Larry Harvey takes the bet . . . can you believe it?

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
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BlueBirdPoof
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Post by BlueBirdPoof » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:21 am

Isotopia wrote:
The SF Guardian article didn't help that.
The Bay Guardian does nothing to clarify anything. Just hippies at typewriters waiting for position to open down the street at Starbucks.
And then there's Tim Redmond. He must be banned at SB, because he's been there nigh on 20 years.

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Post by mamasaid » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:49 am

"The Bay Guardian does nothing to clarify anything. Just hippies at typewriters waiting for position to open down the street at Starbucks."

How come there is no emoticon to show my hysterical laughter??
Nice...
sorry but the BG is one of the worst indie/alt's I've ever read, that along with live105 (except for Howard Stern, their only saving grace.)
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Post by safetythird » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:03 am

One thing is for sure. With all this passion stirred up on both sides of the issue, 05 should be one hell of an event.

I'm definitely looking forward to it.

S3

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Post by geekster » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:16 am

GlowScreen wrote:This brings back the same point that I was making earlier in this discussion. Artists who want to create art in the desert next year will have to make a choice. Will the art happen within the geographical regiion of Borg1 or Borg2?

I am fairly sure that Borg2 geography will lie somewhere WITHIN Borg1 geography. So the people in Borg1 space will have complete access to Borg2 art and vice versa. It isnt like they it will be two separate events with a fence between them. Borg2 playa art will go on the same playa as borg1 art. At least that is how I have understood it so far. The net effect is to bring more art to burning man with a group being delegated some of the responsibility for funding and locating a portion of it. I still fail to see where the divisions are.
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Anthony Bondi
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Post by Anthony Bondi » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:21 am

First, you make contributions to both BORGs. This is to buy access to private offices for "discussions". Carry to these discussions a satchel full of cash and a "consultant" agreement to be arranged with the chosen relative of the official with whom you are speaking. Keep in mind that your goal in this conversation is profit. The grant you are requesting must be greater than your original two contributions and the cash that will soon be forwarded to your "consultant". Lastly, come up with a plausible idea for a project. Assume bad weather will make the presentation of your hypothetical project unnecessary. Spend the money on a party for your near and dear friends.
Or, post your project proposal on ebay and let it be funded by the highest bidder.
Or, assume this self-made society of ours is governed by reasonable ethics and act accordingly. Apply to both groups if you like but agree in advance that in the unlikely event of your being double-funded, you will apply all the received funds to your art production or return the unneeded funds to the least well-funded of the two BORGs.

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GlowScreen
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Post by GlowScreen » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:29 am

geekster wrote:
GlowScreen wrote:This brings back the same point that I was making earlier in this discussion. Artists who want to create art in the desert next year will have to make a choice. Will the art happen within the geographical regiion of Borg1 or Borg2?

I am fairly sure that Borg2 geography will lie somewhere WITHIN Borg1 geography. So the people in Borg1 space will have complete access to Borg2 art and vice versa. It isnt like they it will be two separate events with a fence between them. Borg2 playa art will go on the same playa as borg1 art. At least that is how I have understood it so far. The net effect is to bring more art to burning man with a group being delegated some of the responsibility for funding and locating a portion of it. I still fail to see where the divisions are.
Hmmm. You are really not getting it.

An object can only exist in one place at a time. A creation will have to be physically located in either Borg1 space or Borg2 space. That is the decision that the artist has to make.

The participants do not face this decision, of course they can go anywhere and do anythinng, but the people making and placing the art do have to choose sides. I hope that you understand my point now.

It is a valid point and it is the foremost question on the minds of most of the artists that have discussed this topic with me here in NYC.

amy
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Post by geekster » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:39 am

I would assume that it could, at most, work exactly once.

The feeling I get from both borgs is that they are most likely funding people that have some kind of track record of actually producing art. Though I did hear that several large art installations were no-shows in 2004 but I am not aware if any of those were funded through grants or if they were, if the grants might have been returned. Sure, it is always risky giving someone some of your hard earned, but that is a part of life. I gave borg2 a little of mine ... not to get anything material in return, but that it might possibly help a little in getting more art to burningman.

If they succeed in that, awesome, then I will feel that my contribution was worth it. If they fuck it up, maybe I won't contribute next time, depends on the fuck up, but I am not going to worry much about what other people do either. If it turns out to be a rat hole and people want to dump their money in it, more power to them. My gut feeling is that isn't going to be the case. I am willing to look at it in a positive light, give them a shot, and hope for the best rather than sit and try to shoot it down before it is even built.
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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:41 am

Another way to look at this is; I have never before donated money to the Borg Art Fund (or any fund other than my own). I've always "rolled my own" so to speak.

