What do you hate about the rave scene in BRC?

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
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MissJele
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Post by MissJele » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:12 pm

It was good to read your reply, Ivy. No offense taken here at all. That sounds great what that one camp did and very nice. It was really hard, this past year, to get everyone in my camp on the same page at the same time. Some wanted to be off and exploring while others take photographs and did this mostly. We couldn't even stick together for the night of the Burn! Someone always wanted to do something else and someone was always trying to round up other people. It was hard. I think, in a nutshell, our camp members just have too much independence and varied ideas to really come together to do something as joint whole, bottom line. Maybe that's it. With a sound camp, you can be there when you want and leave when you want to go somewhere else. And when no one is around to spin, there won't be any music. But we will have rugs and mats and pillows galore for people to rest on and we will again have a mister and a huge trampoline that was a great sucess and extremely interactive, as well as one of the best clothing exchanges out there which constantly brings people by and causes a lot of interaction with both us and others.

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Ivy
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Post by Ivy » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:33 pm

With a sound camp, you can be there when you want and leave when you want to go somewhere else. And when no one is around to spin, there won't be any music. But we will have rugs and mats and pillows galore for people to rest on
This makes me a little sad. It appears the reasoning behind the sound camp is not becuase you want to do a sound camp--but becuase it's the easiest way for you to contribute.

It kind of reminds me of the people who want to build art cars becuase it's easier to get around the city rather than becuase they want to create a piece of art.

Again, no personal offense intended, but maybe if your camp isn't interested in the same things you might not do a big project together? Perhaps you can each contribute in smaller ways. (Doesn't mean you can't all camp together in the same location.)




I think a majority of people coming to BM know about "no spectoators" and "participation" and want to contribute something, and they want to contribute something good and worthwhile. I think a lot of people (myself included) struggle with exactly what that means. Some people say "but I'm not *artisitc,* I can't amke a big piece of art." Some people say, " my song/dance/performance/smile is my gift," instead of gifting something tangible. SOme people make food and pass it out. (You can find examples of all these ideas discussed on the eplaya). I think a lot of people are intimidated by the concept of community contribution, consciously or sub-. And I'm pretty sure that people also want to have fun (I know I'm included in this one). For a lot of people, this is their vacation a dn they don't want to work or be glued to a camp 24/7 etc. and those things are completely understandable.
I think the balance has shifted. Right now, the scale hangs more towards the "I'd on;t want to work/be tied down" end. I think this may be partically where the ideas of the "ravers eroding BM" comes in because people dancing all night are part of the vacation/out having fun crowd. Like i said, nothing wrong with that, just stands out more right now.

If we're looking for ways to "save" BM (as we have been discussing in several threads, sorry for the crossover but I can't seem to separate this one and a few of the other similar ones), again, I think it's focus. Swinging back into balance. Swing too far and you don't get the "fun vacation" time and then I wouldn't want to go either.

Focus is an individual thing. Every attendee would be charged with looking at themself and their motvation and figure out the best way to contribute--not the easiest way. The most meaningful way, both for the individual and the community.

I fully 100% believe that if this focus is lost then BM (as most of us know and like it, otherwise what aer we debating) will be lost, too. Which may or may not happen. But I'm trying.

Again, no personal offense intended MissJele, in fact, I thank you for posting perfect examples for me to bounce my ideas off.

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:38 pm

Ivy wrote:Can send you their email if you want or I'm pretty sure they have a web address listed under theme camps.
Oh I went direct to the web address. IF I don't here back I may ask for an Ivy nudge.
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tonytohono
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This message is for IVY

Post by tonytohono » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:40 pm

I dunno about you Ivy, but when I do something I do it my own way. My own way may contain similarities to someone else's approach, but it is going to differ in many other ways. That is what I like to think of as diversity. Just because someone plans on doing something that sounds similar to something that has already been done doesn't mean you should dismiss it as more of the same. I dunno, to me that makes me think shallow.

Yeah sure, if you could come up with something totally new and inspiring like the jewelry making camp, which incidentally has been done many times as well, that would be great. It's not likely that it hasn't been thought of though, and in most cases at least an attempt at execution. The point is superior execution.

