Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

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Eric
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Eric » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:48 pm

VultureChow wrote:Eric was our biggest celeb of the week.
Normally I would say "Aw Shucks™" and give my ego a stroke, but in this case it's simply not true. You & Grai are both celebrities to me, and I had a blast getting to spend time with you. I also agree with your "Two Burns" theory, and have lived it for years without pegging down what it was. I much prefer spending my time slinging drinks at Fandango and having long talks (and occasional obnoxious shouting contests) there to going anywhere near the dance parties and huge art cars.
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by AntiM » Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:22 am

Two Burns indeed. This is why I run my happy little theme camp, with art for adoption. I've never been near the big camps and the sound, except once by accident. Chatting with people who stop for art is a great pleasure.

We host an international burner or two most years. Make them set up the monkey hut and tent we provide, let them use our kitchen but bring their own food, and basically just turn them loose. Terrific.

Two Burns would be a terrific playa name ...
VultureChow wrote:You CAN choose to avoid that whole scene. Deep in the city at 6:30 and F, we had our own fun camp. There were so many people who stuck their dicks in the bug zapper glory hole, that we ran out of swag for it. Guys and girls twirled on our electrified stripper pole. Body shots were had, Frito Pie was served, pewter was cast and eyes damaged. Lucky Bastard showed up after having just bought a ticket in Reno without planning to. Grai gave him a Camelbak.

I feel like there's two burns. City burn and Playa burn. The pictures are Playa Burn: art and sculpture and MV's. Big Name DJs and huge raves. Beautiful and dramatic. Like a museum. Or arena concert.

City Burn is intimate and gritty and FUN! Maybe not awe inspiring, but personally fun and fulfilling. It's where the rest of us live. And so far it feels fine. Paris Hilton didn't come into our bar for a photoshoot. Eric was our biggest celeb of the week.

If there's a change, then I feel like it's been going on all along and only feels accelerated because of social media. Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to eliminate plug n plays. There's nothing keeping an overseas burner from coming without one. They've been doing it for years.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by bradtem » Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:12 pm

There are many reasons people come to the playa. I would say the biggest three are:
  • Art -- to create and appreciate it
  • Partying/EDM (not discounting the art in these camps)
  • Community and socializing

(There are of course many more and I am curious of other suggestions for what might be on this list, which meet the test of "People would come to BRC if it only had this and little of the others")

Now for me, it's always been about the art and the community. I visit, but don't linger in the large-scale-sound camps. But I know many people who spend all their evenings there.

Your post about the two cities made me think of this because both the art and party scene are mostly on the playa or Esplanade, while the community/social part is mostly in the city.

So the question is, for those at the plug-and-play camps, what are the drivers bringing them there?
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Raoul » Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:53 pm

I would be lying if I said I didn't get some enjoyment from the big sound camps. They are part of the overall experience for me, but only one part. This year was my third burn. In my first two years, I felt driven to go out and explore as much as possible and really didn't spend that much leisure time in camp. But even always being on the go, it has been the interactions with people that have been my most memorable aspect of Burning Man.

Even though I did carve out a couple hours one evening to dance to some DJ I'd never heard of at one of the big camps on the 2:00 side, one of my goals for this year was to spend more time in camp to not only get to know more of my camp mates but also to spend time with visitors who wandered in to smoke the hookah or just get a break from the sun and the dust. There were a couple of days that I pretty much spent all afternoon talking with people I had just met. It was an amazing time.

Granted the objective of hanging out at the big sound camps is not to strike up conversation, but the random strangers I encountered there seemed much less welcoming than the random strangers I encountered in camp and wandering around the city streets. I would probably be marginally disappointed if the big sound camps went away, but they are such a small part of the burn for me that their disappearance wouldn't make me reconsider my decision to attend even for a second. The people, the art, the interactions, being a part of it, the enormity of it all - those are the things that attracted me to Burning Man to begin with and those are the things that keep me coming back. Getting to spend a couple hours dancing to some high end DJ sets played over an amazing sound system is just a bonus.

As for what happened to White Ocean, it is difficult to feel sorry for them if even half of the stories of their mistreatment of their workers are true; however, I can't get behind blaming the victim. IMHO "they had it coming" or "they were asking for it with their actions" are never acceptable brush-offs for destructive acts against people or property.
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Slaphappy » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:48 am

I find it reaffirming that so many commenters feel similar about the toxic effect of Plug N Plays. Vulcherchow’s “two burns” entry was very similar to my “two distinct communities” entry in the BM Journal early last week, and I’m sure many others have noted the same thing.

