Ice sales benefiting anti-gay organizations.

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playasnake
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Post by playasnake » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:29 pm

Ok... Boy Scouts. Thats one.

You used plural in your subject... what are the others? Or was it less inflammatory in the singular?

Now for some drift....

Its good to see that the Nevada Museum of Art gets some $$$ though... I wasn't aware of that (glad my time wasnt totally wasted here).

Will Bruder actually credits his design inspiration on the black rock desert... and its indeed the coolest building in Reno.

www.nevadaart.org.
e pluribus unimog

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Post by MoisturePup » Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:03 am

playasnake wrote:Ok... Boy Scouts. Thats one.

You used plural in your subject... what are the others? Or was it less inflammatory in the singular?

Now for some drift....

Its good to see that the Nevada Museum of Art gets some $$$ though... I wasn't aware of that (glad my time wasnt totally wasted here).

Will Bruder actually credits his design inspiration on the black rock desert... and its indeed the coolest building in Reno.

www.nevadaart.org.
I have to say this, because I feel it's important...

It's interesting that the Burners I've brought this thing to the attention of have for most part responded with a shrug of the shoulders, or they make a joke of it, or they say that the poor boys of Lovelock need their anti-gay organization to keep them entertained. But, never does it seem any of the people responding in this thread considered the THOUSANDS of gays that attend Burning Man, and have to fight small battles like this everyday in order to survive, might feel about this.

To me, it's disapointing and shamful the level of apathy that has been shown on the discussion boards I've posted regarding this issue. Many of your responses sadened and frustrated me.

That's all. I'm not going to storm off in a huff, and I'm not going to make any dramatic declarations, but just know that what I typed above here is just to let you know that your reactions wounded me in a way that surprised me as well.

That said, I have recieved information from the BM LLC that, in my opinion, clarifies the matter to a conclusion that I am satisfied with in the short term.

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Post by Nightterror » Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:03 am

MoisturePup wrote: But, never does it seem any of the people responding in this thread considered the THOUSANDS of gays that attend Burning Man, and have to fight small battles like this everyday in order to survive.....

Brother - Homosexuals have not cornered the market on having to fight small battles everday to survive. You might consider skipping the small fights and concentrating on the big ones. It might make life a little bit easier.

Just a few days to go --- Paaaarrrrrtttyyyyyyyyyyyy - I can't wait.

Have a great fucking day, I'll have a snow cone on Playa in your honor.
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Post by Kinetic IV » Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:16 am

That said, I have recieved information from the BM LLC that, in my opinion, clarifies the matter to a conclusion that I am satisfied with in the short term.
Would you consider sharing what the LLC told you?
Having lived in a rural area and growing up as a teen with some serious orientation questions I'm very sympathetic to the plight of kids in rural / remote areas. But...sometimes doing the right thing is not as easy as it looks...the cure can be worse than the problem. Anyway enough from me, I'd like to see how the LLC is responding to this. And I'm sure others would too.
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Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:23 am

Once again I'd like to offer my support to MoisturePup. I work pride every year and I have to say that to this middle aged married woman who's been able to pass as sort of normal for most of her life, that on those two days I feel the liberation and the joy of being able to be sexualy open and honest and real and the concommitant horror of realizing that on Monday, it's back to living in a sexophobic culture. I think homophobia diminishes us all, gay and straight. I know that in the boondocks there isn't a lot for kids to do--but think how much worse it is for queer kids having to stay deep in thier closets. I get on this board and say things like "BM is deeply affected by queer SF culture and is one place where those things matter less." I think it's a complicated issue and I applaude MP for taking it up with the LLC. I'm also going to keep contributing to LYRIC so they can keep that queer hotline for youth going.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Post by MoisturePup » Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:10 am

Kinetic IV wrote:
Would you consider sharing what the LLC told you?
See this thread on tribe:
http://sanfrancisco.tribe.net/thread/2f ... 80&r=10535

Here's the relevant portion of the e-mail:

From the BM LLC:

Thank you for your comments! Your concerns about the Boy Scouts mirror our own. I think a bit of background on this donation will help alleviate your concerns.

Typically the project makes charitable donations to arts and civic organizations that share our principles. But, on occasion we receive requests from other organizations as well. We were quite surprised to receive a request this year from the Boy Scouts since our principles differ
significantly with respect to discrimination. We went back and forth and almost did not fund their request. However, we thought we could use the
opportunity to acculturate the Boy Scouts about Radical Inclusion. Here is an excerpt from the letter we sent to the Boy Scouts:

"We would also like to call your attention to another one of our principles—Radical Inclusion. Burning Man is open to all, which means that
we promote a non-discriminatory environment in Black Rock City. Despite the Boy Scouts' national policy of discrimination against gays and lesbians, we wanted to fund the Lovelock scouts because of the valuable service that you provide to the local community in teaching Leave No Trace principles."