Even if it was just like everyone else's party, when I showed up it would turn into something totally different. Why? Because I would be there. I guess if everyone who showed up was flat and boring, and expecting more of the same, then we might be in trouble, huh? The strength of a negative personality is the most dangerous thing that can ever happen to any situation at BM IMO.

It's not the world.... it's what you make of it.

MissJele
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Post by MissJele » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:53 pm

"This makes me a little sad. It appears the reasoning behind the sound camp is not becuase you want to do a sound camp--but becuase it's the easiest way for you to contribute."

:(

This makes me a little sad that you think this, actually. Since I've gotten back from BM I have spent a lot of time making contacts with local fabric and outlet stores to try and find some cheap material to make all the blankets and pillows and mattress covers that we will need for our gypsy-styled camp. It is not easy by any means. My sewing machine will be whirring from now until next summer! My gift is sewing and that is my contribution. It's not an easy one, but it is the one I know how to do best and the one that I feel will be the most used and needed. Imagine walking into a nice shade structure in the heat of the day and lying down on a big mattress with fluffy pillows and a mister to cool you off. Sounds pretty damn nice, if you ask me. Anyways, happy Halloween and be well! Jele

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Post by dman » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:10 pm

from little acorns....
"Yes, but is it art?" "No, Art is over there, on the couch."

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Ivy
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Post by Ivy » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:53 pm

Tony--

I'm not asking anyone to be original or come up with some stupendously different idea. I don't really believe there is such a thing as "original." Most everything has been done before. The trick is, like what you said, to "put your own spin on it." What I am suggesting is to put your own spin on it by more than just being there (like your party example). But by doing more.

The jewelry making camp was not intended as an example of originality. It was intended to ilustrate thre process of "doing more." the first year, they simply gave out necklaces. the second year, they expouned upon that to allow others to come and make their own necklaces. Going further. Never meant to imply it was somehow a different or unique idea.

Jele, all we have here on this forum is each other's words. From the way your post was written, it sounded like a sound camp was being done becuase it was the easiest way to contibute. that *concept* makes me sad. Wasn't meant to be a reflection on your personal feelings towards the camp, although it may have been intended to amke you think about your personal feelings toward your camp. I think your contribution is good and I can totally empathize with your feeling about sewing skills. It often seems that it is a very "off-playa" thing yet so importnant while there. hard to reconcile sometimes, i know.
What I am humbly suggesting (and you can take it or leave it) is that you think about your project (i.e., sewing pillows). It is a good project. A good contribution. Now, think about one way you can make it "more." More interactive. More community oriented. Just a brainstrom, not saying that you will ever do any of these things. just an idea for you to think about. Humor me, if you will. It can be something simple or totally outrageous, don't be constrained by your means or budget or feasibily, right now we're just brainstrorming.

MissJele
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Post by MissJele » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:57 pm

Thank you. I very much appreciate your honesty and humility and free-flowing thoughts. There is definitely much to thing of here.

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Post by blyslv » Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:04 pm

Dancing is participation. But I think there are degrees of it. The belly dancers I know have worked long and hard at their art. Somebody who downs a few red bulls and vodka or strange and terrible combinations of wonderful new molecules so they can herky-jerk all night is participating, but to a much lesser degree.

So what? Many people might think that whatver the fuck I did to participate was pissant and piddily. This conversation is difficult, but worthwhile.
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mowgli
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Post by mowgli » Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:53 pm

having been initiated into the Burning Man community so recently, i'm really happy to see the amount of love that all of you feel for this event. I know I posted a similar sentiment in a former post, but seeing the amount of emotion ad thought that has gone into so many of you'r satements just makes me very happy and hopeful for the future.

After i returned home from BM this year and realized how much I was affected and how much I really loved the BM experience I was, like I think so many others, struck with some fear and anxiety that the event would change or even end just after I found it. Something like realizing you've fallin head over heals for another soul and the anxiety of possible loss that accompanies that feeling.