For reference:
“The result is almost two distinct communities; one with a genuine respect and appreciation for their neighbors and all who have come before to make Burning Man so fulfilling and special, and one who doesn’t give the slightest fuck about anyone but themselves, their own comfort and their perceived elevated status at all times.”

I submit the second community could be considered the Moral Ghetto of Black Rock City. In fact, you could tell your camp-mates “I’m venturing to the Moral Ghetto” and they’d know right where you’re headed.

Like everything else at Burning Man the ghetto is a crazy inverted neighborhood; Instead of extreme poverty, it suffers from extreme entitlement. Its heroin fix is total comfort and narcissism. The neighborhood’s social erosion along the fringes of the city has taken years, and struggles with a high crime rate that robs genuine burners of an atmosphere of camaraderie, inclusiveness and non-judgment (try hugging a feathered private-compound resident, or asking your girlfriend to shed her clothes or inhibitions for even five minutes in the ghetto). About 80% of the ghetto’s residents have no desire or capacity to even see laws/principles, much less abide by them. Communal Effort? Radical Self-reliance? Civic Responsibility? Are you kidding me?

And how about Leave No Trace. FOR TEN YEARS RUNNING, the ocher expanse of the area’s MOOP Map has made the Man Burn look like a scout bonfire (http://burningman.org/culture/history/b ... moop-maps/). Why? Because no one gives a fuck in the Moral Ghetto, and no one is held accountable.

And then there’s the granddaddy of social irresponsibility, Decommodification. Let’s be clear; These camps are using hundreds of Burning Man tickets as PAY for SLAVES to set up and operate EVERYTHING in their compound (no, it’s not a “camp”) – while building or doing absolutely nothing for themselves – so that a few thousand ADDITIONAL 8-day Burning Man tickets can be exploited by rude, selfish “guests” who parachute in Friday night with their cosmetics purse for a 36-hour bender. Oh, and they don’t just sit in their compound, they “participate” for a few hours by segway-ing along the Esplanade (or maybe A or B street at most) to judge/gawk like the tourists they truly are at what the genuine community has spent a week creating.

Folks, I’ve only been attending this wonderful event for two years now, so literally everyone reading this has more experience than me. So I need to ask you honestly, who the hell thinks the Moral Ghetto accurately represents, or in any way is good for, this community? Who first started allowing this to be “the norm” along the fringes of such an otherwise unspeakably wonderful place? And are they still in charge? And if so, why?

This issue has nothing to do with EDM, or who is spinning music at what hour. Whatever kind of music you enjoy, you can find it in BRC….knock yourself out. If every EDM camp vanished tomorrow there would still be 20+ Mutant Vehicles carrying the genre forward, as it should be if there's a desire and demand. The point is these secluded compounds could play a goddamn didgeridoo for twelve hours a day, and their current CULTURE of “100% Taker” would still run 100% counter to everything Burning Man is about according to BMORG’s own principles.

So enough bitching. How to fix things.

Well like a typical ghetto, it’s highly unlikely this neighborhood can magically extract itself from its condition. I’m sure there’s a pervasive, iron-clad expectation of “food stamp” ticket allotments and status quo. Some compounds are likely buying newer, bigger shit for next year as we speak (that they can’t possibly transport or build or manage themselves), and 2017 party invites are already being extended with a laser focus on commercial and social-status connections made this year. Like heroin addicts, camp leaders are asking “What can make ME richer? How much capital should I invest (disguised as ‘music gifting’) to ensure I can continue exploiting the Burning Man culture for MY benefit?”

Well there’s only two ways that can be addressed. “We” as a community – and especially the BMORG leadership – can either try to re-program the mindset of these hucksters and attendees one person at a time over years; or we can acknowledge how unlikely that is to succeed, acknowledge how this affects EVERYONE’s burn (hiding in your neighborhood does nothing but limit your worldview and allow the problem to expand), and begin making adjustments to realign the event with the type of residents who value the community and have a genuine desire to participate.

Since opinions are like assholes, here's my asshole:

1. CLOSE THE AIRPORT AT 6P SHARP ON THURSDAY
The airport was supposedly invented to “alleviate congestion on the roads” – and it’s a wonderful alternative to driving from Saturday to about Wednesday. But we all know the airport has also created this entire problem. There is no road congestion Thurs-Sat, so no reason for the airport to operate inbound flights during that timeframe....flights that currently ferry 100% Takers who can’t deal with the slightest delay or discomfort. This step alone would likely solve 90% of the Moral Ghetto problem.