But the Borg2 proposal has me excited enough that I have donated money to it. I will still bring some kind or Art, doubt I will try for Borg2 inclusion. But I would really like to see the LHPO group at BM in 2005 (I was perhaps naively planning a reduced version of my own in 2006)

Now I am considering funding other Art (like the Borg fund - maybe even Stuart if he comes up with a decent proposal [last year's proposal was great])

Perhaps a case of fresh fish for the grinder...but at least it is fresh!

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Post by geekster » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:48 am

GlowScreen wrote:Hmmm. You are really not getting it.

An object can only exist in one place at a time. A creation will have to be physically located in either Borg1 space or Borg2 space. That is the decision that the artist has to make.

The participants do not face this decision, of course they can go anywhere and do anythinng, but the people making and placing the art do have to choose sides. I hope that you understand my point now.

It is a valid point and it is the foremost question on the minds of most of the artists that have discussed this topic with me here in NYC.

amy
Or maybe you aren't. Since space2 lies within space1, anything within space2 is also within space1. I get the impression that you seem to WANT to be confrontational or divisive. That you need it to be somehow in order for you to understand it. That it has to be in black/white terms. I am looking at the Tao of it, maybe. If artists bring their art as part of Borg2, it is also going to enhance my experiance as a participant in the event no matter if I am "with" Borg1 or Borg2. I get to experiance their art, they get to experiance mine. I still don't understand how artists associated with Borg2 are "taking anything away" from Borg1. They till paid their ticket to Borg1, all participants get to experiance the art. You are not "forced to choose" at all. You are FREE to choose. If you feel comfortable with Borg1's procedures and direction, stay with it! There is no need for you to do anything. If Borg2's procedures are more to your liking, go for it, cast your lot with them. In either case, all the participants get to experiance the art no matter if it is a Borg1 or Borg2 piece.
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Post by Chicken John » Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:16 pm

Glowscreen your asking questions that we simply can't answer yet. Please allow us to have 1 meeting first. It would be presumtuious of me to answer when we haven't even got together once yet. In any case, art should be put where the artist is gonna have the most fun or that works best for the art peice. Whatever makes sence and it changes peice by piece. So there will never really be a proper answer. I remind you all, this is an experiment that only happens once. There will be no borg2 in 2006. Or maybe there will be no borg1??????

Mwaaaaaaaa hhaaaaaaa hhaaaaaaaaaaaa......

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Post by GlowScreen » Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:24 pm

Chicken John wrote:Glowscreen your asking questions that we simply can't answer yet. Please allow us to have 1 meeting first. It would be presumtuious of me to answer when we haven't even got together once yet. In any case, art should be put where the artist is gonna have the most fun or that works best for the art peice. Whatever makes sence and it changes peice by piece. So there will never really be a proper answer. I remind you all, this is an experiment that only happens once. There will be no borg2 in 2006. Or maybe there will be no borg1??????

Mwaaaaaaaa hhaaaaaaa hhaaaaaaaaaaaa......
OK. I will be patient. I want to see this thing fly.

And Geekster...I am not being devisive...I'm tired of this argument...the artists do have to choose in which area they are going to place the work. I won't post anymore about this until afer y'all meet and put out more info.

Please note that many concerned folks who want to support this effort are standing in the same puddle of questions with me.

amy
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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:25 pm

GlowScreen wrote:
geekster wrote:
GlowScreen wrote:This brings back the same point that I was making earlier in this discussion. Artists who want to create art in the desert next year will have to make a choice. Will the art happen within the geographical regiion of Borg1 or Borg2?

I am fairly sure that Borg2 geography will lie somewhere WITHIN Borg1 geography. So the people in Borg1 space will have complete access to Borg2 art and vice versa. It isnt like they it will be two separate events with a fence between them. Borg2 playa art will go on the same playa as borg1 art. At least that is how I have understood it so far. The net effect is to bring more art to burning man with a group being delegated some of the responsibility for funding and locating a portion of it. I still fail to see where the divisions are.
Hmmm. You are really not getting it.

