Holding space for other camps etiquette????

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golgotha-a-go-go
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Holding space for other camps etiquette????

Post by golgotha-a-go-go » Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:19 am

May I start a discussion on the habit of burners who arrive early to cordon off large chunks of land for friends in non-theme camp areas? I arrive early and sometimes come upon half-blocks sealed off with police tape and no one in sight that claims it. What's the protocol?
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stuart
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Post by stuart » Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:02 am

it's bullshit and they should be taken out to the fence and shot. It's this kind of abuse that makes it tough for the rest of us early arrivers.
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MissNev
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Post by MissNev » Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:35 am

It ensures that some of us who are unable to arrive early can still be a part of the camp that we work all year to make special for the wonderful people of the Playa. I arrive on Tuesday, and it's nice to be able to find my friends and family and know that I have a place to camp with the people who make burning man special for me. I am just as much a part of my camp as anyone, I contribute my time and money, and because I have other responsibilities, I greatly appreciate that my place is held for me.
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This Woman
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Holding Space

Post by This Woman » Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:21 pm

It's probably a theme camp. You will risk shooting the very person that came to make your experience a wonderful one. I don't know the statistics, and not inclined to research it, but there are plenty of theme camps that don't register, but still need their space. Our camp has morphed in the last six years from a lowly, non-shaded bar into a mecca that offers anything from a well chilled drink to dinner to shampoos & shaves to showers to body dice games and more. We simply could not do that if our members had to be scattered across the city. Yet we have decided year after year not to register, so that we can maintain a neighborly atmosphere and not morph into a nightclub or something. It's also fun to see how long it takes our past patrons to find us.

I understand the annoyance in a way because lately we have had problems staking our chosen destinations due to volunteers of registered theme camps taking advantage of getting to come in early and then staking sites that are not associated with their theme camp. I choose to take a live and let live attitude about it. I find that the playa provides. If you end up in a place that was not your choosing, you usually meet the best sort of neighbors or find that it is upwind of the sanis or some other benefit you had not considered. If your heart is really set on a cordoned site, and you are humble in numbers and space needed, I would just wait for someone to show up and ask if you can join them.

Last year we joined w/a group we didn't know, and they were unfortunately very hostile to a young lady that chose to set her site inside our cordoned area. It was not pretty, and we were embarrassed by their behavior (learning experience), but we made it up to her by asking her to join our section of the cordoned area. We made a fantastic (utterly) new friend and so did she - 17 or so.

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Post by MissNev » Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:24 pm

Most excellent post, Woman!
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swampdog
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Post by swampdog » Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:46 pm

So last year I was leading a small caravan of clueless virgins around the playa looking for a place to camp. We went out a few streets, but it seemed like EVERYWHERE was taped out. This was Monday afternoon - not like we were slackin' into town on Wednesday or anything. We looked for people to ask, but there was nothing and nobody, just acres of staked-out playa. We finally settled at about 3:15 and Uranus (I'll pause a sec while y'all make "yer anus" jokes.) It was a decent place to camp, we had some pretty good neighbors, but we weren't in the thick of things and I think I'd have had an even better burn if I hadn't had to go out to the boonies just to find a camp spot.

If you want to reserve space, why not register your camp? If not all of you arrive at once, why not have the early arrivers anchor your corners and then fill in from there? Why make it harder than it has to be for the new kids? This year I'm camping with a village, but if I were coming back unaffiliated again I'd be pretty tempted to just camp wherever I felt like it and let the tapers camp around me.

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This Woman
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Holding space

Post by This Woman » Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:02 pm

I'm just saying it's [i]probably[/i] a theme camp. You certainly will not find our camp staking then entirely leaving, though I know it happens. Our early arrivers find an uncordoned space and stake the amount of space needed just like individuals, but our space is larger. There is never just space w/out sign of habitation. Cordoned space w/o any habitation is a sure sign of someone coming in early (or getting a pal who has early access) and then leaving the playa completely until they are ready to camp. It is very rude, and annoyance is in order. I personally would move on down the road mumbling expletives under my breath all the while. I would rather deal w/my own personal annoyance than risk some new rule or something by making a case of it. But that's just me and I have previously labeled myself a live and let live kinda girl.

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Nightterror
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Re: Holding Space

Post by Nightterror » Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:02 pm

This Woman wrote:It's probably a theme camp. You will risk shooting the very person that came to make your experience a wonderful one. I don't know the statistics, and not inclined to research it, but there are plenty of theme camps that don't register, but still need their space. ..
Not to be rude but I must take exception to a few points.
You will risk shooting the very person that came to make your experience a wonderful one.
My friends and I don't require others to make the experience wonderful for us.
but there are plenty of theme camps that don't register, but still need their space.
We don't have a theme camp and we need our space too. And if we put out the extra effort and sacrifice to be there first, we should have the first right to choose the space.