We have received some criticism for the small donation that we made to the
Boy Scouts. However, we hope that the scouts will learn something from us about Radical Inclusion. If the Lovelock scouts cannot demonstrate that they have taken steps to eliminate discrimination in the future then we will take that into consideration next year when giving donations.

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Post by Kinetic IV » Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:35 am

I usually avoid other boards like Tribe and the 3Playa...I'm persona non grata in many locations these days. So I appreciate you posting that message from the LLC. I especially like the part that the donation will be reviewed next year.
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Post by Cabanasprings » Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:17 am

Would it not have been prudent for MPup to have done this research before he came here and implied that ALL Boyscouts are a bunch of homophobic fag haters?

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Post by Sensei » Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:20 am

Your tag line speaks volumes.

Thought you should know.

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Post by MoisturePup » Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:42 am

Cabanasprings wrote:Would it not have been prudent for MPup to have done this research before he came here and implied that ALL Boyscouts are a bunch of homophobic fag haters?
I'm sure I'm going to go to hell for feeding a troll... but...

I did do my research regarding the Boy Scouts of America. I also have lived in Petaluma and seen the work done by Scouting for All ( http://www.scoutingforall.org/ )first hand. I have also been a gay Boy Scout. I fully recognize the difference between the local level and national level of the organization. Despite that difference though a percentage of the LLC's money will be given to the BSA national organization which will then mix that money into the coffers and pay for things like lawyers for fighting court cases to expand their ability to discriminate. That is why I posted my concerns on this discussion forum. Which, by the way, as the name implies, is for discussion. By posting on the eplaya I was signaling to other people my desire to discuss this issue. And discussed it was. I may not have been happy with the responses from certain people, but those people aren't here to make me happy, and I know that.

So, to answer your comment Cabanas, I did do some research.

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Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:44 am

Cabana
While I do think that the Pup did oversimplify a bit, truth is that queer culture is something that you do in many ways end up having to stand up for in mulitple ways. I don't like that the U.S. Gov'ment has institutionalized this orgainizations predudices into law. I don't like that BSA has no sense of humor about the homoerotic undertones of its founders. I don't like reading about gay bashing in the newspaper. And I'm very glad that he shared his concerns with the LLC and feels that they are being responcive and reasonable. Are all Boy Scouts homophobic? No. Do they all belong to a homophobic organization? Yes. I still don't know how to deal with this issue. I do know that holding our toungues will accomplish nothing.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Post by robotland » Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:50 am

I once had a Jewish acquaintance in Ann Arbor who wouldn't ride in Volkswagens, because of the Holocaust. I'm just sayin'.
Howdy From Kalamazoo

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:52 am

I feel a bit funny about Bayer and Thyssen-Krupp sometimes.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Post by Cabanasprings » Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:55 am

Are you implying I'm a troll? Are you a Trollbasher? Careful with the labels please.

So it sounds as though you knew the answer before you asked the question and your intial intent was just to ruffle feathers. To make us aware of the situation while withhholding some pertinent information. Is this correct? That's not a very nice way to play.

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Post by robotland » Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:57 am

theCryptofishist wrote:I feel a bit funny about Bayer and Thyssen-Krupp sometimes.
DEFINITELY boycott Holocostco.
Howdy From Kalamazoo

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Post by Cabanasprings » Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:59 am

FWIW - I don't agree with the BSA policy either but I don't think we should punish the children for it. And I don't think the boys are being brainwashed into a life of homophobia.

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Post by MoisturePup » Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:35 pm

Cabanasprings wrote:Are you implying I'm a troll? Are you a Trollbasher? Careful with the labels please.

So it sounds as though you knew the answer before you asked the question and your intial intent was just to ruffle feathers. To make us aware of the situation while withhholding some pertinent information. Is this correct? That's not a very nice way to play.
Whatever man. You're a winner. Whoopdeefuggindo.

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Post by Cabanasprings » Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:23 pm

MP - I accept your apology.

Thank you.

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Post by Steven bradford » Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:17 pm

Image
Steve

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http://www.seanet.com/~bradford/Body_Painting_Technique.html

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Post by robotland » Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:44 am

I, for one, am quite satisfied with the LLC's position and actions regarding the BSA. I intend to purchase ice at the event this year, and to try to spend some money in Gerlach and Empire where possible. (Definitely buying a shirt, if the nice watertower lady's still there.) And I'll try to think of my gay stepbrother AND my Eaglescout father while I'm in the ice line.
Howdy From Kalamazoo

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Re: Ice sales benefiting anti-gay organizations.

