

julie_c wrote:2002 was GREAT, 2003 was even GREATER!!!! but 2004 was like a great big RAVE with bad booze, a drug "let's go buy some E'' fest, too, too many poseurs... tried to tell the newbies camped next to us, You get caught buying drugs son, you're going down, babe...shoulda brought your own.
Hey sometimes you find the real people and sometimes you don't. Sometimes you just find robots. :P Fuckit. Want to play again? Insert another quarter.

robotland
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Post by robotland » Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:22 am

Permit me a musical analogy...Personally, I love all kinds of music- I literally can't think of a genre of music that doesn't have SOMETHING in it for me to enjoy. Some I enjoy more than others. Paradoxically, I think that MOST of any kind of music is CRAP. Same holds for ART...and, although it sounds awfully misanthropic, I'm afraid it's true for PEOPLE, too. But it's worth digging in the shit, knowing in your heart that where there's so much shit, there's GOTTA be a pony.

Dang. Takes a Real Monday for me to write stuff like that! I'm not sure if I'm a Pessimistic Optimist or an Optimistic Pessimist....
Howdy From Kalamazoo

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ZaphodBurner
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Re: the decline of burning man

Post by ZaphodBurner » Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:08 pm

montana wildhack wrote:i am a virgin this year, so it will all be new to me! and to be completely honest, i feel so amazed that i get to attend and experience things that are so creatively HUGE...that all this talk of 'oh, it used to be great but now it's just shite' pretty much just roll right offa me. i want to let what i experience envelope me, and play with the not-inconsequential forces that will unleashed .

oh, and i'm really looking forward to getting naked.
MH: I like your attitude. My name is Gatt and I am not a virgin Burner, but 12 of the 15 in our camp are, and their enthusiasm makes me want to raise flags and shoot off rockets.

I would like to invite you to come by the Zaphod camp for a drink at the Infinite Improbability Root Beer Saloon. Ask for me or leave a message at the bar or chat up a campmate and we will gift you.

Cheers. The burn will be awesome!

\v|v/
-gatt
ZaphodBurns!
http://www.zaphodburns2005.org
"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

Kinetic IV
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Post by Kinetic IV » Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:28 pm

Commerce. Already reported in case studies.
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... 669#168669

