Don't come to the Thunderdome unless you are willing to pay

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:52 am

Over the weekend I was thinking about this thread and it occurred to me that many of the examples of "gifts" on given in this discussion all had a compeonent of exchange.

The food for conversation example was particularly interesting, there were others as well, but I don't have time to look right now.

tiara, you clarified nicely in your post just above (pg 12.)

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:05 am

Tiara wrote:Not sure if I can add any coherent and/or meaningful distinctions to this debate. But as I read through it, I'm struck by the thought that barter/commerce relates to commodities, be they cash, cotton, pretty shells, salt, or whatever. But the barter/share idea that I think blyslv is trying to get across is related to an experience, specifically the experience of getting someone to step outside their accustomed "comfort boundary" and try something new.

Maybe a shorthand way of distinguising between the two situations is: did something just change hands that only one person can possess? or did something just occur that two or more people could have shared, witnessed, and/or learned from.

On the whole I can agree with this, and, as blyslv said, I think it does a lot to focus the conversation. On the other hand, there are a lot of non-physical things that go into exchanges.

If we consider, for rhetorical purposes, that money is just another item of exchange like any other, then is it not a commercial transaction when i give money to go and see a play? Or, commonly in the activist circle, when I offer some other service to get into the self-same play?

It also seems pertinent to point out that alcohol is an object that someone can posess.

The point still stands for me that once you take away the scenario of commerce - even if the items exchanged are not typical in commerce - then the problem is alleviated.

The challenge for me would be to set up a situation where there is not a value exchange happening, but some shared experience that encourages everyone involved to let those boundaries fall, to share with the community and to enter into interaction that is far more enriching, for everyone, than an item of exchange.

Part of that is that when the prescribed boundaries of the barter are over, parties are more likely to feel that they have fulfilled their obligation and therefore are finished with the interaction. The very nature of it tends to be limited in scope and view. I prefer something a little more open ended.

Is this making ANY sense?

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:32 am

Rian Jackson wrote:[.

On the whole I can agree with this, and, as blyslv said, I think it does a lot to focus the conversation. On the other hand, there are a lot of non-physical things that go into exchanges.

If we consider, for rhetorical purposes, that money is just another item of exchange like any other, then is it not a commercial transaction when i give money to go and see a play? Or, commonly in the activist circle, when I offer some other service to get into the self-same play?

It also seems pertinent to point out that alcohol is an object that someone can posess.

The point still stands for me that once you take away the scenario of commerce - even if the items exchanged are not typical in commerce - then the problem is alleviated.

The challenge for me would be to set up a situation where there is not a value exchange happening, but some shared experience that encourages everyone involved to let those boundaries fall, to share with the community and to enter into interaction that is far more enriching, for everyone, than an item of exchange.

Part of that is that when the prescribed boundaries of the barter are over, parties are more likely to feel that they have fulfilled their obligation and therefore are finished with the interaction. The very nature of it tends to be limited in scope and view. I prefer something a little more open ended.

Is this making ANY sense?[/quote]

Some. Money is not an object of exchange, it is an abstract with no intrinisc value. btw Who called it a "consensual halloucination"? So I have trouble with your first assumption.

I also think that it's easier to keep expecations lower in a barter situation then in a gift situation. But that's me.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:35 am

but you could also say that dressing up in the clothing of the opposite sex is a n abstract with no intrinsic value, can't you?

bear with me, i'm not so much trying to argue as to tease the strands of this apart.

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:44 am

Rian Jackson wrote:but you could also say that dressing up in the clothing of the opposite sex is a n abstract with no intrinsic value, can't you?

bear with me, i'm not so much trying to argue as to tease the strands of this apart.

There's nothing abstract about cross dressing. However I can agree that it has no intrinsic value!

Tease!

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:53 am

there is nothing abstract about money. It represents surplus production. It is information.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:59 am

really EXPLORE the space, Stuart....I gotta fever!

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:01 pm

?que?

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:06 pm

I have a Vending machine-view of barter on-Playa....

If the Barter transaction is so automatic (a vending machine) that the transaction can occur without INTERACTION, then it is bad. Examples; A Bar posts flyers saying "price of admission is 750mL of Liquer" - any dweeb can walk up, hand over the goods, and enter (all without ever really interacting). Aside from the object that changed hands, there is no exchange of value here.

