Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

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vargaso
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by vargaso » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:42 pm

Eric wrote:
Token wrote:The issue though is that the BORG doesn't seem to care one way or another. If someone uses the "Man Image" on a web page the BORG legal team is like SWAT spider monkeys on the offender, but if someone charges big bucks to run an on-playa business ... then whatever.
[mod hat off]

I have no insider knowledge, but I'd bet enough to pay for my own stay in White Ocean that the Org gets a cut from the camps, same as the BLM, under the guise of 'licensing" or some such nonsense. It's allowed because it's profitable, not because they don't care.

Again, I don't know this to be true, this is purely my own opinion, but I can't see a group so fanatic about protecting their mark letting this slide without good reason. Letting camps like White Ocean sell a Burning Man vacation would start to invalidate that trademark, unless there was licensing - which means $$$.

That or I'm starting to think like Simon, which is not a bad thing...

[/mod hat on]
That'd be a pretty big fucking bummer if true.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Slaphappy » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:59 pm

Slaphappy wrote:The Plug N Play culture is EXACTLY what Burning Man attendees were escaping from in the very beginning, and they are exactly what tens of thousands work hard to try to escape from today, at least for a week. And yet they are encouraged to proliferate and make the event less welcoming, clean and rewarding each year. I just don't understand that mindset.
How disturbing that Eric's comment is about the only thing that makes sense.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by some seeing eye » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:22 pm

Eric wrote: I have no insider knowledge, but I'd bet enough to pay for my own stay in White Ocean that the Org gets a cut from the camps, same as the BLM, under the guise of 'licensing" or some such nonsense. It's allowed because it's profitable, not because they don't care.

Again, I don't know this to be true, this is purely my own opinion, but I can't see a group so fanatic about protecting their mark letting this slide without good reason. Letting camps like White Ocean sell a Burning Man vacation would start to invalidate that trademark, unless there was licensing - which means $$$.

That or I'm starting to think like Simon, which is not a bad thing...
[/mod hat on]
No inside information, but concierge camps are going to be major users of on playa RV delivery and all the other outside vendor services. (Someone could probably do an exact calculation but say 300RVs+ x $3-10K for a week is money) And camps with various size budgets and dues would be next in line for water delivery, fuel, pre/post event labor, produce delivery, generator delivery, pumping, Segways, any private bus services.

The BLM effectively has a value added tax on camps based on budget. And it would be logical that the organizers of the event receive compensation from the outside vendors. If I were the organizers, I would also charge concierge camps for the cultural orientation and special handling. The organizers are already getting extra cash flow from the high end tickets.*

It would also be logical that the organizers of the event have quite a bit of information about camps through outside services, placement, DGS, proprietary ticket information and donations. They would have information on the small plane charter numbers. All that information would give them the dollar value to the event budget of any particular concierge camp.

Personally, I don't think the concierge camps can be eliminated. I think campers can be trained to become more participatory, in tune with BM values and invisible. I think we will find the festival-MOOPer crowd is more a challenge to the event.

*And BTW it is about time for the ticket system to disqualify buyers from the regular sale who have already been successful in the patron and presale.
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Token
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Token » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:27 pm

(((Eric)))

I'd hug Simon too, but man, I don't know where hes been ... Lots of hard miles on that chassis.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by maladroit » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:37 pm

My dear,

We need to make books pee jugs cool again. If you go home with somebody and they don’t have books a pee jug, don’t fuck them. Don’t let them explore you until they’ve explored the secret universes of books peeing into a small hole in a Gatorade bottle. Don’t let them connect with you until they’ve walked between the lines on the pages pissed into a jug by light of a headlamp, in a dusty windblown tent.

Books Pee jugs are cool (or sometimes disturbingly warm), if you have to withhold yourself from someone for a bit in order for them to realize this then do so.

Truly yours,
John Samuel Waters

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Eric » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:52 pm

some seeing eye wrote:*And BTW it is about time for the ticket system to disqualify buyers from the regular sale who have already been successful in the patron and presale.
[mod hat off, yet again]
This is one of my personal biggest pet peeves, and one of my rant drafts for the BRC Weekly as I fumbled for ideas was basically this: There is no fucking way in hell that someone who can afford FOUR $990 tix should be allowed to compete for the already extremely hard to get $390 tickets with the rest of us plebes. Not only is it unfair, but it knocks way too many average (ie: not rich) Burners out of the running.

Sadly, this seems to be one of those areas that the Org can't see from the windows of their ivory tower (maybe the drapes made out of $100 bills get in the way), and I don't know if they have any clue at how much this pisses off "the masses" every year.