An object can only exist in one place at a time. A creation will have to be physically located in either Borg1 space or Borg2 space. That is the decision that the artist has to make.....snip..... amy
Actually, I think the only decision that needs to be made is by the CURATORS. If I had a mega-cool huge project, I would apply to BOTH orgs (and some private sources as well). Only if BOTH accepted would there be an issue (maybe not even then). Only then would an Artist truly be "forced to choose" (assuming that Borg would not fund/place Borg2 and visa-versa, not at all obvious)

Look at it this way; assume that a large camp decided to include a bunch of art. The name of this camp is "Borg2". The Borg2 camp applies to the Borg for placement (maybe even funding). The Borg2 camp also starts it's own private fund raising (to be used as Borg2 sees fit). Late in summer, the Borg announces it's grants and camp placement. The Borg2 then adds up all the money it has raised, and adds in the Borg grants, and that is the "camp" fund.

Now, the Borg2 camp probably won't allow non-Borg2 persons to place stuff in their zone due to "the Bet" (unless it is really cool). But I don't see why the Borg wouldn't allow Borg2 funded Art to be placed outside the Borg2 zone (it could be marked to avoid issues with "the Bet") - this is "gravy" for them ("free Art"). Of course, the Borg2 may place restrictions on placement of "their" Art. But maybe not.

What if the Borg2 actually books the LHPO? That would require quite a bit of open space (for safety and crowd). Probably best in the open playa.

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Post by shitmouse » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:57 pm

without diving into the politics, i think this is a good thing for the playa.
it could indeed make for a good 05 BRC. looking forward to how it plays out.
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III
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Post by III » Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:45 pm

this may be a moot question, since b2 professes to be about the art, not the community, but it still seems like having b1 do all the camp placement will affect things more than would art placement. is there any desire on b2's part to negotiate this from b1, or is there any chance that b1 would release their tight grip on that aspect of the event?
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obtuse?

Post by sake » Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:05 pm

ok, maybe I'm being obtuse here, but what exactly did borg2 win again? They can establish a semi-autonomous area within BRC to camp and place art for which they can raise their own funds with the blessing of borg1. And that's different from any other big camp because, ummmm, help me out here. They can dispense their (self-raised) funds anyway they want? oohhhhkaaaay. borg1 agrees not to put limits on the (self-funded) art? as compared to which limits on self funded art elsewhere on the playa? Except maybe mutant vehicles....

I do think that all this sturm und drang is good for burning man, I think 2005 is going to be a fantastic year, but I'm stuck feeling like borg2 got suckered.

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Post by III » Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:16 pm

>different from any other big camp

it's different in size (many blocks, instead of part of one) and in process (they don't have to submit the same sort of detailed plan that smaller camps do).

it's good to have connections, apparently larry was shmoozing with chicken at the odeon last night...
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Post by jimmason » Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:53 pm

III wrote:>different from any other big camp

it's different in size (many blocks, instead of part of one) and in process (they don't have to submit the same sort of detailed plan that smaller camps do).


given the speed with which this is propagating, we'll likely be half an arm of the city by the time this is done.

maybe we can decide on a different layout in our part. we'll have to work this out with harley in the end once more things are clear.

many unknowns still . . .

j

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Post by natthebat » Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:18 pm

I like this thread now (even though you're not all playing my games). Glad to see more open minded ideas about how it could work -vs- why it can't work. Who ever said that we get to choose instead of being forced to choose was right on, in my opinion. We get to choose how we will participate. Choice is what has come of this. It is pleasing to me.

Having a choice is like having a vote. An opportunity to create your piece of reality.
and fuck you too.

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Re: obtuse?

Post by Savior69 » Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:24 pm

sake wrote:ok, maybe I'm being obtuse here, but what exactly did borg2 win again?
Yeah, thats my question. It sounds like a village to me.

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Post by Chicken John » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:06 pm

I guess we'll have to wait and see what we 'won'. I think you guys are keeping score in a pretty lame way. Why are you assuming we want anything? You people are too serious. I just took 3 weeks off work to give it all away and now your insulting me for not ending up with anything from the big hustle which actually reads as you thinking that we were trying to hustle somebody out of something which tells me your in a defensive mind frame which means your guilty of something. So whose the hustler? All we ever said we wanted was to fix the art.

I think that alot of people on this eplaya thing are kinda grouchy and mean.

Think of eplaya as a party. Think of all the people on eplaya as standing around at a party. Music is playing. Drinks are flowing. It's a party. Bunch of people around that you don't know. Got the picture in your mind? Good. Now imagine me walking into the party. I talk to a few people. Bring up a few topics. Then what do I do? What is the next thing I do at this party?

I walk out the door.

