Buying Land For Burning Man (hey that rhymes!)

[MoisturePup]

Let's stick a dreaded 'what if' here:

What if the BLM were to deny Burning Man a permit one year and BMorg decided to go out and buy a large parcel of land somewhere to hold the event. I'm curious how the legal issues would change, and law enforcement issues would change, if the event were held on private land instead of public land.

Would the legal issues for throwing this type of event on private land be better or worse for the LLC and individual participants?

It seems to me like individual participants would be better off, while the LLC themselves would assume much more legal responsibility. Or am I wrong?

[Chai Guy]

First of all it's a very big IF, Burning Man is the largest permitted event on BLM land and that permit provides the BLM with it's single largest source of revenue (about $600,000).

http://www.blm.gov/publications/LawEnforcement_text.htm

http://www.publiclandsranching.org/html ... income.htm

So the first thing that comes up with Private Land is the RAVE ACT for those that are unfamiliar take a look here:
http://www.emdef.org/s2633/

Beyond the Rave Act however, you still can't just buy a piece of land and invite 35,000 of your closest friends to come over for a party. There are still permits to aquire and part of that permit process will include police and fire protection. The city/county/state is going to want to know how you are going to provide security and fire protection and they will also want to charge you for their services. Same holds true even for Tribal Land, the local non-tribal government is going to be asking the same questions. In one case in San Bernardino County, CA. the Sherriff's Dept issued an event promoter a bill for $200,000 for an event that occured on Tribal Land.
http://www.co.san-bernardino.ca.us/bosd ... s92701.htm

And then you still have to get insurance (which becomes even more complicated when you own something tangible that people can sue you for, like a big piece of land).

[MoisturePup]

First of all it's a very big IF, Burning Man is the largest permitted event on BLM land and that permit provides the BLM with it's single largest source of revenue (about $600,000).

http://www.blm.gov/publications/LawEnforcement_text.htm

http://www.publiclandsranching.org/html ... income.htm

So the first thing that comes up with Private Land is the RAVE ACT for those that are unfamiliar take a look here:
http://www.emdef.org/s2633/

Beyond the Rave Act however, you still can't just buy a piece of land and invite 35,000 of your closest friends to come over for a party. There are still permits to aquire and part of that permit process will include police and fire protection. The city/county/state is going to want to know how you are going to provide security and fire protection and they will also want to charge you for their services. Same holds true even for Tribal Land, the local non-tribal government is going to be asking the same questions. In one case in San Bernardino County, CA. the Sherriff's Dept issued an event promoter a bill for $200,000 for an event that occured on Tribal Land.
http://www.co.san-bernardino.ca.us/bosd ... s92701.htm

And then you still have to get insurance (which becomes even more complicated when you own something tangible that people can sue you for, like a big piece of land).

Thanks for taking the time to type all of that out. Interesting answers. I was thinking it would be a heavier burden on the LLC, while a lesser burden on the individual attendee. The RAVE ACT really does throw a wrench in the works, it might even be considered an unconstitutional limitation on the ability of people to peacably assemble.

[Chai Guy]

They way I look at is that your the portion of your ticket that goes to BLM (about $600,000 collectively) is your "Party Tax", it allows the government to look the other way on a lot of stuff that would get you arrested if you tried it on Main St., USA.

That tax is going to get paid one way or another. If you cut the BLM (read "Feds") off and move it to another, private location, they will still exact that tax from you in the form of fines, tickets and permits, oh and the local politicos are still going to have their hand in your cookie jar too.

Want to try it on Tribal Land? You just added another layer of bureaucracy to the mix, and another hand in the cookie jar.

For another way to go about it, check out the Rainbow Gathering, a group that meets on Federal Land and has (at least in the past) avoided seeking permits and fees or naming any formal organization (though their tactics seem to be changing as of late). This group has seen harrasment on the part of Law Enforcement, yet they continue to gather every year (at a different location each year).
http://206.168.38.1/www.welcomehome.org ... sregs.html

http://206.168.38.1/www.welcomehome.org ... story.html

http://206.168.38.1/www.welcomehome.org ... _cops.html

[Iago]

Last year the Rainbow folks hit Alturas, Ca like a swarm of locusts. You couldn't believe how happy the locals there were to see us burners come back though again. I mean they were welcoming us with open arms and this was the first time I had seen this in 7 years. I was at the Black Bear resturaunt for breakfast and asked ask the waitress if there was some place I could buy water to fill a 50 gallon barrel of water. She sent me over to her house where she had a hose out on the lawn for us and did not want a dime from me..! Ya, we have our element that I wouldn't trust either, but on the whole we are a whole different breed and the locals saw it after the hassles they went through with the rainbow crowd. By the way, I'm an old hippie from the 60's and wouldn't trust the rainbow people (and fuck 'raeggae on the river' too, while I'm at it) as far as I could throw a bong, but they sure set a perfect example of irresponsibilty. OK, I stepped on some toes and I'm sure there are well meaning rainbowers, but they need some kind of wake up call. I am still amazed that Burning Man seems to keep pulling it off year after year. Doesn't mean I'll stop whining though...

[Chai Guy]

Yeah, I didn't mean to point to the Rainbow Family as example of model behavior. I was trying to demonstrate that, yes there is a group that (mostly) avoids the permit process altogether.

There is an arguement for that I believe. I mean as tax payers, we've already paid for that land, we've already paid for the BLM Rangers, so why do we have to pay for it again?

[joel the ornery]

There is an arguement for that I believe. I mean as tax payers, we've already paid for that land, we've already paid for the BLM Rangers, so why do we have to pay for it again?

it is the same logic that taxes us for interest paid on savings accounts, inheritance and investments, IMHO.

[Mister Jellyfish Mister]

I'm ready to buy a chunk of dirt just to store my crap on. Storage fascility prices are outrageous and you can't work on things there.

[Steven bradford]

What if the BLM were to deny Burning Man a permit one year and BMorg decided to go out and buy a large parcel of land somewhere to hold the event.

This was tried in 97, the first year with tickets, (my first year). It was nearly the last Burning Man. BMORG, didn't buy the land, but it was held on private land, and as others pointed out, suddenly everyone is involved. Counties, the state, and the feds. Plus local politicos in Reno who can make easy points by appearing to be cracking down on satanists and druggies.

[MoisturePup]

I'm ready to buy a chunk of dirt just to store my crap on. Storage fascility prices are outrageous and you can't work on things there.

How much does land out in Gerlach go for? I wouldn't mind buying a piece of land and putting a shed on it to store some stuff in.

[Chai Guy]

http://reno.craigslist.org/rfs/75803518.html