Post by Sean_til_Dawn » Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:08 pm

[quote="MoisturePup"]First I want to say that I am not against ice sales, as I believe it is a neccessity for food safety on the playa. That said...

The Boy Scouts of America discriminate against gays, whether they be gay children, or gay scout leaders. In any case their anti-gay policies are used to single out and exclude individuals based solely on their sexual orientaiton. They also discriminate against athiests and agnostics, whether they be children or scout leaders. The boyscouts won this right to discrimnate in a Supreme Court ruling issued June 28, 2000 and has since then expelled many of it's members based on the religion or sexual orientation of the scout, or troop leader. Many of the troop leaders that were expelled were themselves Eagle Scouts (the highest level possible for a Scout to achieve) and had transitioned into the role of Scout leaderes as adults. They exemplified the organizations values, with the exception of the fact that they were gay or did not believe the "correct" religious values. (CNN: [url]http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/06/28/ ... boyscouts/[/url] )

Unfortunately, in the 2004 afterburn report it seems that Arctic Camp (the official BM LLC ice shop) money was donated to the Lovelock Boy Scouts Association, which as an entity is required to follow the guildelines of the larger Boy Scouts of America for membership.

Because of this new information I must, unfortunately, boycot purchasing ice on the playa. I hope that the BMorg clarifies their nondiscrimination policy to exclude such organizations (and lets us know) so that those of us who care can be certain that our money doesn't go to organizations which seek to hurt those we love.

http://afterburn.burningman.com/04/bizs ... a_ice.html <-- link to afterburn report that contains the list of orgs.

List of orgs that recieve ice money:
We should, of course, mention that ice sales operations once again allowed us to make a series of substantial donations to local Gerlach, Empire and Bay Area organizations. This year's list includes: Crisis Call Center Empire 4-H Club, Friends of the Black Rock, Gerlach General Improvement District (GGID), Gerlach High School (read their letter of thanks), Gerlach Medical Clinic, Gerlach Volunteer Fire Department, Leave No Trace, Nevada Museum of Art, Nevada Outdoor School, Friends of the Library, Kid's, Horses & Rodeos, Lovelock/Pershing Chamber of Commerce, Marzen House Museum, Pershing County Humane Society, Pershing County School System, Pershing County Senior Center, ****Lovelock Boy Scouts Association****, People to People Programs, 23five, Black Rock Arts Foundation, Epic Arts, and The Crucible.[/quote]

Enjoy you warm drinks and spoiled food.

Unless you got the stones to use dry ice.....

:roll:

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:11 pm

day late, $short
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Stilesfamily
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Post by Stilesfamily » Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:42 am

My question would be… Does this fierce integrity run throughout your life or only when it is easy and simple to follow your idealistic vision? If your going to deny the BSA pennies due to there social beliefs, what action do you take on all the other social injustices that fill our day. As a public service message I appreciate this post, but given your aggressive stance on this subject I expect your life must be a quagmire of frustrated discipline (I know mine sometimes feels that way). In the world today it is hard to do little more than breathe without oppressing someone somewhere. If you do lead a life dedicated to making zero impact on the world, I commend you; I wish I had the discipline. If you don’t, thanks for the message and please cool down the rhetoric. Sarcasm aside Badgers recommendation seems logical, why don’t you boycott the event, I would not be surprised if, at the DPW BBQ, a few boy scouts, and even homophobes may have been served food. Where does your view of support end?

P.S. Still trying to figure out exactly what a troll is???
E Tu Brute?

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Post by Kinetic IV » Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:44 am

it is hard to do little more than breathe without oppressing someone somewhere
Your presence means I have less clean air to breathe. I'm oppressed.

Seriously, this thread needs a silver stake driven through it as it's certainly past it's time to go. To help facilitate it's departure let me offer some resources on trolls so everyone can be up to speed on how to ID them.

The Subtle Art of Trolling:
http://www.urban75.com/Mag/troll.html

The Original Usenet Anti-Troll FAQ. (Dated but still spot-on for ID'ing trolls)
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile ... ll_faq.htm

Wikipedia's entries on trolls:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet_troll

And an all time classic, the Anti-Troll song!
http://www.gingicat.org/jacob/troll.html

Beyond offering the resources I have no comment. Read and then make your own assessments of what you see here.
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Post by Cabanasprings » Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:19 am

And next week we will teach you how to make a Pipe Bomb.

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Post by Kinetic IV » Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:40 am

I get your point Cabanasprings. But the post serves a couple of purposes and private agendas so it will stay put. Again your observation is noted.
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Re: Ice sales benefiting anti-gay organizations.