2. NO PAID SLAVES
If your campmates can’t build it, it doesn’t get built. That simple. Sure compound leaders will start calling their slaves “campmates”, but word will get out, especially in this long-term secluded environment. If you facilitate slaves, you might as well buy a fucking adobe hut for next year because your compound isn’t getting placed.

3. REQUIRE MINIMUM 3 TO 5 FOOT GAP BETWEEN ALL RV’S AND/OR PERMANENT STRUCTURES
Radical Inclusion does not allow for walled compounds. You’re a millionaire? Great, welcome to the fucking club, tons of other residents who can expend this kind of time and expense are as well. It’s Black Rock City, not the Coachella parking lot. Get inclusive. It’s the easiest fix on this list.

4. IF CLOSING THE AIRPORT THURS DOESN’T RADICALLY IMPROVE THE COMMUNITY, CLOSE ALL ENTRY TO THE EVENT AT 6P THURSDAY
None of these ideas guarantee “the right type of neighbor”, because there is no such thing. If you end up living next to a total dickhead or some fragile spoiled rave-chickie for the week, well that’s just the way it is, so deal with it. Because guess what….at least they’re part of the community. At least they took four shits over four days in a hot desert. At least they’ve invested SOMETHING of themselves to be here. At a minimum we should require that a part of the Burning Man experience. Without it, there is no question that The Takers will continue to erode the event, Burning Man will trade on its name for a few extra years, and eventually Detroit in the Desert will offer OMG! Fast Passes to the trendiest dance floors in the Moral Ghetto.

Yea I know, this is TL;DR. I don’t care, I didn’t edit for space. Fuck you and your burn. But also keep earning the right to say the same to me as your dust-caked ass stands by my side at 4:30 and High Renaissance.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Corvus » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:29 am

Slaphappy wrote:I find it reaffirming that so many commenters feel similar about the toxic effect of Plug N Plays. Vulcherchow’s “two burns” entry was very similar to my “two distinct communities” entry in the BM Journal early last week, and I’m sure many others have noted the same thing.

For reference:
“The result is almost two distinct communities; one with a genuine respect and appreciation for their neighbors and all who have come before to make Burning Man so fulfilling and special, and one who doesn’t give the slightest fuck about anyone but themselves, their own comfort and their perceived elevated status at all times.”

I submit the second community could be considered the Moral Ghetto of Black Rock City. In fact, you could tell your camp-mates “I’m venturing to the Moral Ghetto” and they’d know right where you’re headed. [snip]
I like your analysis and "fix-it" ideas but for one: Close the gates at midnight Saturday morning instead of Thursday evening. There unfortunately a number of burners -- real burners -- who just can't leave their day job that long. Yeah, they're missing the whole soak in the vibe for the entire week as intended. Sucks to be them, but it would suck even worse it the 1%ers actions blocked them entirely.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Simon of the Playa » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:45 am

slaphappy is very astute, and i think this is another watershed moment in our history.

how do we as a community contain and minimize the impact of monied interests pushing product on the playa?

dj's are product, and a commodity now, the game has changed dramatically as huge dollars are involved.

brad tem nailed it...just exactly what is the motivation behind spending millions on "sound camps"?

simple...it's the best guerilla publicity money can buy and is worth every penny to a promoter.

one pic in Rolling Stone can be used to monetize a "burning man brand"

robot fart handing out logo / branded sunglasses is a perfect example of this activity.

its branding, plain and simple, any marketing professional will see it for what it is.

commodification, and not very well camoflaged either.

its an experiment in temporary community, not a fucking dirt rave.

those that use the burning man platform as a means to leap into the world of commodification and benefit from "esplanade cred" as an agenda are doing it way wrong.


just my humble opinion...
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by VultureChow » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:29 am

Neither the airport nor gate hours are the cause of our current troubles.

The wealthy have always been here, and the weekend warriors too. And for the record, the airport is not merely the domain of the 1%.

The problem is that the Org has decided that the benefits of the plug n play outweigh the drawbacks. They can solve it with the power of placement, but choose not to. They try to balance the two worlds. DGS and placement doesn't just go to the big fancy camps, but also to the small interactive camps.

But it has already been decided. This years theme was the last word on that. The wealthy are to be viewed as necessary benefactors. Their behavior excused so long as they provide sufficient funding for the creative class.