It was nice to meet a few of you. I hope all your dreams come true at BM this next year. if anyone needs me: [email protected]

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Post by geekster » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:14 pm

Damn, C.J. ... . don't let them get to ya. See, the thing about places like this is that the vast majority don't ever speak up and that is a good thing because if they did, it would be hard to make sense out of the spatterings of postings. But you already knew that. There are also people that are locked and loaded and ready to shoot holes in any idea that is floated. That's okay, it's what they do. It can be useful sometimes too, if tedious. But you already knew that too.

Don't go away, hang around. Or at least hang out on the lawn and peek in every once in a while.

Oh, and sorry for calling you C.J.

*snicker*
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sake
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not really what I said

Post by sake » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:55 pm

I think anything that brings more better art to the playa is a very good thing.

This whole borg2 started with a manifesto - here's how we think things should run. This particular thread started with enthusiasm, a sense of winning a competition for a shot at revitalizing the soul of burning man.

I think that's great. More power to you. I'm just struggling to understand how this victory plays in that competition. It sounds to me like what you've won is just the right to form a big-ass village. Ok, a very cool big-ass village. A village with a manifesto for art. But couldn't you have gotten that within the borg1 structures? I fear they may have co-opted your revolution.

Ok (light dawning) if the folks who come to commit art gravitate towards a center, they can distance themselves from the folks who come to party, is that the premise? Hmmm, maybe. I think many people are for an arty-party. And I'm still not sure this couldn't have been done by declaring Chicken John's big-ass art village.

Regardless of the physical results, this debate and effort is good for BRC. Thank you, and good luck.

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Post by geekster » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:00 pm

It seems to me that they have won a little more autonomy than the run-of-the-mill village though. Or maybe better, they have been delegated a little more responsibility.
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Post by buckethead alien » Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:12 am

One way of looking at what the borg2 has "won" is that they have won a chance to be their own entity on the playa. This mean they can achieve spatial, conceptual, and artistic separation from the shapeless mass of BRC.

(Yeah, yeah I know that from 1,000 feet BRC's a big, beautiful arc, but from the ground this pattern is functionally meaningless other than making it easy to get from the rave camps on one end to those on the other.)

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III
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Post by III » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:27 am

>we'll have to work this out with harley

i thought part of the bet acceptance was that they wouldn't give up that control.

good luck...
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III
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Post by III » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:28 am

p.s. chicken john is funny. mean people. heh...
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Post by technopatra » Sat Dec 11, 2004 10:22 am

POINT OF CLARIFICATION:

The only way to "donate" money to the Project (yes, I will continue calling it by it's name, rather than the still-somewhat-derogatory-and-misnomed "borg1") for the purposes of funding on-playa art is by buying a ticket. Project-funded art money comes from ticket sales, only.

Donating money to BRAF funds art that is meant for exhibit off-playa. Donating to BRAF does NOT fund playa art, (tho I do believe that there are a few cases where art that was funded by BRAF and dsplayed elsewhere also made it to the playa).

The grant application processes for the Project (playa art) and BRAF (non-playa art) are entirely different. You can go to the Black Rock Arts Foundation site if you want more information.

So the debate about whether to give money to both organiziations for playa art this year is moot.

By all means contribute to both BRAF and the BORG2 fund. They are not in competition, nor are they at cross-purposes.

Hope that helps clarify things.

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Post by geekster » Sat Dec 11, 2004 10:40 am

WOW, Yes it did, THANK YOU. I was clearly under the impression that BRAF was a vehicle for getting art projects onto the playa. I don't know how I came to that conclusion ... probably just my own leap.

Thanks!
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Post by Discosybil » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:29 pm

We had a few people over last night for dinner and was surprise this conversation came up. Most of the people had never gone to Burningman but someone did bring up the bet challenging Larry Harvey. I was soooooooo shocked it came up because I made it a point not to bring up Burningman since I'm a tad bit obsessed. Again, I think this is going to be the best year. Damn I've had a little to many, I don't even remember what this thread was about now that I'm checking my spelling.

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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:34 am

technopatra wrote:...Project-funded art money comes from ticket sales, only...Hope that helps clarify things.
So I have been funding Project Art all along...I am especially proud of my backing the Temple of Gravity :wink:

So this really is a Win-Win situation. Anyone that complains is a fool. We either get a bunch of way cool art (and maybe the LHPO; http://www.lhpo.org/) or a way cool dunk tank at decompression. As well as all the usual cool Project Art. And maybe even Britney, although that fund raising effort seems to be lagging abit....

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