Don't even bother with the link as there's much better products out there.
K-IV
~~~~
Thank you for over 7 years of eplaya memories. I have asked Emily Sparkle to delete my account and I am gone. Goodbye and Goodluck to all of you! I will miss you!

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diane o'thirst
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Post by diane o'thirst » Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:01 pm

I'm not going this year. This would have been my eighth Burn, but that's going to have to wait.

My reasons for not going? They vary from health reasons (colitis = chronic diarrhea =dehydration + Playa dehydration on top of that = not a good idea), lack of funds, some personal disgruntlement with the direction which includes but is not limited to a dearth of art...

And the biggest factor: Evolution.

The event has gone in one direction, I'm being drawn in another. It's entirely possible I won't do the desert event again and I accept that. It was a great seven years and I'm not sorry for it. I've learnt that growth is good and if you grow away from something you loved, that's okay too, trust and go with it.

I might walk alongside for awhile. I might turn a corner and never be seen again. No regrets, no parting curses. Life is change. Change is good. [Shouldering bindlestiff and walking on]
[url=http://tinyurl.com/245sagf][img]http://tinyurl.com/2bbr28j/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/23753ws][img]http://tinyurl.com/2auqebj/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/m4y82q][img]http://tinyurl.com/l56rdn/.gif[/img][/url]

MoisturePup
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Ultimately...

Post by MoisturePup » Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:32 am

diane o'thirst wrote:I'm not going this year. This would have been my eighth Burn, but that's going to have to wait.

My reasons for not going? They vary from health reasons (colitis = chronic diarrhea =dehydration + Playa dehydration on top of that = not a good idea), lack of funds, some personal disgruntlement with the direction which includes but is not limited to a dearth of art...

And the biggest factor: Evolution.

The event has gone in one direction, I'm being drawn in another. It's entirely possible I won't do the desert event again and I accept that. It was a great seven years and I'm not sorry for it. I've learnt that growth is good and if you grow away from something you loved, that's okay too, trust and go with it.

I might walk alongside for awhile. I might turn a corner and never be seen again. No regrets, no parting curses. Life is change. Change is good. [Shouldering bindlestiff and walking on]
Ultimately I think what this entire discussion comes down to, from the very first "I'm leaving" post, to the more positive "I'm parting ways for now posts" is that the event has changed from what it was to what I experienced as my first burn last year.

I had the most incredible experience of my entire life in 2004, and I can't even imagine that it could have been better. But, apparently, for some people last year was a very weak year as far as the event goes.

What it all really comes down to though is that this is our event. Each of us owns it because we're the ones who make it. Sure, the BMorg provides us with a certain amount of infrastructure and provides a few cool structures for us to enjoy on the playa (and porta potties!!!), but that is such an insignificantly small portion of what makes up the rest of the city. We are the ones who must create the city, with all it's color, and light, and noise, and friendliness, and most importantly the Art.

We can blame the spectators, but they're just human bodies walking around, and for the most part easily ignored. They camp beyond the Theme camp streets back where most of us rarely venture. It doesn't matter if there's 1 spectator or 10 million spectators with 1000 ring roads going back for 20 miles, the center of the city and the empty playa where the temple normally sits well always be the same size and should always be full of art by those who do participate. That space doesn't change in size, but our contributions do. Either we contribute enough to make the center of the city have that greatness that it should, or we don't. It's up to each of us as participants to make the city great. The spectators really don't matter.... and some of them might even be converted.

We can only expect so much from the BMorg. They are there to make the event happen, but really when each of us thinks about what makes the event great, it's not the BMorg, it's each of us who brings something that builds our community.

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stuart
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Post by stuart » Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:36 am

your life travels in a vector
BM travels in a vector

at some point those vectors cross/converge and if you are fortunate enough you attend the event during that conjunction. For many the paths eventually diverge just as they previously converged.
call me baby

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diane o'thirst
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Post by diane o'thirst » Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:34 pm

Well, I was pretty dismayed at all the bars last year. It looked like every other camp was either a bar or a deejay booth or both. I said, "I didn't drive 450 miles one way, dragging 1500 pounds of gear and supplies, just to get drunk. I can do the pub crawl thing back home. Come on, people, we can do better than this!" That was probably one of the roadsigns telling me of the impending fork in the road.

I am encouraged at the projects I'm reading about, seems a lot of those freshmen last year got a fire in their belly, too. More power to 'em, wish I could see it. Alas, not in the cards.
[url=http://tinyurl.com/245sagf][img]http://tinyurl.com/2bbr28j/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/23753ws][img]http://tinyurl.com/2auqebj/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/m4y82q][img]http://tinyurl.com/l56rdn/.gif[/img][/url]

Lady V
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museings

Post by Lady V » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:43 pm

Hi!!! My love and I decided to come to B Man (we are virgins) about a week ago. We figure we'll open camp, at least at first. We've been seriously thinking about it since March, and finally committed. Since then, I've been reading Everything. This Entire Forum. Threads far and wide. I have a friend whose been to/participated greatly in BM every year of the past many many and I've talked to him quite a lot... and I have gone from excitement and wonder to feeling sad and somewhat frightened. So maybe this will give some more insight into why BM is attracting who it is attracting now.

I can feel from reading this board that things have changed at BM, and the ways in which they are different. I wonder if the longtimers are going to jump ship and move to Canada :) or stick around and help usher in rebirth. I see this from a sort of Jungian POV... masculinity = everything associated w/men throughout time and across cultures; femininity = all associated w/women throughout time and across cultures--we all have both within us, lalala...

My sadness comes from the feeling that B Man (like the US...) has overloaded itself on masculinity: activity, heirarchy, structure, noise, disconnection, experience, physicality (all of which are needed in life)... and the feminine is somehow narrowing or being overcome: harmony, emotionality, relatedness, quiet, art, receptivity (all of which are also needed in life).

As a woman, I want more options. I don't want to go out there and feel uncomfortable unless I'm in an old MTV video or Girls Gone Wild video. I want to be my feminine self; not a masculine vision of my feminine self. I also really want to connect with other feminine women who, sure, can wear a lace teddy or thong or nothing on the playa but maybe (or also) want to do something a little more daring than that.

Of course, I have never been to BM. Maybe all that I have read is just an unusual sliver. I guess my point is that people like me may be turning away from BM now because they are getting the impression that the true feminine has gone missing. I know a couple of places people write 'this is not a rave' or 'BM is not all about sex' but really, people, it is overwhelmingly rave/drugs-sex in what's been written. And I seem to be the only one I talk to whose never been to B Man who knows it has anything to do with art...

Whatever it is we end up bringing/giving at B Man, it will probably have something to do with stirring up the feminine. ~:)

~Lady V

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diane o'thirst
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Post by diane o'thirst » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:51 pm

Lady V — it's activity, but definitely get involved in Critical Tits. Some people see it as egregious spectatorship but nobody ever asked the girls ;) And there's something about having a row of people lined up for two miles on both sides, telling you you're beautiful :)
[url=http://tinyurl.com/245sagf][img]http://tinyurl.com/2bbr28j/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/23753ws][img]http://tinyurl.com/2auqebj/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/m4y82q][img]http://tinyurl.com/l56rdn/.gif[/img][/url]

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diane o'thirst
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Post by diane o'thirst » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:53 pm

Dammit. I wish we could use the emoticons from the Pack board on this site...
[url=http://tinyurl.com/245sagf][img]http://tinyurl.com/2bbr28j/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/23753ws][img]http://tinyurl.com/2auqebj/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/m4y82q][img]http://tinyurl.com/l56rdn/.gif[/img][/url]

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