Accept Burning Man......

sonic · Post by **sonic** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:15 pm

It seems that a lot of people on the e-Playa are down on Burning Man...... from reading other threads... there are people who don't like the rave scene, don't like the regulations on the art, think there's not enough art, don't like the way the man "never works right", think there are too many people, not enough people participating, etc.

And some of the people are trying to change it.

I'm saying, for me, BM is all about acceptance and community. I accept that there are parts of BM that I don't participate in. I accept that they are there and that other burners enjoy them. I accept that BM will evolve and change and it's only natural that it grows. I know that people are not perfect and if the man doesn't burn "right", that's ok. They gave it their all I'm sure. And I still have a great time.

I love BMand everything about it. I love that it exists and it's the one place I can go and play for a week and do things and be things I can't do or be anywhere else.

I don't think BM will work well as a democracy and I think the BM staff are doing a great job at creating this event where everyone can come and be whomever they want. That's what it's about after all; self-expression and the freedom to express yourself in any way you desire.

All the whining and complainging and what not is saying that BM in an imperfect event and it should be improved. I disagree. I feel that BM is perfect the was it was, the way it is, and the way it will be in the future. It is what it is, like you are who you are. I accept you for who you are, and I accept BM for what it is...... an event that is for everyone to enjoy and experience in their own way.

To me, this, the freedom of self-expression and acceptance, is the true spirit of Burning Man, not the complaining and whining that I'm seeing here.

Just my opinion.

Do you agree with me? Disagree? Care to share your thoughts?

III · Post by **III** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:27 pm

>I feel that BM is perfect the was it was, the way it is, and the way it will be in the future.

even if the whiners get their way?

my take - there are those who don't like where it's going, and perceive that they, as members of the community, have some input over how their experience is shaped. others, for their own probably just as valid reasons, are perfectly happy with where it's been going and would like to see that continue. there are enough of the latter that i don't think things will change, and there will be enough happy people from the event that the few hundred malcontents can safely be ignored.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:12 pm

Waaauuugghhh.... I'm a fragile flower and my psyche hurts.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:28 pm

ITYM
except burning man

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:31 pm

I was gonna say that resistance is futile but I thought it a bit cliche'.

III · Post by **III** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 4:05 am

itym "futeless"

GlowScreen · Post by **GlowScreen** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:14 pm

[quote="sonic"]It seems that a lot of people on the e-Playa are down on Burning Man...... from reading other threads... there are people who don't like the rave scene, don't like the regulations on the art, think there's not enough art, don't like the way the man "never works right", think there are too many people, not enough people participating, etc. "

I think that this is a case of people being vocal when they feel something is wrong and so it gives a false impression that they are in the majority.

amy

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:03 pm

sonic wrote: That's what it's about after all; self-expression and the freedom to express yourself in any way you desire.

Even if my for of expression is to incinerate all of BRC with a nuclear bomb? Or write my name in the Playa with maching gun bullets? Or spray paint over other people's art as "expression"? Or burn other people's art?

I hear what you are meaning to say, but there are some realities that get in the way of your "Nirvana".

What happens if people keep putting un-crap in the JOTS? (most likely the end of the event). No amount of philosophizing or rationalizing will make that go away. We either stop putting un-crap in the JOTS, start our own JOTS (and deal with all the crap that goes with it), or say good by to Burningman. Would you say that all of the talk and effort (here and elsewhere) dealing with the JOTS issue has been a waste of time? That it would have all worked out ok in the end without that effort or talk? I don't think so...

The Art issue is less black-n-white, but some see it as just as serious to the future of BM. The same with music, mutant vehicles, sex camps, kids, etc, etc.

Besides, Eplaya is the same 5 people (and their socks), so what does it matter?

andi · Post by **andi** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:46 pm

Every year there are always tired old burners who proclaim "Burning Man is dead!" They leave, some come back later. But I find the most interesting post-playa freak-out was this year's. I think it is all really about how the demography of BRC is changing, the San Francisco majority has been eroding and you are starting to see more people from all over. I think what's really going on is that there are certain people who feel like Burning Man is losing it's identity (and are willing to employ drastic measures like splitting the community to "fix what's broken"), most like it just fine, and some who would like to see what we created growing far outside of the Black Rock Desert.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:13 am

Kush mir in tokhes!

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:38 am

Was it "Badger" who said "It's just a fucking camping trip"?
It kind of is...

TheJudge · Post by **TheJudge** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:54 am

I personally like the fact that the man never burns exactly as planned. Chaos should be something that is represented out there just as much as art and all the other ethos. The man refusing to go up like a Super Bowl halftime show is the icing on the cake.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:07 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:Was it "Badger" who said "It's just a fucking camping trip"?
It kind of is...

