Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

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XXIII
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Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by XXIII » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:20 pm

So I'm curious about this particular issue. Leaving no trace seems to be a keystone ideal of the culture. How does one offset or at least justify the emissions produced by the event? Between music/lights, climate control, logistics to/from the playa, carbon footprint of all the event-specific items you purchase, etc. Air quality seems to be something that is totally overlooked by MOOP reports.

Discuss. :D

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EGAZ
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by EGAZ » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:37 pm

It's like gravity in Space movies....... one just excepts it and doesn't ask why...... 8)
2nd time better than the first. And the first was pretty Freakin' Great!
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Token
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by Token » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:38 pm

Yep, it's all about Tie fighters and X wings making flying noises in the vacuum of space.

Is noise pollution carbon-neutral if I eat some kale?

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some seeing eye
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:43 pm

viewtopic.php?t=76359
https://web.archive.org/web/20151001225 ... mpact.html (2006)
https://carbonfund.org/how-we-calculate/
https://eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front-off ... nal_EA.pdf table 4.2 for 70,000 population in 2016.

I would guess air travel is up since 2006. Air seats get better mpg than a single occupancy vehicle, but people travel long distances in them. Per participant emissions are highest for international air travelers, more than a ton per person each way London to SF. There would be some decrease from Playa Air and a decrease from the Burner Bus.

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WileE13
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by WileE13 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:04 am

Here is another way to think of it, what are your emissions like normally? If you were not at Burning Man, would you still be driving? Using AC? Running appliances, consuming food, creating trash ect... For that week of your existence, do your emissions increase due to being at BM?

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Joeln
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by Joeln » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:58 am

This was addressed pretty well by the Captain...
(italics mine)
Captain Goddammit wrote:People are resistant to "greening" Burning Man because it fucks it up, plain and simple. What are you gonna do to green it? Ban burning stuff? That fucks it up.
Ban generators? That fucks it up.
Ban the big vehicles we drive? That fucks it up, can't bring all the awesome stuff.
Really, whatever you do to put even more rules and restrictions on it just fucks it up.

This is not, and never was, a hippy dippy peace and love tree hugging utopia. It's a party way out in the desert. It's not here to conserve anything.
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motskyroonmatick
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by motskyroonmatick » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:07 pm

Start with changing the emissions it in your camp and during your commute and prep. Burning Man feeds on successful innovation and proven technology. Prove something useful and the multitudes will adopt.... Realistically pretty much everyone doing something big right now is throwing the wallet and kitchen sink at it. Even the Prius MPG is suffering. It's go time. Time to drop the hammer! The tip of the spear in this DO!ocracy is bleeding carbon footprint like a blackbird leaking fuel at take off for a recon run.
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by FlyingMonkey » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:48 pm

Token wrote:Yep, it's all about Tie fighters and X wings making flying noises in the vacuum of space.

Is noise pollution carbon-neutral if I eat some kale?
Depends.

Does it make you gassy?
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BBadger
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by BBadger » Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:56 am

That "air quality MOOP" just wafts away like all the other MOOP at the event. It just travels by wind rather than car. Plus, most of it is not generated at the event, but by everyone trying to get to the event.

If we expand the definition of MOOP to include air pollution, shouldn't we also consider the garbage that gets hauled out of the event for the LNT as also MOOP because it ends up polluting some environment even if not the playa surface itself. It goes somewhere right?

In the end, if these environmental problems really mattered that much to us all, we'd end the event altogether. Nearly every aspect of this event attempts to undermine any kind of resource conservation or impact short of preserving the ground we're on so that we can camp on it the following year.

The whole concept of Burning Man is profligate. It's a giant one-week party of over 80,000 people in the middle of a desert in the nowhere land of a virtually empty state they used to test nukes on. It attracts people across the entire planet who not only fly in, but also drive to the playa with all their rented or temporary gear like everyone else. The event provides virtually no utilities or community resources that reduce costs and consumption. So everyone drags in their own individually packaged versions of such resources in their vehicles. We build these outrageously wasteful, nearly pointless vehicles, art pieces, and camps just for our own entertainment -- many of which get burned, so they're not reusable. Whatever does makes it out of the playa is at least partially ruined by the not-so-ordinary dust that doesn't even come off in the rain, but rather starts corroding deeper.