Pardon the bluntness, but this is obviously an area outside of the usual "calmness" I try to display on here.
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Colonel Monk » Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:23 pm

Eric wrote:
some seeing eye wrote:*And BTW it is about time for the ticket system to disqualify buyers from the regular sale who have already been successful in the patron and presale.
[mod hat off, yet again]
This is one of my personal biggest pet peeves, and one of my rant drafts for the BRC Weekly as I fumbled for ideas was basically this: There is no fucking way in hell that someone who can afford FOUR $990 tix should be allowed to compete for the already extremely hard to get $390 tickets with the rest of us plebes. Not only is it unfair, but it knocks way too many average (ie: not rich) Burners out of the running.

Sadly, this seems to be one of those areas that the Org can't see from the windows of their ivory tower (maybe the drapes made out of $100 bills get in the way), and I don't know if they have any clue at how much this pisses off "the masses" every year.

Pardon the bluntness, but this is obviously an area outside of the usual "calmness" I try to display on here.
[slapping that mod hat back on]
You are forgiven, and could not be more right.

I do know that some folks buy the pre-sale as a "safety" in case they don't get tix thru the regular sales, I understand the panic, but allowing this not only allows those with means an unfair advantage to acquire tickets.

It could also allow unfair advantage to scalpers to acquire tickets (dunno if the new system is effective at preventing the scalping or not.)

I'm not nearly as crusty and grizzled as some of you, just having returned home from burn #10, but I was there early enough to see what it was like BEFORE the masses showed up. Hah, to some this is not true (to you I wasn't here before the masses), but the event is more than double the size from the year I first came.

I feel like it's changing from an SF to an LA the last 3-4 years, and I don't really like it. Could still be the best show on earth, but feel like I should get some "Keep Burning Man Weird" stickers or something. Feel like it's losing the vibe that I originally fell for.

The fly in fly out PnP folks and extra emphasis on theme camps (which also get some bit of advantage to acquire tickets these days) have not helped. Particularly the sheer number of arrivals for theme camps.

I have come early to help build camp infrastructure/art and left late to take it down in the past, and in both cases largely to avoid the crowd of ingress/egress. My anxiety doesn't do well in waiting circumstance.... neither does my desert home on wheels....

While it may have gone smoother this year in terms of the exodus waits being more uniform, since not everyone headed for the gate at once, there were definitely more people arriving early that I've ever seen and more didn't even attempt to break camp till tuesday.

I can't tell you how disappointed our camp was that monday night did not bring silence as usual for this exhausted band of volunteers, but instead we had to listen to some asshole thumping beats till 5am Tuesday morning off the 9:00. With the absence of all the other usual noise from streets, and absence of camps creating a soundblock, we listened to this bullshit all night long, over and over again like it was on repeat. Worse than it would have been on a regular night of the week. During the week it doesn't bother me at all and my home is right on 9:00 and C/D. Kinda surprised that nobody went over there sooner, a friend from another camp went over there at 5 am and tried really hard to reason with these assholes to have them shut down so that all could finally rest.

Something is missing for me, it's too early to ponder but I might not be coming every year at this point.
dust.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:48 pm

I understand the deep outrage in the US and in the world economic over the economic divide. So I’m likely in strong agreement with many ePlayans concerned by concierge representation of that on the playa.

So my many posts are themed on how to steer the trend.

I throw things to ePlaya with that interest. Change.

I’m a radical in my opinions. What we have is a system of laws and regulation which allows financial interests to drain money away from ordinary people on a continuous basis through the financial system: lending, home lending, investments, retirement, retail prices, investments and other survival home budgets.

The Work of Nations is a great book to read by the Secretary of Labor Robert Reich in the early Clinton I administration. It explains the practice of wealthy to wall themselves off: neighborhoods, schools, socially. The downside is that the resentment may be fierce. It is not in the self interest of the wealthy to wall themselves off.

Let’s talk radical.

First passive income needs to be taxed at equal or higher rates than earned income. Second assets need to be taxed, age indexed. Third inheritances over a large value need to be taxed. Fourth overseas angles need evaluation, if you reside in the USA, you need to tithe. Fifth rates need to index up with beyond middle class income.

Concierge camps are financed by upper income/asset individuals who employ middle - low middle individuals which make the budget work with low income individuals. Let’s make the contracts and relationships with concierge employees graceful and honest, with integrity, a model of beauty, respect and happiness. Every one. Then let's talk about concierge camp principals with high net worth publicly disclosing their charitable contributions.

That is a start.
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Simon of the Playa » Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:47 pm

Token wrote:(((Eric)))

I'd hug Simon too, but man, I don't know where hes been ... Lots of hard miles on that chassis.


and miles to go before i sleep...
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by maladroit » Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:45 pm

I've got promises to break
And miles to run after I take.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by bradtem » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:18 am

Trademark law is not always intuitive. The basis of trademark law is to prevent confusion of the public. So if I use your trademark in a way that might make people think my product is your product, you can sue me.

