Ice sales benefiting anti-gay organizations.

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MoisturePup
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Ice sales benefiting anti-gay organizations.

Post by MoisturePup » Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:44 pm

First I want to say that I am not against ice sales, as I believe it is a neccessity for food safety on the playa. That said...

The Boy Scouts of America discriminate against gays, whether they be gay children, or gay scout leaders. In any case their anti-gay policies are used to single out and exclude individuals based solely on their sexual orientaiton. They also discriminate against athiests and agnostics, whether they be children or scout leaders. The boyscouts won this right to discrimnate in a Supreme Court ruling issued June 28, 2000 and has since then expelled many of it's members based on the religion or sexual orientation of the scout, or troop leader. Many of the troop leaders that were expelled were themselves Eagle Scouts (the highest level possible for a Scout to achieve) and had transitioned into the role of Scout leaderes as adults. They exemplified the organizations values, with the exception of the fact that they were gay or did not believe the "correct" religious values. (CNN: http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/06/28/ ... boyscouts/ )

Unfortunately, in the 2004 afterburn report it seems that Arctic Camp (the official BM LLC ice shop) money was donated to the Lovelock Boy Scouts Association, which as an entity is required to follow the guildelines of the larger Boy Scouts of America for membership.

Because of this new information I must, unfortunately, boycot purchasing ice on the playa. I hope that the BMorg clarifies their nondiscrimination policy to exclude such organizations (and lets us know) so that those of us who care can be certain that our money doesn't go to organizations which seek to hurt those we love.

http://afterburn.burningman.com/04/bizs ... a_ice.html <-- link to afterburn report that contains the list of orgs.

List of orgs that recieve ice money:
We should, of course, mention that ice sales operations once again allowed us to make a series of substantial donations to local Gerlach, Empire and Bay Area organizations. This year's list includes: Crisis Call Center Empire 4-H Club, Friends of the Black Rock, Gerlach General Improvement District (GGID), Gerlach High School (read their letter of thanks), Gerlach Medical Clinic, Gerlach Volunteer Fire Department, Leave No Trace, Nevada Museum of Art, Nevada Outdoor School, Friends of the Library, Kid's, Horses & Rodeos, Lovelock/Pershing Chamber of Commerce, Marzen House Museum, Pershing County Humane Society, Pershing County School System, Pershing County Senior Center, ****Lovelock Boy Scouts Association****, People to People Programs, 23five, Black Rock Arts Foundation, Epic Arts, and The Crucible.

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<plonk>

Post by joel the ornery » Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:24 pm

<plonk>

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Re: <plonk>

Post by MoisturePup » Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:32 pm

joel the ornery wrote:<plonk>
What exactly does "plonk" mean? If it means I'm being a troll, I'm not. I assure you that upon hearing this news many BM gays and supportive attendees are going to be less than happy, some might even be upset. Many organizations, including entire cities, no longer contribute to the boyscouts because of their discriminatory policies. A lot of people have worked hard to make these changes in their companies, and cities donation policies, and it's a bit upsetting to see that the BM LLC has not been as careful.

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Post by Kinetic IV » Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:54 pm

In the overall scheme of things is the donation substantial enough to warrant making a big deal out of it? I fully understand the desire to not support a homophobic group and you covered the national issue. Then again this troop is not in a highly populated area. I've been to Lovelock and I'd hate to be a kid out there...there's not that much to do. If the donation was small I'll bet little if any reaches the state level let alone gets to the national scene, I bet it's all consumed at the local level. IMHO I'll make a small tradeoff to help at the local level while thumbing my nose at a national group's policy.
</Soapbox>
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Post by Lassen Forge » Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:59 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:... Then again this troop is not in a highly populated area. I've been to Lovelock and I'd hate to be a kid out there...there's not that much to do. If the donation was small I'll bet little if any reaches the state level let alone gets to the national scene, I bet it's all consumed at the local level. IMHO I'll make a small tradeoff to help at the local level while thumbing my nose at a national group's policy.
</Soapbox>
My thought EXACTLY. See, thing is, I *was* raised for quite a while in a small Nevada town. You don't know what you miss until you don't have it anymore. Going to Yerington or Fallon was a "big deal", Reno was "the City", and San Francisco was like a foreign country. You don't have squat in places like Round Mountain... or Caliente... or Hawthirne... or Gerlach.

