"Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
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Simon of the Playa
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:52 am

traveller in time wrote:

"Radical inclusion in the extreme would be to tolerate anything.
The minimum to be tolerated will be a level of integrity closely followed by law.
A society can not sustain tolerating anyhting, a society has to exclude the intolerable."



we can assimilate dancers, fuck boys, capitalists, silicon valley, wall st., the blm, BLM, grover, Grover, furries, baldies, sexies, onsies, sadists, masochists, pacifists, fisters, misters, Mistresses and mostresses, Hosts and Hostesses, but


i do not see a nazi in our community as a good thing.


just my humble opinion...
Frida Be You & Me

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lucky420
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by lucky420 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:48 am

No, no nazis, not ever

Nope
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Traveller in Time
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by Traveller in Time » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:20 am

Nazi or nationalist or someone who thinks they belong to a superior group are intolerable toward (any) 'others'.

As I tried to conclude above:
Absolute inclusiveness is not sustainable. Intolerance has to be excluded as a solution.

Saying someone is wrong is neither a resolution nor acceptable.
Trying to change a way of thinking is futile.
  • Being open, unshielded and (no religious concept intended) turning the other cheek
  • Persisting in confrontating intolerant concepts as they will fail
  • Show the way to burn bright
Dreaming a temporary world improving the default world



Not expressing yourself but embracing all other expressions is The Challenge




...I can make anything I can imagine . . . I just can't make _some_ things happen



Have some Free will

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Simon of the Playa
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:54 am

Traveller in Time wrote:Nazi or nationalist or someone who thinks they belong to a superior group are intolerable toward (any) 'others'.

As I tried to conclude above:
Absolute inclusiveness is not sustainable. Intolerance has to be excluded as a solution.

Saying someone is wrong is neither a resolution nor acceptable.
Trying to change a way of thinking is futile.
  • Being open, unshielded and (no religious concept intended) turning the other cheek
  • Persisting in confrontating intolerant concepts as they will fail
  • Show the way to burn bright


very well said.
Frida Be You & Me

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Traveller in Time
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by Traveller in Time » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:01 am

Simon of the Playa wrote: very well said.
Thank you :D
Dreaming a temporary world improving the default world



Not expressing yourself but embracing all other expressions is The Challenge




...I can make anything I can imagine . . . I just can't make _some_ things happen



Have some Free will

WileE13
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by WileE13 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:07 am

National Socialists (Nazis) - Only around for a generation, killed less than 10 million people. Today they are seen as a fringe group that nobody really supports and your odds of even seeing are slim to none.
Communists - Around for hundreds of years, still out marching to this day, killed over 100 million people, destroyed entire nations, have been behind almost every war in the last century and they openly fly their flags in cities around the U.S daily. Furthermore, they have the support of not just wealthy donors but entire countries.

Apparently though, socialism is only scary to the BM crowd if you attach National to it. Otherwise, you can have an entire message board on eplaya.

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Simon of the Playa
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by Simon of the Playa » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:12 am

https://mainerepublicemailalert.com/201 ... -to-roost/


here ya go, chew on this red meat, mr. john bitch, i mean birch...


i mean, you know....cuz 10 miilion ain't shit...


jesus h. fucking Father Coughlin.
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1durphul
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by 1durphul » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:32 am

WileE13 wrote: Communists - Around for hundreds of years, still out marching to this day, killed over 100 million people, destroyed entire nations, have been behind almost every war in the last century and they openly fly their flags in cities around the U.S daily. Furthermore, they have the support of not just wealthy donors but entire countries.
You're confusing political systems (authoritarian dictatorships, democracy, monarchy) with economic systems (socialism, capitalism, communism, whatever.) It is entirely possible to have a democratic communism. You can mix and match each economic system with each political system. Communism didn't kill 100 million people, the dictators running the countries those 100 million people died in killed those people. Our government has violently ended (CIA lead assassinations, coups, etc...) any attempt to democratically elect of a communist leader anywhere it happened on the planet. Do you know why all communist dictatorships have failed so far? It's because all dictatorships fail eventually, regardless of whether they are capitalist, socialist, or communist.
WileE13 wrote:Apparently though, socialism is only scary to the BM crowd if you attach National to it. Otherwise, you can have an entire message board on eplaya.
The Nazi's despite their name, were not socialists, and in fact were harshly anti-communist. See, you have something in common with Nazi's, you both hate communism!
Last edited by 1durphul on Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:40 am, edited 3 times in total.

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jcliff
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by jcliff » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:43 pm

I agree with everyone who's said that the toothpaste is already out of the tube. My suggestion is rooted in what I can do, and that's to get more people into positive volunteer experiences on playa.