But what this means is that you are selling actual authentic BMOrg brand "burning man" then they can't stop you. Somebody can advertise "An experience at Burning Man" without consent of the Borg. They can advertise it all they want. I can buy genuine Gucci bags and advertise them as Gucci bags. What trademark law stops me from doing is using the name Gucci when I am selling knock-offs, or anything other than actual Gucci branded products. In the latter case, I am confusing the public as to where the products came from, in the former case, I am telling the truth.

As for blocking people who got tickets in the pre-sale from participating in later sales, that's pretty much impossible, because a set of 4 tickets is for 4 people, not one. No matter what rules you apply, one person can buy in one sale, and another from the same group can buy in another sale.

This is the reason that the lotteries (and even current sales) fail. When they tried to make it a lottery, if a pair of people wanted tickets, both entered the lottery for 2 tickets. Or more. If you try to limit it by name, address or credit card, almost every couple can be lots of different variations. If you end up with 4 tickets, any extras are trivial to unload -- at a profit, if that is your inclination, or at face value.
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by vargaso » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:14 pm

bradtem wrote:
As for blocking people who got tickets in the pre-sale from participating in later sales, that's pretty much impossible, because a set of 4 tickets is for 4 people, not one. No matter what rules you apply, one person can buy in one sale, and another from the same group can buy in another sale.
That's a good point. Even the same person could just use a different credit card.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by bradtem » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:30 pm

Of course there is a way -- which has been explicitly rejected by the BMOrg -- you can take this level of control over sales, which is to make all tickets tied to a person.

In such a system, to buy a ticket you have to upload a jpeg of the person it will be for, and you need the ticket takers at the gate to carry tablets which, on scanning a ticket code, will show that face. You can offer to put the same face on multiple tickets, but that requires that the person using such a ticket enter the city with the person whose face is on the ticket. (ie. you can buy a pair of tickets for you and an unspecified campmate, as long as she will enter with you. Otherwise upload 2 jpegs.) The jpeg could be of anything -- your face, your tattoo, your genitals if they are that distinctive, your drivers licence -- anything you are unlikely or unable to give to somebody else.)

Note that you don't need to provide your name or address, just the image.

Of course, in such a system, you can't sell tickets except through the org. This would give the org draconian control over ticket sales. They could forbid sales entirely (allowing only STEP) or they could make sales simple by letting you hand over control of the ticket to your buyer who then uploads a new jpeg. While gate has internet, so real time changes are fairly doable, you can have a small will call to carry out that function. Otherwise you don't need a will call because the tickets are electronic, and can't be lost, stolen or forged.

The Org has said scalping is a minor problem, and not worth doing something like this to prevent.

Pay-to-play camps could be impeded by such a system. If ticket resale were forbidden, your plug and play camp could not buy tickets in advance without knowing who they were buying them for. They could be sets of tickets but then the master person would have to accompany you into the city, possibly on only their first entry. That would be a logistic nightmare for them, but also for some real burners since plans change and people don't always arrive on plan. All of this would be policy -- the org could decide whatever rules it wants for ticket transfer, or use of tickets sharing the same face.

They could also, in this situation, make tickets refundable (ie. guarantee sale in STEP.) That's already true. But again, refundable but completely non-transferable tickets would be controversial for the regular community, even if it shut down the scalpers and the plug-and-play camps.
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by maladroit » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:46 pm

We don't really need new rules or anything. We just need the ORG to abide by their stated goals, rather than compromising them in order to feel important by "knowing" some rich and/or famous person. News flash, BMORG: they'll hang out with you but they still consider you hotel staff and roadies.

We just need to stop giving people preferential treatment on the playa because of who they are off-playa, full stop.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by some seeing eye » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:50 pm

Maybe we should send ticketing discussions to a new thread and concentrate this thread on on vandalism and pummeling sound camps/PnP?
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by vargaso » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:26 pm

White Ocean never filed a police report:

http://www.rgj.com/story/life/arts/burn ... /91173770/

“Without an official report, which the camp leads never made, Allen could not investigate the criminal ransacking.”

The entire thing didn’t happen, I'm betting.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by mudpuppy000 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:07 am

Camp with alleged russian gansters doesn't file police report, hmmm...

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Traveller in Time » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:31 am

Ganster war perhaps?
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by ZigZag » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:16 pm

Well the MOOP map for their camp and their music space didn't look so good.
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by lucky420 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:18 pm

Pretty much what we've come to expect from PnPs...they don't fucking care
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by ZigZag » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:27 pm

What are the names of some of the others? (She asked, wanting to look them up on the new MOOP map)
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Traveller in Time » Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:43 am

Another Journal

Just accept anyone anyway is radical inclusion.

Though I hope they fly in a concrete basin as floor for their site.
Dreaming a temporary world improving the default world



Not expressing yourself but embracing all other expressions is The Challenge




...I can make anything I can imagine . . . I just can't make _some_ things happen



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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Simon of the Playa » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:10 pm

here's some buddhist koan shit for y'all...

" when is a gift not a gift? "
Frida Be You & Me

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