One of my big happy things is knowing the ice sales benefit those kids. I wish the profits from the Cafe went to the same place. Serious. I would much rather the kids get the benefit than it go into someone's pocket. Once you've been there... some big org's (like BSA) policys kinda pale to what the community is like. And until you've lived in the 1/2 horse town, it's hard to envision those other 50 weeks a year...

Hugs from there or here or somewhere...
BBS

>>shrug<<

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Post by MoisturePup » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:10 pm

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:
Kinetic IV wrote:... Then again this troop is not in a highly populated area. I've been to Lovelock and I'd hate to be a kid out there...there's not that much to do. If the donation was small I'll bet little if any reaches the state level let alone gets to the national scene, I bet it's all consumed at the local level. IMHO I'll make a small tradeoff to help at the local level while thumbing my nose at a national group's policy.
</Soapbox>
My thought EXACTLY. See, thing is, I *was* raised for quite a while in a small Nevada town. You don't know what you miss until you don't have it anymore. Going to Yerington or Fallon was a "big deal", Reno was "the City", and San Francisco was like a foreign country. You don't have squat in places like Round Mountain... or Caliente... or Hawthirne... or Gerlach.

One of my big happy things is knowing the ice sales benefit those kids. I wish the profits from the Cafe went to the same place. Serious. I would much rather the kids get the benefit than it go into someone's pocket. Once you've been there... some big org's (like BSA) policys kinda pale to what the community is like. And until you've lived in the 1/2 horse town, it's hard to envision those other 50 weeks a year...

Hugs from there or here or somewhere...
BBS

>>shrug<<
In regards to this not hurting the kids...that's not true. I knew I was gay at the age of 5. I didn't tell a single person until I was 16, that's 11 years I had to silently accept that those kids were talking about me when they talked about "faggots" and "ass pirates" and the latest rumor about whatever New Kid On The Block having semen pumped from his stomach. It is something that every gay kid has to deal with, some in silence, and some forced out of the closet because they're just a little queer acting. It is ugly, it is painful, it can be violent, and too often it is deadly.

I was a member of the boy scouts, but that was before the official ban. Had this ban been in place and I were forced to be a part of the BSA by my parents I can only imagine the further degredation I would've had to endure in silence.

You can bet that part of the money will end up back in the hands of the national BSA as a percentage cut of the contribution. So when anybody says that the official stance of the national orginization doesn't hurt the kids, they're wrong, it's hurting plenty of kids, and the BM LLC is footing the bill with their contribution.

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Post by MoisturePup » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:24 pm

Here is a story from two weeks ago, from LIBERAL Tampa Florida. I think it illustrates the sort of consequences that gay bigotry can cause. In this case you have to ask yourself where the father's level of hate came from, and what the child could possibly have actually done to bring this on himself. Did the father feel that his actions were acceptable at the time, and where did he get that impression?

http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/07/071405childMurd.htm

Thought Toddler Gay, Dad Kills Son
by Fidel Ortega 365Gay.com Miami Bureau

Posted: July 14, 2005 12:01 am ET

(Tampa, Florida) A 21 year old Tampa man is charged with murder after his 3-year old son was pummeled into unconsciousness and then died.

Ronnie Paris Jr. went on trial for his own life this week in a Tampa courtroom. The toddler's mother, Nysheerah Paris, testified that her husband thought the boy might be gay and would force him to box.

Nysheerah Paris told the court that Paris would make the boy fight with him, slapping the child in the head until he cried or wet himself. She said that on one occasion Paris slammed the child against a wall because he was vomiting.