Positive report that I can share from Lamplighters....2017 was one of our best years for volunteers in the last few years. We had a Village that was over 50% new this year, and we were sweating it! We were concerned about how we could indoctrinate so many newbies with our Lamplighter mission (light the playa without fail!) and our work ethic. Our Lamplighter Council did yeoman's work pre-event with getting our needs, expectations out to Vets and Noobs alike, and that made a noticeable difference for how we function on playa. During the Burn we had one longtime Vet, (Tinderfoot,) that took it upon himself to make our newbies feel like they were part of a special history and ceremony of Burning Man. I think that this welcoming in to our Lamplighter history and mission must translate to a sense of a larger Burner (Participant!) responsibility.

I think the answer for saving Burning Man culture in general is to have service camps, theme camps, music camps do their utmost best to share the Burning Man ethos through their relationships with their volunteers, campers and guests. The Org isn't going to be able to stem the tide of Burning Man tourists on its own. What the Org can do is demand responsibility, accountability, and adherence to our Principles from camp managers. I think the rest will have to come from the ground-level of Black Rock City veterans.

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some seeing eye
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by some seeing eye » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:12 pm

jcliff wrote: I think the answer for saving Burning Man culture in general is to have service camps, theme camps, music camps do their utmost best to share the Burning Man ethos through their relationships with their volunteers, campers and guests.
Thanks! And agree.

One of our major debates on ePlaya is virgin camp (your experience) vs virgin solo self reliance.

I believe better orientation of virgins happens participating in a camp. Best is a in real life personal connection or connection made by several months of interaction-orientation before the event.

My issue is virgin return in future years.

How can a camp measure their success at orienting virgins to the culture so their virgins become year 2+?

(Ask not what the org can do for you. Ask not what the org can do for itself. Ask what the org can do for camps to help itself!)
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

Burning Compass
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by Burning Compass » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:44 pm

Everyone deserves to go to the Burn. Everyone is allowed to burn how they want to Burn. Everyone Burns at the Burn.

Be the change you want to see in the Burn and the Burn will continue to reflect the changes you wish to see in the world. If we are not liking what we see at the Burn then we need to take a closer look within ourselves and ask why.

Put another way, if you don't like the way things are going go out there and show them just how hard you can Burn. In the end that is all you really can do.

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Lonesomebri
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by Lonesomebri » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:04 pm

Had a tourist at the porta potties ask me were the trash cans were. Had tourist ask if we were a recycling camp as he tried to hand me his can. Had tourists ask if we were a recharging camp for phones. Had tourist conduct business on cell phones will enjoying our shade. Watched on Esplanade as a band played for tourists, the singer bragging that they had just got in that morning and were leaving for their next gig the next morning. That's at least 5 tickets flushed away by one camp. Not a big fan of total inclusion.
"If this is the best of all possible worlds, what are the others?"
- Voltaire, Candide

maladroit
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by maladroit » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:44 pm

A lot of people don't burn at the burn. Let's say that if you did not have to worry about handling anything other than your ticket and your outfits, you didn't burn.

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Jackass
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by Jackass » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:59 pm

Had one of the two "selfie girls" across the street come and ask us where to go rent a bike. After telling her that there is no such thing, she started insisting that they rent them at the airport... whatever. Those tourists left nearly all of their cig butts, glow sticks, veg/fruit tops and duct tape right there in the dirt where they camped. I picked their shit up.

On an unrelated side note, I also got to battle my second rv fire in 6 yrs.!

New slogan this year too, " If you can't pound rebar, pound sand."
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

11th Principle: Depussyfication - Keeping Burning Man potentially lethal. Token

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some seeing eye
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by some seeing eye » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:14 am

It was Mr Jackass if I'm not mistaken who launched the reaction to PnP camps - thanks! I reread my first post in the thread and it's worth the time to do so.

The experiences you had this year of flaws or fails in the culture really need to be sent to feedback@burningman.com or whatever email they set up for this year. They usually run it until mid-October and probably get 10-20K emails.

As detailed as possible, time, place, camp, what happened, rangers involved, etc. is helpful.

And a detailed subject line is useful, including Re:culture, Attn:DMV, Attn:Placement. If there was camp offending, you should also email placement@burningman.org.

Using your burner profile email lends cred, a throwaway email subtracts cred.
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

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Ratty
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by Ratty » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:42 am

Some Seeing Eye, You are absolutely right. Placement begs to know what really went on in their placed camps. It helps if you include your sector and your camp name in the subject line. '4:30 sector Tiger Man Camp' for example. The camp lead will receive an email asking for this info about your good and bad neighbors. This was the first year of placement sending a crew of volunteers around the city to photo and observe. I'm sure it will be interesting to match the photos sent in with the photos taken by volunteers.
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

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Traveller in Time
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by Traveller in Time » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:30 pm

Dreaming a temporary world improving the default world



Not expressing yourself but embracing all other expressions is The Challenge




...I can make anything I can imagine . . . I just can't make _some_ things happen



Have some Free will

wraith
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by wraith » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:48 am

some seeing eye wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:12 pm
jcliff wrote: I think the answer for saving Burning Man culture in general is to have service camps, theme camps, music camps do their utmost best to share the Burning Man ethos through their relationships with their volunteers, campers and guests.
Thanks! And agree.