No, and the proper quote is "It's just a fucking, camping, trip."

The mind is a terrible thing.

4caminos · Post by **4caminos** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:27 pm

Andi from HI wrote:

Every year there are always tired old burners who proclaim "Burning Man is dead!"

Andi, I'm fixin' to kick yer ass.
Your "SF-centric, old burn-outs, not-evolving with the event" rhetoric is rubbing me, dude.
As you may or may not recall, I've been attending since the late '50's, when Larry and I were both 9 years old. I'm still going, still digging it and still participating.

I did notice a strange feeling this year, though, seriously. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it, or I, felt a little dis-connected. The reasons for this have already been explored at length by better minds than I, but it ain't just old burner-itis.
I'm going to participate in BORG2 and see what happens, and not just to help "split the community up".

So, come by 4Caminos Camp so I can kick yer ass and play you some banjo.
You do like banjo, don't you? Fuckin' hawaiians...

4Caminos

andi · Post by **andi** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:22 pm

MY MY! The language! What will the children think? Whatever happened to Radical Inclusion and respect? I guess that is just another one of Larry's nefarious plots.

What's wrong with telling the truth? Truth not fit with your view of the universe? That's your problem not mine, but if it makes you feel better you can just rant at me. Every year there are always burners who proclaim BM dead and they leave, it is just a fact, and this has absolutely nothing to do with Borg2, you brought that up I did not. Man you guys are sensitive, I must be pressing on a nerve. Seems no matter what I say one of you guys are going to jump all over me, twisting my words around to make me look like a demon, then attempt to insult me and the people of Hawaii. Is this your idea of what Burning Man has lost and you want to regain? Keep it up, you are really showing your true colors.

4caminos, I agree with you, I too have been feeling the shift over the past couple of years on the playa. Personally I think it has more to do with changing demographics with a larger population of newbies. I saw a lot of "Burning Man entitlement", you know where random people will demand a gift and curse you out when you balk (my friend calls this the "Take Economy"). And whenever I talk to any random person who has not been to BRC 9 times out of 10 they say "oh yeah that big party in the desert". I am very excited by the Borg2 project but amping up art on the playa will only put a band-aid on bigger problem, in MY opinion.

People don't play the banjo here, it's the slack key guitar. And I am afraid I can't make that appointment to beat the snot out of you, hope you are not too disappointed. Odd numbered years I am going to stay here and produce our own Labor day event for the many local burners who can't make it to the playa. You can always come here! We have 4 large events (multi-day rural events) planned for 2005, as well as between 6-12 "urban" events (like our recent Decompression and our upcoming Interactive Art Show), and 4-8 local gatherings a month. This is spread out over 4 islands, so no we are not totally nuts. Feel free to come on out and burn with us on the beach like so many other burners do already.

You know I REALLY have to thank Jim and Chicken (in all seriousness with NO sarcasm). Since I founded the Hawaii Regional we have been trying to keep our focus on art and the EDM folks (that's electronic dance music) always want to turn everything we do into just another big party. It has been a constant struggle to emphasize the importance of art and keep our focus on it. This whole brouhaha has done 3/4 of my work for me, thank you very much, my hat is off to you.

I for one will not engage in petty mudslinging (although it IS real hard to avoid a ribbing here and there, I believe you Borg2 folks call that comedy, or so one your 14 theses states) and I believe people reading this thread are smart enough to make up their own minds. So go ahead sling some mud, show everyone what you are made of, maybe I'll even learn the banjo for you if you play nice.

andi · Post by **andi** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:22 pm

MY MY! The language! What will the children think? Whatever happened to Radical Inclusion and respect? I guess that is just another one of Larry's nefarious plots.

What's wrong with telling the truth? Truth not fit with your view of the universe? That's your problem not mine, but if it makes you feel better you can just rant at me. Every year there are always burners who proclaim BM dead and they leave, it is just a fact, and this has absolutely nothing to do with Borg2, you brought that up I did not. Man you guys are sensitive, I must be pressing on a nerve. Seems no matter what I say one of you guys are going to jump all over me, twisting my words around to make me look like a demon, then attempt to insult me and the people of Hawaii. Is this your idea of what Burning Man has lost and you want to regain? Keep it up, you are really showing your true colors.