I agree with live and let live, however to rope off 5000sq ft (50x100) and not have anyone camp in that space until Wednesday is just rude and shouldn't be allowed.

NT
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swampdog
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Post by swampdog » Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:10 pm

I'm a live & let live kinda guy too. There absolutely should not be rules about this. It's an etiquette thing. Golden rule oughta just about cover it. I'm just trying to illustrate the negative side of the land-grab experience so people can recognize what they're doing unto others, possibly without realizing it.

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This Woman
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Post by This Woman » Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:16 pm

Hardly rude, NightTerror. I already responded to one of your points, but here's another: I get off in many ways by nurturing others, so part of my experience is bringing joy to others. I don't expect to bring you joy if you want nothing from me. There are plenty out there who do, and they usually find me. Your requirements are your own concern, and I wouldn't presume to name them let alone provide them.

I did also want to mention that there are good reasons not to register a theme camp. Among our camp we debate every year whether or not to register, and so far, not registering has won every time. Next year it may not. We know best whether or not to register our camp and it really doesn't affect the topic at hand one way or another.

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swampdog
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Post by swampdog » Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:38 pm

Well, registering a camp does, actually, affect this topic. If the folks who staked out big chunks of land were registered it seems to me that the BMORG would have the opportunity to include their needs in space planning and they would have their required space all staked out on their behalf in the reserved areas and not have to do a land-grab in the "open" areas.

I'm not saying it's for everyone, I don't know the details of costs & benefits of registering, but it's certainly relevant. If you want reserved space, there's a way to do that. If you want first-come first-served, then you're served when you come.

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Nightterror
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Post by Nightterror » Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:39 pm

Great point Dog on the Golden Rule.
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Post by the fire elf » Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:02 pm

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HughMungus
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Re: Holding space for other camps etiquette????

Post by HughMungus » Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:11 pm

golgotha-a-go-go wrote:May I start a discussion on the habit of burners who arrive early to cordon off large chunks of land for friends in non-theme camp areas? I arrive early and sometimes come upon half-blocks sealed off with police tape and no one in sight that claims it. What's the protocol?
Works for me. As others have said, probably space reserved for those arriving to their camp later and puts the more-participatory camps close to the action (as opposed to the participatory camps having to camp far out just to get enough space).

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This Woman
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Post by This Woman » Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:12 pm

Hey SwampDog, My siting irrelevance lacked detail. I've already established that I am in complete agreement that staking land w/out at least some members camping there from the onset is beyond rude. Therefore, our theme camp's space considerations are not relevant to the topic because we don't do that.

Also, If any other non-registered theme camp isn't doing that then it is irrelevant as well. So it stands to reason that the only thing relevant to the topic is whether or not non-registered theme camps are doing this rude thing, not whether or not they are registered.

The playa always has enough room for everything, and those themers that register get the benefit of reserved space. Those who don't register have the same first come - first served that individuals have. It all comes down to etiquette. If an unregistered theme camp stakes and leaves then maybe a nice protest is in order. Maybe you could sing them a stinging song via megaphone or give them stake & ditch anti-awards or do an article for the BRGazette. There is certainly no shortage of rude behavior on the playa. Well, less than Babylon, but you understand. no?

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swampdog
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Post by swampdog » Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:17 pm

This Woman - I think we agree more than disagree. Thanks for the thoughtful discussion.

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Post by Isotopia » Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:39 pm

I understand the annoyance in a way because lately we have had problems staking our chosen destinations due to volunteers of registered theme camps taking advantage of getting to come in early and then staking sites that are not associated with their theme camp.
Actually, I think it's bullshit for the most part. There's NOTHING to stop a coordinated, forward thinking group of folks from registering their camp so that placement can take place. That way when the gates open there's no requirement that you arrive early. Your place will be there for a reasonable amount of time (up till around Thursday I believe.) Another thing to mention is that there will be NO landgrabbing by other camps arriving early. That's been a problem in the past and we caught shit from some folks when they found that stakes and ropes had been pulled from areas outside of designated theme camp areas. We were really crying a lot that day we felt so bad. Once the gate opens it really is a free-for-all and anything NOT zoned as a registered camp should be considered fair game. Half block long increments of 'reserved' space will not be tolerated.