IMO it is a policy that is grossly demeaning to both the creative class AND the wealthy. Money doesn't make you incapable of swinging a hammer, or cooking a meal, or riding a bike. No one needs to make it easier for the wealthy to attend Burning Man. It's already easier. They don't need to scrimp and save. They don't need to sit at a computer for hours trying to get a ticket. They don't need to rent an RV the day after they get home from the burn.

And the excuse that by bending our principles to let them in will let them step outside their bubble and open them to the Ten Principles is bull. They've been encouraged to bring their bubble with them.

For the record, I am by all measures wealthy. Maybe not Paris Hilton wealthy, but there is nothing stopping me from staying at a fancy Plug and Play besides my own sense of worth. If I can do it, so can Paris. Well maybe not her. But others.
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by lucky420 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:38 am

Yep Larry and the gang sold out a while ago...
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Simon of the Playa » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:20 am

vulture chow nailed it.


watched this and started crying.

it WAS so beautiful.

it can be again.



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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Slaphappy » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:40 am

Vulturechow I think we agree wealthy folks (what a vague term) are and always have been a part of things, wealth and/or EDM music are not the issues at all. And I flew into BRC with a bunch of gear early Monday, yes the airport serves a great purpose in thinning the huge entry delays early on. But certainly not by mid-week. I was astounded to hear my pilot say his team's busiest day was still four days away (Friday).

The fundamental issue is the Principles....and it's hard to make a case for radical self-reliance, communal effort, decommodification or even participation when you're only on site for 24 hours and you've paid to have every last thing handled for you. That's the DEFINITION of commodification. Hell that's not even enough time to need a shower much less help with something or to help build any type of community.

Your assessments regarding preferred placement, money blatantly buying preferential treatment, and any violations (moop) being ignored seem spot on, and certainly factor into the problem. It sure seems like BMOG has the ability to improve the situation if they wanted to.
Last edited by Slaphappy on Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by vargaso » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:46 am

VultureChow wrote:But it has already been decided. This years theme was the last word on that. The wealthy are to be viewed as necessary benefactors. Their behavior excused so long as they provide sufficient funding for the creative class.

IMO it is a policy that is grossly demeaning to both the creative class AND the wealthy. Money doesn't make you incapable of swinging a hammer, or cooking a meal, or riding a bike. No one needs to make it easier for the wealthy to attend Burning Man. It's already easier. They don't need to scrimp and save. They don't need to sit at a computer for hours trying to get a ticket. They don't need to rent an RV the day after they get home from the burn.

And the excuse that by bending our principles to let them in will let them step outside their bubble and open them to the Ten Principles is bull. They've been encouraged to bring their bubble with them.
This is it right here. Until the BMORG policy on plug n play changes, it's only gonna get worse for a while until the shiny happy people find some new shiny happy thing to do.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by mudpuppy000 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:19 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:slaphappy is very astute, and i think this is another watershed moment in our history.

how do we as a community contain and minimize the impact of monied interests pushing product on the playa?

dj's are product, and a commodity now, the game has changed dramatically as huge dollars are involved.

brad tem nailed it...just exactly what is the motivation behind spending millions on "sound camps"?

simple...it's the best guerilla publicity money can buy and is worth every penny to a promoter.

one pic in Rolling Stone can be used to monetize a "burning man brand"

robot fart handing out logo / branded sunglasses is a perfect example of this activity.

its branding, plain and simple, any marketing professional will see it for what it is.

commodification, and not very well camoflaged either.

its an experiment in temporary community, not a fucking dirt rave.

those that use the burning man platform as a means to leap into the world of commodification and benefit from "esplanade cred" as an agenda are doing it way wrong.


just my humble opinion...
Our regional ended up having to ban large scale sound due to noise complaints from neighbors. At first I thought it was terrible but 4 years in it's probably the best thing that could have happened to the event. There's a few smaller sound systems but it's pretty much all just small theme camps doing their thing, or having their "city burn" from VC's example.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by JayBobBoy » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:26 am

My "Radical Acceptance" has it's limits and the negative impacts of the PnP camps have reached that point for me. For the most part, the guests of the PnP camps are the victims (although willing) in this too! They have chosen the luxurious option simply because it is available to them. Why fly coach when you can easily afford first class. Yes, they are arrogant, entitled and not very participatory, but only because we have given them the option to do so. Eliminate that option and see what happens. Those that really want to attend will find a way to get there in luxury.