The court was told there had been a history of abuse by Paris. Prosecutor Jalal Harb said that in 2002, the Florida Department of Children & Families placed the child in protective custody after he had been admitted to the hospital several times for vomiting.

He was returned to his parents Dec. 14. A month later he went into a coma and was rushed to hospital. Six days later he was removed from life support and died. An autopsy showed there was swelling on both sides of his brain.

"He was trying to teach him how to fight,'' Nysheerah Paris' sister, Shanita Powell told the court. "He was concerned that the child might be gay.''

Following the child's death Tampa police Detective Anthony Zambito thought there was something suspicious. He testified that he questioned both parents closely at the hospital. But it wasn't until investigators questioned them separately Feb. 1 that the boy's mother talked about the abuse.

Paris was charged with capital murder and Nysheerah Paris was charged with felony child neglect and faces a maximum of 15 years in prison.

©365Gay.com 2005

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Post by Badger » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:39 pm

Because of this new information I must, unfortunately, boycot purchasing ice on the playa.
Maybe put your ideals where your mouth is Pup. Ever think about making a real statement and boycotting the event altogether. It really would be the noble thing to do were you as committed to social injustice as your post would have us believe. I mean, extrapolate your argument to the logical end (using your particular logic tree) and one could argue that the Burning man event is homophobic. Fuck, you sound like one of the Stanford students who's made the choice to protest <insert politcal outrage here> by fasting for a day by not going to Stars or the French Laundry restaurant.

Thanks for the laugh.
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Post by Isotopia » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:43 pm

Now go get Badger's faggot ass a fucking drink for rightfully slapping you in your place. And get me one too.

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Post by MoisturePup » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:27 pm

Badger wrote:
Because of this new information I must, unfortunately, boycot purchasing ice on the playa.
Maybe put your ideals where your mouth is Pup. Ever think about making a real statement and boycotting the event altogether. It really would be the noble thing to do were you as committed to social injustice as your post would have us believe. I mean, extrapolate your argument to the logical end (using your particular logic tree) and one could argue that the Burning man event is homophobic. Fuck, you sound like one of the Stanford students who's made the choice to protest <insert politcal outrage here> by fasting for a day by not going to Stars or the French Laundry restaurant.

Thanks for the laugh.
Yeah, teaching anti-gay bigotry is a real laugh riot. All those dead faggots, PHEW! OH MY GOD, I'M GOING TO PASS OUT FROM LAUGH SO HARD!

Har-de-har-har, that father who killed his 3 year old toddler because he thought he was gay, while apparently THE ENTIRE FAMILY didn't stop him from beating up the child despite KNOWING what was going on, that's some funny ass shit! Oh man! Dead fag babies! ha!!!!

Nothing wrong at all with supporting organizations that teach bigotry!

HAHAHA.

Oh my GOD, I'm laughing so hard!

Oh man, there is no parallel here at ALL between country clubs that keep blacks out, and boy scouts keeping gays out. It's not like it's teaching hate...

</sarcasm>

As for not going to BM, the BM LLC doesn't give portions of ticket revenue to the BSA. Your argument is a non sequitor.

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Post by helitack » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:39 pm

Hmmm....boycott buying ice, and by extension you should boycott all theme camps that keep the drinks/food cold that they are sharing with ice bought on the playa. And since the scouts/families that live locally benefit by all the business that is brought to the area, hmmmm, no Ding Dongs (tm) at the Empire store...........................
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Post by MoisturePup » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:46 pm

helitack wrote:Hmmm....boycott buying ice, and by extension you should boycott all theme camps that keep the drinks/food cold that they are sharing with ice bought on the playa. And since the scouts/families that live locally benefit by all the business that is brought to the area, hmmmm, no Ding Dongs (tm) at the Empire store...........................
Helitack, in this case I know of a specific source of revenue for the Boy Scouts of Lovelock, and that is the Burning Man Ice sales. I do not know which businesses in Gerlach, or Lovelock, or Empire for that matter support the Boy Scouts or any such anti-gay organization with financial contributions. Therefore it doesn't make sense to avoid doing buisiness with those towns buisinesses. If, however, I do become aware of other specific instances, I will avoid to the best of my ability seeing them recieve my money.