Anyway, i finally see that this event has, is, and will change just as all other living things have in the course of history. As Burning Man is a living breathing thing i imagie it will evolve by trial and error. I'm just happy that so many intelligent creative people will e the ones that hae the final say in what direction it moves. Thanks guys and girls. I can't wait to learn so much more from you in the days leading up tp Aug 2005 and on the playa next. See ya, lots of love.

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mowgli
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Post by mowgli » Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:56 pm

After rereading that last post, I realize that proofreading is a very important habit :D Sorry for the typos

talking_sausage
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Post by talking_sausage » Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:43 pm

Anyone too concerned should get a piece of astroturf and a lawnchair. One could set up their astroturf in the middle of the dance floor, sit down in the chair wearing only boxer shorts, and constantly shake your fist and yell:

"You ravers stay off my lawn!"

Growing up, this old guy on my street succesfully used this technique all the time.

but then again, we didn't really have raves on his lawn to begin with.


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Post by sparkletarte » Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:14 pm

What do I hate about it? All the complaining and whining after BM. I think next year I'll make a point to recruit more 'ravers', although they would really just be people who like to dance to electronic music, just because.

MissJele
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Post by MissJele » Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:08 pm

Thank you, Mr. Sausage Man, for saying something lighthearted and funny today. It brought some humor to the otherwise saddest day this country has seen in a couple of years. You rock and I like the whole astroturf idea. It cracked me up. Love, Jele










SHAKE YO' ASS...SHOWEM' WHAT YOUR MADE OF!!

talking_sausage
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Post by talking_sausage » Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:32 pm

Thank you, but will you like my idea so much when I am in your camp demanding that you stay off my lawn?

Give me a camp name and I am there. Don't worry, I don't think my lawn will be too big.
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tonytohono
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Post by tonytohono » Wed Nov 03, 2004 3:26 pm

Ivy, just because something has been done before, doesn't mean it can't be done again in its own original manner.

But I do get what you are saying. What I am saying is I am going to have the best time I can, and by doing that most likely the energy is going to have its own impact on those around me. I don't want to walk into a place and drag it down. I want to walk in and bring it a little burst of life, and hopefully it will breed and mulitply like little bunny rabbits.

lol.

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playasnake
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Post by playasnake » Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:05 pm

tonytohono wrote:hopefully it will breed and mulitply like little bunny rabbits.
quick. someone call animal control
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Re: What do you hate about the rave scene in BRC?

Post by MoisturePup » Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:30 pm

mowgli wrote:Im just curious. I kinda like the all night clubs. Although, it would be very nice to have a few more alternatives in the line of dance and music, but thats completly up to the participants to make that happen now isnt it? Personally I think more Jazz clubs would rock. More funk and soul would be fun as well. Especially at the decibal levels that the Techno is pumped at.

Anyway, I thought I'd start this thread so that all of you who think that rave clubs and music suck at BM could tell everyone why they suck instead of just whining about it.
SO RANT AWAY!!!!
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Post by Matthew James » Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:10 pm

I got tired off only hearing breaks and psy. I am a techno producer/dj and was greatly pained by the lack of my technolust's ability to be resolved. I am trying to figure out how to bring a sound system for '05.
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Gothalot
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Spikes Vampire Bar

Post by Gothalot » Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:05 am

If you are tired of the rave thing try Spikes Vampire Bar. O4 had a great smallish bar there in Centercamp and it got good reviews. Mind you I bartended it and I pour a mean pint of blood. Come on down for Spikes Vampire Bar 05 if you need a change of pace or just want to be bitten!

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Re: What do you hate about the rave scene in BRC?

Post by MoisturePup » Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:34 am

mowgli wrote:Im just curious. I kinda like the all night clubs. Although, it would be very nice to have a few more alternatives in the line of dance and music, but thats completly up to the participants to make that happen now isnt it? Personally I think more Jazz clubs would rock. More funk and soul would be fun as well. Especially at the decibal levels that the Techno is pumped at.

Anyway, I thought I'd start this thread so that all of you who think that rave clubs and music suck at BM could tell everyone why they suck instead of just whining about it.
SO RANT AWAY!!!!
I HATE OLD TIMERS RANTING ABOUT RAVERS. That's what I hate about the rave scene.