Among all of these issues, this is the one that burns me the most:

I've tried to get tickets the last two years without luck. All the while, these PnP camps are using directed distribution and main sale tickets to make a profit and provide compensation to their staff. How many of us were excluded so that the rich and entitled could have their camp built for them and keep their servants close at hand?

While I don't condone the type of vigilante vandalism that happend at White Ocean, I doubt very much I'd turn them in if I knew who did it...
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Wrath » Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:17 am

Slaphappy wrote:OMG I gots all the answers with all my RULES!!! JA WHOL MEIN BURNER!
Don't put the rest of us in chains just because you don't like the way a few people run their show.
Corvus wrote:There unfortunately a number of burners -- real burners -- who just can't leave their day job that long.
So. Much. This.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Token » Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:18 am

Make Burning Man Suck Again!

I'm with her.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by bradtem » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:14 pm

A pretty disturbing amount of bigotry in this thread, I have to say. Radical inclusion means you don't demand people be like you, you don't insist there is only one way to experience the city, you don't lump everybody into one basket.

If a camp is leaving too much moop, it should get talked to, and made unwelcome, regardless of who runs the camp and what sort of people camp there. Circling the RVs has been a practice of many camps going back to the 90s, including big, very participatory Esplanade camps -- it is not very friendly but hardly special to plug-and-plays. And since the city size has grown to 70,000 since selling out began, I don't think these PNPs have primary responsibility for the difficulty of getting tickets.

I'm not saying I think PNPs are good and that we want more of them or what they do. But the screeds here go far beyond saying that, and include some pretty inaccurate statements. (The airport, for example, has been around since the 90s, created by private pilots who wanted to take advantage of the world's longest flat plain. It is only this year that it became a serious attempt to reduce road traffic, and even with 8,000 through it, I am not sure it does.)

In spite of all our talk about Burning Man being radically inclusive, it is actually a fairly exclusive event. In fact, the more exclusive it is, the more people want in. You could make it a little harder for the rich to find ways to camp the way they want to camp, but if you did that, you would not stop these camps, you would actually increase demand for them, and let them raise their prices. If I ran an expensive PNP, I think I would secretly wish, "Please, please make it harder and more expensive to run a PNP!"
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Simon of the Playa » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:53 pm

plug and play sound camps are double the trouble.



its like adding gasoline to a fire.



brad tem misses this subtle distinction and combined effect of said camps.


just an observation.


obviously, as we witnessed with the caravancicle kerfluffle, you don't neccessarily have to be a sound camp to be bad citizens.

when the two are present, together, it is a negative influence i'm afraid.

the question is how do we address this AND remain "inclusive".
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Token » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:24 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:
the question is how do we address this AND remain "inclusive".
By realizing that "inclusive" went out the window the first time the event sold out, and is now a thing of the past.

It isn't a question of getting something back to the way it was but of refining the original intent to best fit the new reality.

A real good start is to look at the principles as an indivisible whole rather than 10 individual items and figure how to refine the scripture to the new world order.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by bradtem » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:57 pm

The 10 principles aren't rules of course, other than LNT and the "no money" part of decommodification. They are principles that people noticed the community practicing on the playa and wrote down, mixed in with some principles particularly favoured by the organizers.

At the same time, there is the 11th principle, which derives from LNT and Immediacy which has always surprised me for its absence -- Ephemerality.

But part of that principle is the idea that the city and its principles are not static. You don't encode them, don't cling to them, don't treat them like rules. You live by them if that's how you feel, and know you will find like-minded people also living by them.

And yes, radical inclusion and self-reliance are certainly on the decline, as are several of the others. You can fight to protect them. But generally not by saying, "Do you burn our way or we wish you gone."
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Dr Helix » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:19 pm

I don't think that what's going on will continue much longer. The glitteratti will find a new "thing" to throw money at. Others will tire of the the event itself for all kinds of reasons and stop coming. Numbers will dwindle. 5-6 years from now we'll be back to 40-50 thousand people who just LOVE the event and keep coming no matter what. It's a fairly predictable cycle. You heard it here first.
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by vargaso » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:40 pm

Token wrote:
Simon of the Playa wrote:
the question is how do we address this AND remain "inclusive".
By realizing that "inclusive" went out the window the first time the event sold out, and is now a thing of the past.

It isn't a question of getting something back to the way it was but of refining the original intent to best fit the new reality.