What would you say if the Burning Man Ice Camp revenues were going to a Country Club or Golf Club that didn't let blacks or other minorities into their membership? Would your response by different? If so, why? Don't the families that belong to those Country Clubs and Golf Clubs have the same desire to enrich their children with entertaining ways to pass their time (negro free of course!)?

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Post by Kinetic IV » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:48 pm

MoisturePup, I would like to offer you one piece of friendly advice. Go click on the www link under Badger's post. Read carefully.

Here be dragons. I hope for your sake that you didn't awaken one with that last post or if you did that he's in a playful mood. On this subject I'm not so sure he will be. I think it's time for me to be going now. Bye!
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Post by spectabillis » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:51 pm

hmmm, please keep the personal comments out of it.

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Post by MoisturePup » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:53 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:MoisturePup, I would like to offer you one piece of friendly advice. Go click on the www link under Badger's post. Read carefully.

Here be dragons. I hope for your sake that you didn't awaken one with that last post or if you did that he's in a playful mood. On this subject I'm not so sure he will be. I think it's time for me to be going now. Bye!
Badger is undoutedbly a big enough man to get that it's sarcasm. I know that Badger is gay, and believe it or not, I still think he is incorrect. And surely, Badger is a big enough man to let contrary opinions (no matter how inflamatory he may view them to be) remain unmolested by a tastey looking delete icon.

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Post by helitack » Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:01 pm

OK, let's look at a hypothetical. A business, Emrock General Store(fictional), Junior Goombah is the proprietor, he is the scoutmaster, his kid Elroy is an eagle scout, Junior employs Katerina, a single mother, Bonifacio, who has 7 kids, three of which are in scouts, should we boycott the Emrock general store because Junior is the scoutmaster? What about Katerina and Bonifacio's kids? Just wondering.
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Post by MoisturePup » Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:02 am

helitack wrote:OK, let's look at a hypothetical. A business, Emrock General Store(fictional), Junior Goombah is the proprietor, he is the scoutmaster, his kid Elroy is an eagle scout, Junior employs Katerina, a single mother, Bonifacio, who has 7 kids, three of which are in scouts, should we boycott the Emrock general store because Junior is the scoutmaster? What about Katerina and Bonifacio's kids? Just wondering.
Helitack,

My opinion would be based on whether or not profits were taken directly from the buisiness and invested as a non-taxable writeoff for that buisiness. If that were the case I would probably boycott the store. If on the other hand Junior were contributing money from what he pays himself (which is different from the stores profits) then I would not boycott the store. Since I'm not calling for an organized boycott, merely making others aware that it is something I'm considering, it is my hair to split.

Now, please answer the second part of my last response. If the Ice sales money were going to a Country Club that didn't allow blacks in, would you have the same objections to boycotting the Ice sales? If not, can you tell me how any membership based organization discriminating against somebody on the basis sexual orientation differs from one that discriminates against people on the basis of race?

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Post by Elemental666 » Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:26 am

Here's the rub, what you need to make this stick is a list of the business's and orginisations that contribute to the Boy Scouts. Right like all of them, the whole list. Then take a look at it and see where the biggest and smallest slices of this huge pie go. Now look at all the places you do business...

What happens if you find out that your Power Company donated say 500k this year to the Scouts on a county level...

You gonna cut off your power?

Given the size of this troop, the size of the donation (how much did BMORG donate?) and the location of this troop, do you think the money made more difference for the Scout ORG or the Scout TROOP. Now, put that on the side for a second and consider this. Did BMORG provide to your community a place where you accepted for whatever you are? To express yourself in what ever manner you saw fit? To come together with people of the same orientation, and the other orientations, as one community? Does the BMORG provide a near religious experience for you?