4caminos, I agree with you, I too have been feeling the shift over the past couple of years on the playa. Personally I think it has more to do with changing demographics with a larger population of newbies. I saw a lot of "Burning Man entitlement", you know where random people will demand a gift and curse you out when you balk (my friend calls this the "Take Economy"). And whenever I talk to any random person who has not been to BRC 9 times out of 10 they say "oh yeah that big party in the desert". I am very excited by the Borg2 project but amping up art on the playa will only put a band-aid on bigger problem, in MY opinion.

People don't play the banjo here, it's the slack key guitar. And I am afraid I can't make that appointment to beat the snot out of you, hope you are not too disappointed. Odd numbered years I am going to stay here and produce our own Labor day event for the many local burners who can't make it to the playa. You can always come here! We have 4 large events (multi-day rural events) planned for 2005, as well as between 6-12 "urban" events (like our recent Decompression and our upcoming Interactive Art Show), and 4-8 local gatherings a month. This is spread out over 4 islands, so no we are not totally nuts. Feel free to come on out and burn with us on the beach like so many other burners do already.

You know I REALLY have to thank Jim and Chicken (in all seriousness with NO sarcasm). Since I founded the Hawaii Regional we have been trying to keep our focus on art and the EDM folks (that's electronic dance music) always want to turn everything we do into just another big party. It has been a constant struggle to emphasize the importance of art and keep our focus on it. This whole brouhaha has done 3/4 of my work for me, thank you very much, my hat is off to you.

I for one will not engage in petty mudslinging (although it IS real hard to avoid a ribbing here and there, I believe you Borg2 folks call that comedy, or so one your 14 theses states) and I believe people reading this thread are smart enough to make up their own minds. So go ahead sling some mud, show everyone what you are made of, maybe I'll even learn the banjo for you if you play nice.

andi · Post by **andi** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:23 pm

OOPS! Sorry for the double posting, my bad.

III · Post by **III** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:17 pm

""Whatever happened to Radical Inclusion and respect?""

you realize, of course, that "radical inclusion" is an anathema to every other principle that has ever at one time or another been pronounced to be a part of the burning man ideal.

as for that respect thing, those plur people have demonstrated that it's primarily something you're supposed to demand of others, rather than seeking to effect in your own life.

jimmason · Post by **jimmason** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:17 pm

III wrote:""Whatever happened to Radical Inclusion and respect?""

you realize, of course, that "radical inclusion" is an anathema to every other principle that has ever at one time or another been pronounced to be a part of the burning man ideal.

"radical inclusion" without clear ideas about what we are doing here is a fast road to "radical nothingness".

if the event is about everything, it will quickly be about nothing.

the borg2 has stood up and made a series of claims about what this experiment is about and offered "radical inclusion" to whomever wants to particpipate within the trajectory sketched.

j

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:39 pm

"It's all for nothing if you don't have freedom. "

andi · Post by **andi** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:21 pm

Hey the gang's all here!

III wrote:you realize, of course, that "radical inclusion" is an anathema to every other principle that has ever at one time or another been pronounced to be a part of the burning man ideal.

You seem pretty sure about that. For simplicity's sake let's confine all these principles you talk about to the "10 guiding principles", we are talking about principles and not rules right? I just don't see what you mean, I think you would have to be pretty imaginative to think any of the other 9 "guiding principles" are exclusionary, but hey we're all artists here, we can imagine anything, or nothing because nothing is everything.

III wrote:as for that respect thing, those plur people have demonstrated that it's primarily something you're supposed to demand of others, rather than seeking to effect in your own life.

Actually I look at respect as being a gift and disrespect as a form of violence, but that's just me. And just who are "those plur people"?

andi · Post by **andi** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:10 am

How about a constructive, non-partisan, fat-free, oh and don't forget low carb idea?

A couple of people earlier on this thread had said how they thought the "key hole" plaza thing didn't really work out, and someone else mentioned how art, themecamps, and most creative activity was near the esplanade and out on the playa, not a lot of art or activity was going on towards the rear.

How about 500' wide (or so) "boulevards" (or whatever you want to call them), with art filling up the middle and roads to either side. It would give people an incentive to venture to the rear more often and provide more space for art in the interior of the city. It would also divide the city into segments which you could combine with a pie shaped wedge of the playa all the way to the Man which Borg2 or any other collective of villages, themecamps, or artists could organize. The project would get centercamp and the wedge out to the Man (and probably the safety circle around it), while the four other "districts" or pie wedges and the open playa would take up the rest. That would mean two "boulevards" to either side of centercamp.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:21 am

Talk to Harley.