A real good start is to look at the principles as an indivisible whole rather than 10 individual items and figure how to refine the scripture to the new world order.
It's not about inclusive, it's about cracking down on camps that sell the experience of Burning Man. Period. There's a world of difference between camp dues meant to pay for the propane and shade structure, and exorbitant fees that pay for private chefs and Segway rentals. It's fucking obvious to me. If a camp is found to be selling Burning Man luxury getaways, they don't get placement. Period. If the BMORG decides not to do that, then they have chosen to embrace the glitterati set in exchange for the cultural and financial capital they believe they bring.

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bradtem
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by bradtem » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:54 pm

You could deny placement -- not even saying I disagree -- but I suspect if you did, they would still be there, would have people who have early arrival stake out even larger camp space in non-theme territory the moment the gate opens, and defend it until the crews arrive. PNP customers probably don't arrive at opening anyway. And the price goes up, and you have no idea who or where they were, and the moop map is red in some piece of non-theme-camp space so you have nobody to work with to get them to improve.

No, if I were BMOrg I would place the PNP camps in reasonably sized pieces of non-theme-camp area, so that no actual theme camp is displaced for them -- unless they are indeed going to, like any other placed camp, offer an interactive experience to the city.

You can't stop people from selling a trip to Burning Man. At most you just make it harder, which make sit more valuable. You can keep them where you can see them, though. You can even milk them by having a pre-sale. (In theory, this extra money would help fund the community.)
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666isMONEY
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by 666isMONEY » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:20 pm

No, if I were BMOrg I would place the PNP camps in reasonably sized pieces of non-theme-camp area, so that no actual theme camp is displaced for them . . . .
Last year, I camped in non-theme-camp-area across the street from a PnP on D-street, there was constant pre-paid service vehicles at all times of day/night: sewage, gray water, potable water. As you know the trucks have beepers when they back up and they use loud generators to pump the gunk/water, they also circled the wagons, we called it a "Great Wall."

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Simon of the Playa
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Simon of the Playa » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:37 pm

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Token
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by Token » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:57 pm

bradtem wrote:You could deny placement
Not a bad idea. Bring the theme camp areas back to Esplanade, A and the 3 and 9 plazas only and deny the rest of the schmucks.

Maybe like the 2006/7 maps.

Put the villages out on L and be done with the privileged class for directed sales.

It would suck and be cool again.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by vargaso » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:01 pm

bradtem wrote:You could deny placement -- not even saying I disagree -- but I suspect if you did, they would still be there, would have people who have early arrival stake out even larger camp space in non-theme territory the moment the gate opens, and defend it until the crews arrive. PNP customers probably don't arrive at opening anyway. And the price goes up, and you have no idea who or where they were, and the moop map is red in some piece of non-theme-camp space so you have nobody to work with to get them to improve.
It would be an awfully big risk to charge someone 25k without knowing you'll have space to provide them whatever lame-ass luxury experience they are paying people to create. I know from personal experience that the land-grab route is tough even for our little theme camp. The BMORG could also prohibit vendors early access to non-placed camps. That would pretty much do it.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by bradtem » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:13 pm

I had presumed that once the gate is open, people can stake out space and nobody stops them. They don't let early arrivals stake out before gate open, but once it's open you can't tell an early arrival from a newly arrived.
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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by vargaso » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:20 pm

bradtem wrote:I had presumed that once the gate is open, people can stake out space and nobody stops them. They don't let early arrivals stake out before gate open, but once it's open you can't tell an early arrival from a newly arrived.
Once gate opens, there's no way in hell a large theme camp could count on grabbing enough space. They might be able to, they very might not. Also, it's pretty common to unofficially stake out space when you're a non-placed early arrival, but again, no one would risk charging people 5 figures without being certain where they'll be and how much space they'll have. So, problem solved.

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Re: Vandals Strike 2016 Sound Camp Infrastructure

Post by bradtem » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:43 pm

They don't need to know where they will be -- they bring the clients in from the airport or other means. I mean it is nice to know your address in advance, but not the end of the world. If you're willing to be out there in the back streets, past 3 or 9, there is space. Look at this photo from a Tuesday, admittedly 4 years ago but if you can find some Sunday photos from this year I think it's similar.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 514%29.jpg

In particular they have taken to mapping out some "extra streets" on the 7-10pm side every year that allow expansion if the city fills, and have used them sometimes. Anyway, obviously they would like placement, but I don't think it would shut down PNP camps.
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