Post by Observer » Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:44 am

MoisturePup wrote:First I want to say that I am not against ice sales, as I believe it is a neccessity for food safety on the playa. That said...

The Boy Scouts of America discriminate against gays, whether they be gay children, or gay scout leaders. In any case their anti-gay policies are used to single out and exclude individuals based solely on their sexual orientaiton. They also discriminate against athiests and agnostics, whether they be children or scout leaders. The boyscouts won this right to discrimnate in a Supreme Court ruling issued June 28, 2000 and has since then expelled many of it's members based on the religion or sexual orientation of the scout, or troop leader. Many of the troop leaders that were expelled were themselves Eagle Scouts (the highest level possible for a Scout to achieve) and had transitioned into the role of Scout leaderes as adults. They exemplified the organizations values, with the exception of the fact that they were gay or did not believe the "correct" religious values. (CNN: http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/06/28/ ... boyscouts/ )

Unfortunately, in the 2004 afterburn report it seems that Arctic Camp (the official BM LLC ice shop) money was donated to the Lovelock Boy Scouts Association,

And now you want to get a boycott of Arctic Camp's ice sales going, in a coercive attempt to micromanage that camp's decisions as to which charities to donate to? Let me drop a radical suggestion on you, one that has been out of fashion for about a generation.

How about if you mind your own business.

Arctic camp sells a product - ice - at a more than fair price, so when they get one's (freely spent) money and one gets their (freely purchased) ice, that money is now their money, and how they spend it is their business. Yet here you are, trying to interrupt their revenue stream, in order to try to force them to make that decision, one that is properly theirs to make, in a manner that meets your expectations.

How do you justify that? "Boy scout troop leader" is a volunteer position. Nobody's livelihood is going to be harmed by losing that job, and there's nothing keeping gay would-be scouts and gay would-be scoutmasters from coming together (err, didn't mean that, the way that sounded) and setting up their own organization. There is, then, nothing particularly coercive about the BSA position, which the BSA has made no particularly aggressive effort to export. If you're gay, you're just not invited to that particular party. There are others.

On finding that the BSA can't be attacked legally in the way you want, you're going to try to undermine their freedom of association by going after anybody who associates with them? How very 90s of you, in the most chickenshit of ways. I agree with Joel. *PLONK!*

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Re: Ice sales benefiting anti-gay organizations.

Post by Observer » Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:09 am

Sean_til_Dawn wrote:List of orgs that recieve ice money:
We should, of course, mention that ice sales operations once again allowed us to make a series of substantial donations to local Gerlach, Empire and Bay Area organizations. This year's list includes: Crisis Call Center Empire 4-H Club, Friends of the Black Rock, Gerlach General Improvement District (GGID), Gerlach High School (read their letter of thanks), Gerlach Medical Clinic, Gerlach Volunteer Fire Department, Leave No Trace, Nevada Museum of Art, Nevada Outdoor School, Friends of the Library, Kid's, Horses & Rodeos, Lovelock/Pershing Chamber of Commerce, Marzen House Museum, Pershing County Humane Society, Pershing County School System, Pershing County Senior Center, ****Lovelock Boy Scouts Association****, People to People Programs, 23five, Black Rock Arts Foundation, Epic Arts, and The Crucible.
And don't forget the individuals and organizations that associate with these scofflaws and scalawags, because as moisturepup has taught us, to be associated with a homophobe is to be a homophobe. It's kind of like the ideological version of AIDS.

In that spirit, then, action must be taken against the groups and individuals who associate with those groups and individuals, and then against the groups and individuals who associate with those groups and individuals ... and so on, and so on. Somewhere around six degrees of seperation out, however, I suspect that we'll make the embarassing discovery that the list now includes everybody, ourselves included. But far be it from me to keep that reality from getting in the way of my showing this idea all of the respect that it merits. In the spirit of true brotherhood and appreciation, I'd like to share an image with Moisturepup, of a man who did much to raise public consciousness about the possibilities of MoisturePup's style of political activism.



Image



That would be Sen.Joseph McCarthy of Wisconsin, and hey, Moisturepup (and so many others like him) congratulations on bringing back the concept of a "blacklisting", complete with the price of ignoring the blacklist being that one is put on the blacklist onself - and in getting so many people to think of the practice as being a source of liberation.

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:12 pm

Um. Checking with the LLC about the policy and saying that you are satisfied with their responce seems a little soft for Joe...
The Lady with a Lamprey

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Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Post by EvilDustBooger » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:33 pm

Senator Joseph McCarthy
inventor of "Radical Inclusion"

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