Is it worth the stink to boycott a donation to a small troop of kids with limited resources because of the Master Org behind it that doesn't even notice the contribution in their books?

Injustice happens to everyone, everyday for no good reason. If I was a kid in that troop, gay or not, in the closet or not, and I heard about you and your band of activists cutting into the resources that enables my troop to do what ever the troop is doing... I'd do my best to put my scout training to the test and sabotage your camp, by stealing all your ice, every day, for the whole week... (That's not aimed at your personally, just saying when I was that age, I didn't take kindly to people having fun spoiling my fun). I realize that's not the "boy scout way", but in the sticks, "our way" is more important than THE way.
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Post by helitack » Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:07 am

Well, I don't play golf, so the country club thing doesn't work for me.
Now the BSA won the right to discriminate in court. The real world aint pretty, nor is it fair. So if you feel the need to boycott, then you need to do it right, like Cesar Chavez. Balls to the wall or nothing.
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Post by EvilDustBooger » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:06 am

I would boycott Nevada if I were you.
They allow Boy Scouts in Nevada.
California too I think.
Those bastards.

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Post by Nightterror » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:15 am

I wear my "Eagle Scout Dad" pin with pride.
I express my excitement by brutally interrogating whomever is nearby

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Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:25 am

Oh poof. I can certainly understand why moisturepup doesn't want any of his money to go to such a sickening organization. And truth be told, the fact that in many ways it is a great organization makes it even worse that it sticks to such ridiculous, vile ideas. BBSue also has a great point about those small towns, BSA may actual save some kids from simelier horrors. We all get to make our own choices about what we patronize and why. Heck, here's my pledge. If I spend any money on ice, I'll send the same amount to Scouting for All, and organization dedicated to ending that policy. Many former Eagle Scouts who could not stand that crap and who still stand by what they experienced apart from homophobia belong to that organization.
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Post by EvilDustBooger » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:56 am

It is an issue of wording.
I think it all boils down to someone in authority`s ideas of how best
to protect our children when they are out of our sight and camping with relative strangers.
They should have worded it to include Sex in general.
It should read: We won`t allow your childeren to be molested; mentally or physically....and have accountability measures in place.
(Then they might make a provision for swift sterilization by shotgun blast for those proven to be sexual predators.)
Personally I wouldn`t want anyone proclaiming a sexual preference or espousing the benefits
of hetrosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, any sexuality......with my child.
Why do we put so much garbage in front of our kids to sift through...
They are children
innocent
trusting
mommy & daddy kissing
Children

Next.

Guest

Post by Guest » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:01 am

Nightterror wrote:I wear my "Eagle Scout Dad" pin with pride.
Gay Pride?

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Post by MoisturePup » Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:03 am

EvilDustBooger wrote:It is an issue of wording.
I think it all boils down to someone in authority`s ideas of how best
to protect our children when they are out of our sight and camping with relative strangers.
They should have worded it to include Sex in general.
It should read: We won`t allow your childeren to be molested; mentally or physically....and have accountability measures in place.
(Then they might make a provision for swift sterilization by shotgun blast for those proven to be sexual predators.)
Personally I wouldn`t want anyone proclaiming a sexual preference or espousing the benefits
of hetrosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, any sexuality......with my child.
Why do we put so much garbage in front of our kids to sift through...
They are children
innocent
trusting
mommy & daddy kissing
Children

Next.
EDB,

Acknowledging that your being gay happens to be an attribute you possess, and discussing the benefits of that atribute are two different things. In the cases where the scouts and troop leaders have been kicked out it was merely for acknowledging that they are gay.

I know for me when I think about the purpose of disclosing that I'm gay, it's as much about giving people an accurate representation of myself as it is for them to be able to properly string togethor sentences which contain gender identifiers. (For example if they are speaking of my significant other they should know whether or to use the word he, or she.) Beyond knowing what gender identifier to use, I doubt that I'd really bring up much else regarding my orientation. It's clearly not apropriate for any adult to be discussing sex with any kid that is not their own, gay or straight. Acknowledgment of being gay is not discussing sex.