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Post by MissNev » Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:27 pm

Considering that our camp is still relatively small, I don't anticipate that we will be registering in the future. It's the way that our camp has decided to enjoy our experience. The free for all is part of the allure. We have been on the outskirts, we have been in the middle of things. Either way works. It's never been a problem, and I don't anticipate that it will be in the future. It is rather offputting to arrive when the gates open only to find large areas staked out and no one claiming ownership. This is the rude behavior that we are all referring to. I certainly hope that Iso/Badger and/or whomever else has the authority to curtail the behavior will do so. Over the years, it's become ridiculous that those with early arrival privileges so blatantly abuse the privilege. As far as I'm concerned, wherever we happen to place our camp becomes the prime area.
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This Woman
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Post by This Woman » Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:00 pm

Somehow I think I will manage to live despite the fact that Isotopia assumes our group is uncoordinated and backward thinking. Considering the use of an all encompassing word such as "NOTHING", I feel confident that I am more forward thinking than Iso on this topic. Especially since I gave at least two reasons for not registering in this discussion already - however invalid Iso finds them. I never asked for nor expected anything less than fair game. I am a defender of fair game.

I see your (and maybe I am assuming incorrectly here) apparent desire for rigid structure as counter-productive to what BMORG says Burning Man stands for. I see nothing wrong with having the option of registering available, but not necessary. I hope that BMORG agrees, but I don't need them to. That's the tricky thing about endorsing radical self expression - some people might actually take you at your word.

Here is another reason I think should be good enough for a theme camp not to register without being considered backward and uncoordinated: because they don't want to.

FYI - We have always been in compliance with the requirements necessary to be a registered theme camp; we simply choose not to register.

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Post by ZaphodBurner » Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:24 pm

swampdog wrote:Well, registering a camp does, actually, affect this topic. If the folks who staked out big chunks of land were registered it seems to me that the BMORG would have the opportunity to include their needs in space planning and they would have their required space all staked out on their behalf in the reserved areas and not have to do a land-grab in the "open" areas.

I'm not saying it's for everyone, I don't know the details of costs & benefits of registering, but it's certainly relevant.
There is no cost associated, just some paperwork. We (3 vets, 12 virgins) registered as a theme camp and were given 50'x100' of space at 3:30 and Amnesia...near Apokiliptica, PlayaQ, Hookahdome, etc... The space were were given exceeded our expectations and all we have to do is be set up by Monday.

I can see theme camps reserving space in the boonies, perhaps, but a polite compromise would be a sign or something that says "This space will be occupied by Camp Whatever starting Tuesday...etc, sorry for the inconvenience."

-c
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stuart
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Post by stuart » Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:50 pm

We have always been in compliance with the requirements necessary to be a registered theme camp; we simply choose not to register.
this statement is oxymoronic. In reality, the prime requirement is not much more than registration.
Here is another reason I think should be good enough for a theme camp not to register without being considered backward and uncoordinated: because they don't want to.
That certainly is your choice. Please be mature enough to handle the consequences of that choice. Registration takes some work. The reward for that work is guaranteed real estate. If you are not willing to do the work then you should accept treatment like any other non-registered attendee.
Considering that our camp is still relatively small
I don't see this as an excuse for a lack of registration if you have large, specific land needs and plan on grabbing. I did an esplanade camp with 5 last year.
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This Woman
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Post by This Woman » Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:37 pm

[quote]Quote:
We have always been in compliance with the requirements necessary to be a registered theme camp; we simply choose not to register.

this statement is oxymoronic. In reality, the prime requirement is not much more than registration[/quote]

Sigh...I meant we map our site and have a cleanup plan. Registration strikes me as a means to guarantee real estate and advertising and nothing more.

[quote]Quote:
Here is another reason I think should be good enough for a theme camp not to register without being considered backward and uncoordinated: because they don't want to.


That certainly is your choice. Please be mature enough to handle the consequences of that choice. Registration takes some work. The reward for that work is guaranteed real estate. If you are not willing to do the work then you should accept treatment like any other non-registered attendee. [/quote]

Well thank you, Stuart. I'll really try.

Incidentally, it's not about the work. We PREFER being treated "like any other non-registered attendee." If the work were an issue, we wouldn't bother with a theme camp at all (I know, absurdly obvious, but I had to say it).

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This Woman
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Hey how come my quotes don't work like everybody else's?

Post by This Woman » Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:43 pm

Oldie to the Burn, but newbie to posting messages. Sorry if my last was unclear....I'm either using my quotes incorrectly or they don't work. I humbly prostrate myself to your collective wisdom.

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stuart
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Post by stuart » Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:58 pm

Registration strikes me as a means to guarantee real estate and advertising and nothing more
that is absolutely correct in my opinion. It seems to me, though, what we are discussing is getting the real estate without the hassle of registration.


no worries on the formatting, btw.
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Post by Badger » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:25 pm

I certainly hope that Iso/Badger and/or whomever else has the authority to curtail the behavior will do so.
Authority? I have no authority. I just do it because it seems like the right thing to do.