4caminos · Post by **4caminos** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:54 pm

Andi wrote:

4caminos, I agree with you, I too have been feeling the shift over the past couple of years on the playa. Personally I think it has more to do with changing demographics with a larger population of newbies. I saw a lot of "Burning Man entitlement", you know where random people will demand a gift and curse you out when you balk (my friend calls this the "Take Economy"). And whenever I talk to any random person who has not been to BRC 9 times out of 10 they say "oh yeah that big party in the desert". I am very excited by the Borg2 project but amping up art on the playa will only put a band-aid on bigger problem, in MY opinion.

People don't play the banjo here, it's the slack key guitar. And I am afraid I can't make that appointment to beat the snot out of you, hope you are not too disappointed. Odd numbered years I am going to stay here and produce our own Labor day event for the many local burners who can't make it to the playa. You can always come here! We have 4 large events (multi-day rural events) planned for 2005, as well as between 6-12 "urban" events (like our recent Decompression and our upcoming Interactive Art Show), and 4-8 local gatherings a month. This is spread out over 4 islands, so no we are not totally nuts. Feel free to come on out and burn with us on the beach like so many other burners do already.

Heh heh.
Andi, I like you, you got hella moxie.

That island burn actually sounds really good. I swear to God, at least once during the week of BM, when the dust and cold and sleeplessness are getting to me, I'll turn to my friends and say "WTF are we doing here again?" Then, "why can't this event happen somewhere around some water?"
Then I pop a Tecate and stop complaining.

Don't tell anybody I said that...

4Caminos

(and I loathe the Take Economy)

Shinxy · Post by **Shinxy** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:23 pm

Blah. All I'm hearing is more whining and elitism from the art community here. Isn't there anyone who feels that the bigger Burning Man gets, the better it will get? (as long as it sticks to its ideals no commercial transactions on the playa, radical self reliance, radical self expression, no tourists only participants.) If I really felt like everyone felt so cynically about "outsiders" coming in and spoiling their little art jam in the desert, I wouldn't come at all. I always felt like Burning Man was a really positive place of good vibes, to use Californian parlance, so what's all this jive talk about disrespectful newcomers demanding gifts and that inclusion is against the principles of Burning Man? If you don't bring any newcomers in, of all ages sexes races and backgrounds, then you're just a stagnant little clique of art fags showing off in the desert for no good reason at all. The festival, IMO, was and will always be about community and reconnecting with my fellow human beings on a primal level on a kind of dreamlike neutral ground. And the art's there too. But that's definitely not all there is. Don't be so materialistic.

jimmason · Post by **jimmason** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:31 pm

well Shinxy, let me be the first to uninvite you.

this doesn't really seem like the right experiment for you. might i suggest you check out the rainbow gathering. i think you will be pleased with what you find there . . .

jim

4caminos · Post by **4caminos** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:07 pm

Shinxy.

Don't be hating on Cali "art-fags" just 'cause you're from Mehdd-fihdd.
Oh yes, I've been there and I can understand why you'd be "wikked pissed". It's almost Revere, after all.

Heh heh.

Shinxy wrote:

Isn't there anyone who feels that the bigger Burning Man gets, the better it will get? (as long as it sticks to its ideals no commercial transactions on the playa, radical self reliance, radical self expression, no tourists only participants.)

These dichotomies are precisely what is being hashed out now. See?
Reading is fundamental, Massboy. Read the threads for some intriguing ideas on how to resolve these conundrums, then come back for some banjo.

4Caminos

III · Post by **III** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:26 pm

> Isn't there anyone who feels that the bigger Burning Man gets, the better it will get? (as long as it sticks to its ideals no commercial transactions on the playa, radical self reliance, radical self expression, no tourists only participants.)

itym "had stuck to".

but then it wouldn't have gotten as large.

TheJudge · Post by **TheJudge** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:04 pm

III wrote:> Isn't there anyone who feels that the bigger Burning Man gets, the better it will get? (as long as it sticks to its ideals no commercial transactions on the playa, radical self reliance, radical self expression, no tourists only participants.)

itym "had stuck to".

but then it wouldn't have gotten as large.

I gotta agree with III on this. The bigger Burning Man gets, the more the mundane world creeps in. Not because we are unaware of it, but because of increased attention by local governments, federal authorities and anyone else that wants to make money from 35,000 people in an area that would normally just be a big-ass pile of dust.

How much did the BLM charge the Borg for permission to hold an event on public land? How many regulations were there that said the event HAD to have security/ fire/ sanitation codes/ environmental concerns etc? Self-reliance is a thing of the past. The local authorites have seen to it that you have to rely on their help to hold the event, or you won't be allowed to go out there at all.

Accept Burning Man......

Accept Burning Man......

Re: Accept Burning Man......

Re: Accept Burning Man......