One of our major debates on ePlaya is virgin camp (your experience) vs virgin solo self reliance.

I believe better orientation of virgins happens participating in a camp. Best is a in real life personal connection or connection made by several months of interaction-orientation before the event.

My issue is virgin return in future years.

How can a camp measure their success at orienting virgins to the culture so their virgins become year 2+?

(Ask not what the org can do for you. Ask not what the org can do for itself. Ask what the org can do for camps to help itself!)
The hard part right now is getting those virgins back on the Playa at all. It's a crapshoot unless you know people or have real deep pockets, and that's not likely to improve.

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some seeing eye
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:45 am

wraith wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:48 am
some seeing eye wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:12 pm
jcliff wrote: I think the answer for saving Burning Man culture in general is to have service camps, theme camps, music camps do their utmost best to share the Burning Man ethos through their relationships with their volunteers, campers and guests.
Thanks! And agree.

One of our major debates on ePlaya is virgin camp (your experience) vs virgin solo self reliance.

I believe better orientation of virgins happens participating in a camp. Best is a in real life personal connection or connection made by several months of interaction-orientation before the event.

My issue is virgin return in future years.

How can a camp measure their success at orienting virgins to the culture so their virgins become year 2+?

(Ask not what the org can do for you. Ask not what the org can do for itself. Ask what the org can do for camps to help itself!)
The hard part right now is getting those virgins back on the Playa at all. It's a crapshoot unless you know people or have real deep pockets, and that's not likely to improve.
Here is where the BORG has proprietary data on whether virgins try for tickets in year 2 with their burner profile.
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

Ano
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by Ano » Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:03 pm

some seeing eye wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:14 am


The experiences you had this year of flaws or fails in the culture really need to be sent to feedback@burningman.com or whatever email they set up for this year. They usually run it until mid-October and probably get 10-20K emails.
Hogwash. This does stuff in some cases, but let's be real here.

My camp has been a part of the 7:00 - 8:00 suburban radial for the entire five-year duration of our existence. We've had the unfortunate luck to be in the middle of ground zero for Turnkey Camps.

There have been four specific camps that we've watched grow since 2013. I don't know if they were around before then, but when they showed up in '13, they showed up in force. The area they were in was unplaced on the map, but flagged out. They had a massive worker operation, confirmed by going up and talking to those folks. A continuous rotation of vendors coming in through point one.

Year one, we chose to submit feedback about all four of these camps. Detailed feedback - with dates, times, and even a few photographs. Not trying to tattle-tale, but seriously - black water dumping on the Playa, clear acculturation issues, clear violation of DMV rules by driving unregistered golf-carts, sound that was clearly too loud for 7:30 and I, and more. It was awful.

Year two, all of these camps were back, and more! So we submitted Feedback, again.

Year three... Wow, all of them are back, again, same spot, blue flags, doing the same thing. Feedback, again. Same deal.

Year Four.... Look at that. There they are. Same places. Same radical exclusion. Same Staff. Same obnoxiously loud noises. This time, though, it appears they upgraded their fleets of bikes to E-bikes. A kid on my street was ran over by a biker. I was hit by a biker. Another person down the street was hit. We reported one specific camp to Khaki three fucking times because they kept having massive parties and spilling out into the street and blocking the street with their trash and bikes.

Year five, this year? THEY ARE ALL STILL THERE, DOING THE SAME THING! ALL OF THEM, PLACED! BLUE FLAGGED! Ever wonder what those massive swathes of yellow and red are on the map every year? We don't wonder, we know them. Ah, side note - one of these camps overflowed out of their placement this year and dropped their containers on actual placed camps. Rangers and Placement literally said, "Not our problem," once they found out which camp did the dropping. I wonder why.

I just want to point out that it took Dancetronauts *one* single bad thing. They acted like dickheads at the Man Burn - boom. Ejected. Gypsy Flower Power had one serious breakdown of their entire camp, boom, ejected, blog post written about them. I know other folks lose and gain placement based on minor things. WHY THE HELL ARE THESE MASSIVE TURNKEY OPERATIONS THAT CONTINUE TO FUCK THE PLAYA UP ON A YEARLY BASIS, ARE VERIFIABLY MOOPING THE HELL OUT OF THEIR CAMPSITE, ACTING IN BAD FAITH AS NEIGHBORS, AND GENERATING A CULTURE OF PRIVATE PARTIES FOR THEIR CAMPERS AND ASSOCIATED CAMPS, ALLOWED TO RETURN ON A YEARLY BASIS?

Gonna throw it out there - fuck Radical Inclusion when it means these things grow. And we're at the point where we have a malignant, boiling, cancerous tumor that we've let grow because "welllll......... lets include them, because we're radical."

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lucky420
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Re: "Burning Man's Culture is in Danger"

Post by lucky420 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:01 pm

^^^^THIS +100
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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