If the Barter transaction is variable (like haggling), it is interactive (requiring give-take discussions, and all the other stuff mentioned above in the haggling story) and both parties get something from it (enetrtainment)...EVEN IF ULTIMATELY THE BARTER FALLS THRU. (Example - a bar is full, the Doorman really doesn't want to let anyone in. But, a person comes up, and over the course of a 15 minute conversation of haggling and questioning, convinces the doorman to let them in "in exchange for a trinket").

So, Good Barter is a Journey, not a destination....

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:12 pm

This is turning into a relgious war. My god can beat up your god. We are all hitler.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:14 pm

both parties get something from it (enetrtainment)...

I find this to be a massive assumption.

in a barter scenario like you describe I find that one party gets power and the other party might be subject to discomfort.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:16 pm

stuart wrote:?que?

RE: your new Avatar.....

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:23 pm

http://www.bustedtees.com/

Nightterror · Post by **Nightterror** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:32 pm

When I posted this initially I was interested in other peoples thoughts on this topic not knowing if bartering was sop for the TD and such entities or not. I was called names, told I was a cry baby, told I didn't know how to post (Thanks GE) and was an all around troublemaker. Bullshit - I hit a nerve. It seems obvious that bartering is part of BM. I disagree with it but thats your business not mine. I like my comfort zone and will transcend it when I want to not when someone else thinks they know whats better for me.

I think this thread shows how BM has actually become a real community by adaptation. Bartering is wrong for BM but at least you always have a choice. Don't like it - don't do it. I bet the Sunni's would like to have that option. Democracy or death what an choice.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:03 pm

I still have a few problems with Nightterror's version of what occured, though subsequent posters mostly seem to have gotten well beyond the snarkiness of his conclusions.

The premise seems to be that two teenage first-timers pestered the Death Guilders to be granted a part in the theater piece that is the Thunderdome, and were in fact granted their wish. Maybe they were sufficiently cute enough to provisionally allow them to battle, but sufficiently dull or annoying so as to inspire Death Guild to set them on a mythical quest as a precondition. Quest completed, battle waged, and life goes on. Death Guild only have so much jam, and owe as much to its participants who hang on the side of the dome to cheer and jeer as they do the contenders, all of whom too quickly puff themselves up for a grand entrance and notorious departure, with furtive airs of theatricality and body odor wafting over and dissipating in the hemispherical confines.

[Exit, pursued by a bear.]

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:11 pm

Please take up discussions regarding not generalising Islam and government with me in another thread, nightterror.

Speaking of pissing people off.

Nightterror · Post by **Nightterror** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:17 pm

Well Bob - I am not sure how to respond to you accusation of snarkieness of my conclusions since snarkieness is well not a real word.

I presented the facts as they happened to me. Bartering for play time led to these two underage shits stealing booze so that they could participate. Either let them in or tell them to fuck off that is my conclusion whether it be snoodiilfried or not.

Nightterror · Post by **Nightterror** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:20 pm

I apologize for the Sunni comment - my bad.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:36 pm

stuart wrote:
both parties get something from it (enetrtainment)...
I find this to be a massive assumption.

in a barter scenario like you describe I find that one party gets power and the other party might be subject to discomfort.

Discomfort can be considered entertainment with the right perspective. Eg- The Temple of Atonement...

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:42 pm

Odd experience. A couple months ago we had a Reuse event at the office and I had a little booth selling my glass crocodiles. (Referenced above in an earlier story.) Somebody didnt' have the money and I let her take one to pay me later. She never did but for one dollar--just not worth a fuss.

Fast forward to today. Cleaning my desk, I found and envelope with a dollar bill and a little note: "Thanks for trusting me." Wow. Now that's an exchance of value.

GuinivereElise · Post by **GuinivereElise** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:05 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:Odd experience. A couple months ago we had a Reuse event at the office and I had a little booth selling my glass crocodiles. (Referenced above in an earlier story.) Somebody didnt' have the money and I let her take one to pay me later. She never did but for one dollar--just not worth a fuss.