So in light of all that isn't picking on the air quality aspect a little bit ridiculous? It's kind of like concentrating on noise pollution in a war zone.
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FlyingMonkey
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by FlyingMonkey » Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:14 pm

We are LNT because BLM would kick our asses off the land if we weren't. Little consideration is given (by most many participants) to the impact the event has on the Earth or local communities.

Too harsh? After seeing the shit-show down highway 34 & 477 after Exodus for several years and all the couches & bikes abandoned on Playa I don't think we are all hugging trees. (Trees need love too)

Burning Man is a global event attracting people from everywhere and as such it has a gigantic carbon footprint. It's one of the most spectacular events anywhere & you can't be this fantastic and low-C. It's not possible. Is Burning Man's Carbon Footprint bigger than other large events? Probably. Especially when you consider all of our year long activities to prepare for it. Hell, the carbon footprint of the flame poofers alone probably produces as much C-emissions as the Indy 500. I think the only way to offset your carbon footprint it to calculate your individual carbon contribution and simply eliminate an equal amount during the rest of the year. Of course that would mean living naked in a cave because everything you do, eat, wear, and use has an associated footprint. In short I don't think it can be done.

We can all make changes in our lives to reduce carbon emissions but there is no going back and eliminating what you have already done.

A low carbon Burning Man is not an event I'm likely to attend. That's like no-fat Mayo (Satan's work). Hell, we wouldn't even be able to burn the man. We would have to call him recycle & reuse Man. When Placement starts asking for your camp & village estimated carbon emissions then the Man is truly dead (Long live the Man).

Do what you can to save the Earth but the Man will always flip the bird to Mother Nature. We just try our best to clean up after him.
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FlyingMonkey
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by FlyingMonkey » Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:48 pm

Where can I find WWII Nazi Gestapo uniforms. I was thinking it would be fun to go around to camps & serve them with their carbon tax. Of course they would need some work to become steampunk Nazis but its doable.

"Ve have noticed dat your Carbon emission is excessive aunt you must pay ze tax"!
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by BBadger » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:43 pm

I did the math once on the carbon emissions of burning one wood pallet (27kg carbon ~ 100kg CO2), and it was on the order of about 360 miles of car travel in a car that gets 30mpg ( 8.62kg/gal_gas*360mile/30mile/gal ~103kg CO2). The ride to and from Reno to BRC is about 125 miles each way, so a round trip is about 0.7 pallets of wood. It is probably a bit more though, given the stop-and go traffic on the way in and out of the event, so let's round it off to 1 pallet of wood. That's just to get from Reno, NV to BRC and back. If we expect there to be as many cars as vehicle passes (~28,000 VPs), that's on the order of 28,000 or more wooden pallets going up in smoke, just for the last leg of the trip, for the cars alone. It's roughly equivalent to the amount of CO2 released by the giant pallet tower burning in Alesund, Norway (30,000 pallets).

Compared to that amount of CO2 pollution, whatever emissions the Man produces in its bonfire really isn't that much. Plus, how many more wooden pallets worth of CO2 is generated in just one day worth of traffic in major cities?
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EGAZ
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by EGAZ » Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:44 am

I learned a new word today.... profligate.... :coffee:
2nd time better than the first. And the first was pretty Freakin' Great!
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by WileE13 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:16 am

I'm all about putting things in perspective. How do you think Burning Man compares to the wildfires that occur EVERY FRICKING YEAR in Northern California, Oregon, and Nevada? Not even a damn blip on the map. My back 40 burned up a week ago and released more Carbon in a matter of days than our whole farming operation will in my lifetime, and it was just a little fire, only 300 - 400 acres. Burning the Man is NOTHING compared to even 1 second of a real forest fire.