Oh and This Woman, I wasn't suggesting that your point was invalid. I'm just saying that it's bullshit that some people get in on a Monday and think that scarfing up half a fucking city block like it''s a Missouri homestead rush is fair by any measure. It ain't. Quite different when a group comes in and sets aside a parcel that's, say, equal in measure as they one they've (reasonably) set aside for themselves so that they can be with a small group of friends. Quite another when you randomly annex prime real estate because some ass and 100 of their best friends were too fucking lame to pull their shit together and get placed like other folk.
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Post by swampdog » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:27 pm

I think there's a continuum here, from 1) "have someone stake out a big chunk of land before anyone shows up", which I think everyone here agrees is evil, through 2) "first arrivers stake out about how much space they think the whole camp is going to take" to 3) "you register or take space one bite at a time while your camp shows up"

This Woman seems to be in group 2, which seems reasonable to me - as long as the ratio isn't too out of whack, such as 1 car staking out 50' x 100' till Wednesday.

Seems to me that she might as well register, but she chooses not to. Which is fine with me to.

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Post by shitmouse » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:40 pm

i think the way to make "reserving space" for camp works, is if your realistic about your camp and expectations. be fair and and calculated when getting out there and whom will require what space.
we've non-declared camp for years in hopes to bring the community together on our block and have great returns, with paying respects to not taking what ever land is there, but just what we need.
(it makes for good community too sometimes when camp is packed-in with random neighbors that you'll eventually get to know, so be light with land grabs)

just be respectful.
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Post by Zulegoona » Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:05 pm

Would there be something that would induce people to register there camps, if they require some particular amount of space? I really don't understand the point of " because we don't want to " I suppose by not registering you can have who ever is there to save your space pick and choose the location instead of having to accept the space assigned to you. If advertising were the problem maybe there could be an unlisted address or something though I don't know how that would work other than enabling unregistered land stakes to be remover.

I don't have any real solutions. I just see the first come first choice idea as not working fairly if 1 person can claim space for 100 people to waltz into mid week. It smacks of having the chuffer, holding a space outside of the theater so you can arrive fashionably late just before the performance. What is there to prevent an enterprising person with some stakes and a roll of tape from becoming a real estate broker?

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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:34 pm

Well what about the ettiquette (assuming it is "legal" at all...)? how about;

Any "reserved" space in the un-reserved area (kind of an oxy-moron to begin with...) should;

1) have highly-visible boundries, including camp name and arrival date.
2) have someone camping there to hold it (and negotiate w/ any interlopers). This should be a person, vehicle, and a tent at the minimum.

I say if there are not clearly marked boundries with a camp name AND someone there to hold it, it is pretty much open land. Even if someone is there you can always try to negotiate for some space. Some of our best camps have been shoe-horned in between bigger camps that didn't need all of their space, but needed something we had.

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Post by MissNev » Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:13 pm

I can only answer for my camp, but I am not saying that 1 person arrives early and holds the space for 100 people. In our particular case, we have approximately 10 - 12 people arriving at the opening of the gate, another 6 - 8 people arriving on Monday, and the other 6 - 8 arriving sometime between Tuesday and Thursday. If more happen to come along, that's all the better. The reasons for not registering are different for each person in camp. For me, I prefer the free for all that was the method when this event first started. I like turning what may be considered the less desired areas into a glorious project. I like that people happen upon us and are pleasantly surprised at their good fortune. I like that we open our arms to new additions each year, without filling out a form. I like that we open when we want and close when we want. The ridiculous statement that unregistered theme camps are backward or uncoordinated would be refuted by anyone who happens to see how our camp operates. We are veteran burners who simply choose not to be lumped in with the larger theme projects. We have successfully operated our installment in this manner for the past 5 years, and have been part of the event for several years prior to that. Unless something major changes in the BMORG policy (i.e., any camp with more than 15 members MUST register), I don't anticipate changing.

I love visiting the larger registered Theme Camps. When I'm looking for something on that scale, it's nice to be able to find the camp on the map and read about the project, the hours of operation, the group involved. It erases all doubt about what I'm in search of. I also love to wonder around and stumble into the unregistered, smaller camps. Sometimes I find people that I never knew I was looking for. Our camp falls into the second category. In the default world, I like to attend concerts at huge venues....I also like to listen to unknown artists in the local coffee houses. We like to consider ourselves a local, neighborhood hangout...not House of Blues or Hard Rock Cafe. As I said earlier, we like that you actually have to look to find us. Of course, there will be differing opinions regarding registering vs. not registering. For those who choose to register, I have no problem with your choice. This is our choice for our experience, and in spite of all of the negative feedback on this thread, it's not going to change anytime soon.

Again, I invite all who post or lurk here to come and visit The Liver's End. We are pretty proud of what we do out there.
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