-Rob

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Post by Lassen Forge » Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:36 am

theCryptofishist wrote:...BBSue also has a great point about those small towns, BSA may actual save some kids from simelier horrors.
...
Thanks, Fishie, that was the point I was trying to make (that Moisturepup didn't get)... Most people who weren't raised in that environment don't have the concept. Not their fault - it's just they don't understand... It really *is* a different world. And without things for kids to do, without putting something into the commnity (like a park or scouting or school activities or whatever) there's nothing for the kids to do *except* get in trouble.

The thing is... IF you live (or have lived) in Gerlach (or Caliente or Hawthorne or Eureka or wherever) you know the alternatives are... well... nil. You do what you can, and accept whatever resources you can, because without those resources you got... nothing for your kids.

If you don't like where the money from Arctica goes, don't buy their ice. Get dry ice from some private company. Of course, it's owner *may* be a hyperconservative gay bashing SOB who gives heavily to anti-gay orgs, but at least then you're not supporting the local Gerlach Scout troop. >>shrug<<

And... If you don't like local Gerlach politics, Whether it's because they have a Scout troop or whatever, then move there, and become a part of the community. Otherwise... it's neither your place or my place to say.

/rant...
BBS

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Post by Nightterror » Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:36 am

EDB is gay? aaahhaahahahahaha aaaahahahahahaaaa


Xvirgin wrote:
Nightterror wrote:I wear my "Eagle Scout Dad" pin with pride.
Gay Pride?
Parental Pride - My son is the most mature, responsible, interesting, fun (I could go on and on) young adult I know. Eagle Scout takes years of hard work and determination that results in a great contribution to the community.

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I express my excitement by brutally interrogating whomever is nearby

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Post by Guest » Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:39 pm

Nightterror wrote:Parental Pride - My son is the most mature, responsible, interesting, fun (I could go on and on) young adult I know. Eagle Scout takes years of hard work and determination that results in a great contribution to the community....
Ahhh - thats so nice you're a proud daddy.

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Post by EvilDustBooger » Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:41 pm

Nightterror wrote:EDB is gay? aaahhaahahahahaha aaaahahahahahaaaa


You are an evil man.
You know how I admire that.

---------------------------------------------------------------
---------Training Module for Scoutmasters------------
"Bobby the Androgynous 6 year old" (as most are)

enter Bobbi: "Mr. Yangmeister?"
Leader: "Yes Bobby?"
Bobbi : "My brother told me he was gay, ....and kids at school are
calling me gay. And I really like the Popsicle man because he`s always so nice and brings such sweet treats...do YOU think I`m Gay?
Leader:(frantically searching his "Scouting Correctness Manual Algorithm Chart for Sex Questions") .....
....."Well Bobbi er,..I mean Bobby...that is kind of a personal question, that you might want to save for your mom or dad,...but don`t worry, everything will be fine. Just be true to yourself, and you have plenty of time to work those things out when you get a little older....Now....
You show me your "Full Carrick Bend"..."
Bobby:"Like this?"
Leader: "Perfect. Now do a "Clove Hitch"..."
Bobbi: "Here."
Leader: "You the Man Bobby!...now do a Butterfly knot, and I`ll show you how it can really save your skin when you are hanging off of a ledge trying to rescue someone who`s fallen.
Bobby:"Mr. Yangmeister?"
Leader:"Yeah Bobbi?"
Bobbi:"What does "Gay" mean?".......
.................

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cornelius
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:28 pm
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: Shortfuse, Robotronia, PoPCorn Palace
Location: Orbiting Black Rock City in my satelite base-star
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Post by cornelius » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:51 pm

It's ice.
The money goes to tiny rural communities.
Simmer down.
ROBOTS UNITE

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