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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by FlyingMonkey » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:46 am

WileE13 wrote:I'm all about putting things in perspective. How do you think Burning Man compares to the wildfires that occur EVERY FRICKING YEAR in Northern California, Oregon, and Nevada? Not even a damn blip on the map. My back 40 burned up a week ago and released more Carbon in a matter of days than our whole farming operation will in my lifetime, and it was just a little fire, only 300 - 400 acres. Burning the Man is NOTHING compared to even 1 second of a real forest fire.
I understand where you're coming from that in the grand scheme of things it's not a significant environmental impact compared to other things like an asteroid impact or volcanic eruption. But I don't think that's relevant to the OPs question "How does one offset or at least justify the emissions produced by the Playa?". It's not as Earth friendly as some would imply.

The only way to off-set your Burning Man Carbon footprint is to not produce an equal amount of Carbon emissions at some other time. Good luck with that considering that many of us try to go every year.

Burning Man by it's very nature is not very ecofriendly when you consider the year long prep, travel to & from the event (often in large vehicles that get 5-15 MPG), the actual combustion that occurs at the event and the trail of broken trash bags leaving the event. I know the Playa Restoration Team works incredibly hard & does an outstanding job cleaning up after us so in that respect we are environmentally responsible. But overall it's an extravagant spectacle that we indulge in that doesn't need to be justified because it's so freaking fantastic. There's a damn mechanical octopus shooting flames in the air. How do you justify that? Probably not the PC answer but I don't feel guilty being honest.

Why only focus on off-setting your Burning Man Carbon Footprint? Consider other things in your life that can be eliminated.
Bacon.png
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Dr. Pyro
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by Dr. Pyro » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:42 am

Are you really suggesting we eliminate bacon??? Why, that's just crazy talk.

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FlyingMonkey
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by FlyingMonkey » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:35 am

Dr. Pyro wrote:Are you really suggesting we eliminate bacon??? Why, that's just crazy talk.
Yes Doc, yes it is.

One year we brought a smoker & gifted smoked bacon. It was great.
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Token
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by Token » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:23 am

FlyingMonkey wrote:
Why only focus on off-setting your Burning Man Carbon Footprint? Consider other things in your life that can be eliminated.

Bacon.png
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Heretic!

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FlyingMonkey
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by FlyingMonkey » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:44 am

Token wrote:
FlyingMonkey wrote:
Why only focus on off-setting your Burning Man Carbon Footprint? Consider other things in your life that can be eliminated.

Bacon.png
FM ... you are fired! Check in with security on your way out.

Heretic!

Shame ... Shame ... Shame ...
Hey, I'm bringing 5 gallons of Bacon Smoked Red Ale to the party can I at least be on double secret probation?
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Token
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by Token » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:50 am

Only if you serve it with bacon garnish.

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Token
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by Token » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:53 am


Hey, I'm bringing 5 gallons of Bacon Smoked Red Ale to the party can I at least be on double secret probation?
BTW, where in the process did you add the bacon to the wort?

Was it real bacon or some other flavor infusion method?

Did the fats interfere with fermentation?

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FlyingMonkey
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Re: Leaving No Trace in Regards to Carbon Emissions

Post by FlyingMonkey » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:17 am

Token wrote:

Hey, I'm bringing 5 gallons of Bacon Smoked Red Ale to the party can I at least be on double secret probation?
BTW, where in the process did you add the bacon to the wort?

Was it real bacon or some other flavor infusion method?

Did the fats interfere with fermentation?
It's an extract (I have no idea how it's made) that gets added at flame out. Otherwise it's just a Smoked Red Ale. I wasn't going to bring it because I find it kind of gimmicky but people seem to like it. Besides, it's a great way to strike up a conversation with people walking by camp. "Hey, want to try a Bacon Beer?". To be honest I'm more excited about the tequila IPA.

No bacon farts. That's what the air trap is for :oops:
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