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...

Post by Dr Feltersnatch » Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:14 pm

Not a fucking thing.
You need chaos in your soul to give birth to a dancing star.

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Post by 4caminos » Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:59 pm

There's nothing wrong with rave camps that a little Live Banjo can't fix.

I did a little Live Banjo gifting last year and it felt good.
Real good.

4Caminos

chineseobelisk
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Post by chineseobelisk » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:39 am

while hanging out at uber carney thats all there was.
while watching two musicians at center camp around two am, thats all there was.
while watching an awesome band (somewhere) thats all there was.

I guess my point is that there is so much going on at any given time, that you can focus on anything. If your desire is to focus on something that you don't like, well, that's your perogative.

personally, as a forty two year old white guy with several ski/snowboard related knee surguries under my belt, while I am still pretty gracefull on a board, my two feet often betray me when trying simply to walk let alone dance. toward that end, a little night music while on a roll can be a lot of fun, 120 bpm? no problem!

also, the difference between loud music in an enclosed space and the kind of LOUD you can get away with on the playa is sensational. the way the base washes around you and dissapears into the desert instead of hitting your chest in an oppressive way? whoa.

I would never consider myself a raver (although we did throw some after hours wharehouse parties in Toronto back in the eighties, we called them speak easy's then) -however it is nice to be able to dance once in awhile and I would miss the inclusion of that sort of venue at BM.
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III
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Post by III » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:45 am

>dissapears into the desert

itym "goes on to annoy everyone else who can't get away from it." it's not so much that there isn't anything else, as that it stays with you like mark hinkley going after jodi foster..
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III
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Post by III » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:46 am

errr, john hinkley. now i owe an apology to xaradaddy too. whoops.
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chineseobelisk
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Post by chineseobelisk » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:46 am

oh, p.s. -in the interest of diversity we are trying to put together a sort of future primitive punked up zigfield follies meets industrial kodo drummers type performance for next year.

(but can you dance to it?)
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chineseobelisk
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Re: What do you hate about the rave scene in BRC?

Post by chineseobelisk » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:49 am

[quote=

I HATE OLD TIMERS RANTING ABOUT RAVERS. That's what I hate about the rave scene.[/quote]

hmm, nice work.
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Shinxy
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Post by Shinxy » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:57 pm

Honestly I just think it's a generation gap.

It doesn't matter though, because whatever you want you can find. Perhaps part of radical self-reliance should be "mind your own business". It's presumptuous to want people to like what you like. Do your own thing and others will do theris and we will live in harmony.
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philosopher
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Post by philosopher » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:12 am

I'm not sure about the generation gap idea, Shinxy. Just anecdotally: While my hair is mostly gray, it's only a couple of years since I was commercially hosting or co-producing "dance parties" (until local police developed a keener appreciation for the fine art of euphemism and I had to improve the cash flow anyway).

My first year at Burning Man, 2002, I camped at the outer edge of BRC where there was a lot of music. To me, Burning Man couldn't be separated from the incessant beat because that's just the way it was. It was like Mama's heart going at 120 bpm, reassuring in its own way. The whole next year, I kept myself in BRC space by listening to electronica.

Since then, I've camped at Center Camp and in a quiet mid-town place. I don't have to listen to electronica or visit the website to maintain "burner mind" anymore, but both of these things are welcome touchstones. I now think of the whole event as a rave scene on some level, even the silence of the temple burn.

A lot of people seem to come to BRC consciously or unconsciously expecting the good old days or suburban convenience or whatever. Those old-timers who developed a taste for the incongruity of tuxedos and martinis on the playa had an interesting thing going, but a whole lot of creativity has exploded between then and now.

As for me, I am ready for whatever shows up in BRC except spectators and narrow-mindedness. Even if I don't get my personal wish for a camp that alternately loops Barry Ryan's "Eloise" and Dexy's Midnight Runners' "C'mon Eileen" 24 hours a day, the overflowing music (as long as it's really music, and not some guy shouting profanities at me) will still be OK.

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