Fast forward to today. Cleaning my desk, I found and envelope with a dollar bill and a little note: "Thanks for trusting me." Wow. Now that's an exchance of value.

wow...

how amazing, fishy!

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:48 pm

for those interested, there was a thread about barter in the Q&A section...worth re-reading

Bob A · Post by **Bob A** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:12 pm

geekster wrote:One more thing ..

I think TD is truly a gift. If they ask you in to play, I would bet they would expect nothing in return. However if you walk up there demanding your gift, they have every right to demand theirs ... you call that barter. Whatever.

Maybe its semantics but how is asking demanding? You do an interactive project and someone comes up and asks to interact with it. How do the creators know you are interested if you do not ask? Now if you walk up like you own the place making an ass of yourself truly demanding, then you are an ass. The OP never wrote anything that implied they did anything more than truly ask.

As for the barter, it seems a little harsh to me. TD should give their gift away, find simple ways to limit attendance, maybe theme days, riddles or challenges etc. If people like TD they should gift spontaneously. I did this with a few theme camps I liked. I dropped off booze to one after having had a good time, water to another that needed it.

Now maybe in TD's defense, being a very visible attraction they may attract more than their fare share of yahoos and have developed a defense mechanism. Maybe they don't get a lot of gifts so have started demanding them for better or worse.

Bob A

Bob A · Post by **Bob A** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:21 pm

geekster wrote:
Ranger Genius wrote: I'll wager talking to the guy at the door about it would have settled the matter right there.
EXACTLY. Bitching about it now ... 4 months plus after the end of the event has no point. Why wasn't it brought up when NT first showed up on this forum? Why today? Hmm?

Bitching about it to a bunch or people that can neither fix the problem nor give anything but speculation about it also serves no purpose.

NT ... write to the TD people, tell us what they have to say.

I think it is called a discussion board and this seems to be a discussion. The OP does not seem to be bitching they are bringing up a problem they saw for discussion. Timing does not matter, maybe something good will come from the chat. Maybe someone from TD will read this and look into it. Maybe another camp that was going to do barter will take another look and find a way that is less harsh for their camp to exist.

Bob A

Bob A · Post by **Bob A** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:26 pm

Ranger Genius wrote:And if you were my neighbor and out of gasoline, I would offer you some, even if I had to syphon some from my tank, and refuse to accept your beer (and not just because I loathe beer). I might, however, ask you to give some of the beer to a stranger, as penance for being dumb enough 1) not to bring enough gasoline and 2) assuming that I would require something in return. Most of the people I camp with/near would probably do the same thing, in fact. You may need to join a village. I camp in Hushville, but that's to avoid generators.

Right. I've been to bars that won't give you a drink unless you have something for them...I never stay. I've also been to bars (Yes Camp comes to mind) that won't give you a drink unless you DO something to earn it..makes the bar a little more participatory, and better than just a free bar. When I go out drinking (rather rare) on the playa, I always have a couple bottles of tasty, much demanded drinks in my pockets (the Utilikilt can hold a LOT in those pockets), and give them freely to bars that don't ask for them. That's just about the only way to fight it, I think.

Yes exactly!!!

Bob A

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:38 pm

Based on the title and the first post, this thread seems to be about one man's ire, and one afternoon in the lives of two teenage first-time attendees. Please reset your burnie-meter.

Bob A · Post by **Bob A** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:53 pm

Rian Jackson wrote:
But if people didn't feel that they were being used in some way, perhaps they wouldn't set up barter requirements.

Just a thought...

I think there is the problem. People do their camps year after year and slowly feel put upon or used and barter slowly creeps in. The gift becomes assumed and in the giver's eyes demanded. So they roll their eyes and demand something in return.

I rode around last year giving away hard cider. It was great, one of my highlights of the year. People started giving me things and I was shocked. After the first few and when the shock wore off, I started saying, no that’s ok just enjoy. I got a hug from one girl, I liked that.

Now jump forward 2 -4 years. Maybe I've done this every year making it a little bigger each year. Now I ride down the street and people who have heard about me chase me down asking for cider. Maybe they are just asking and maybe I've been asked 100 times today. Maybe I don't feel I really was offering it at this point in time so I ask them what they got to offer. All of a sudden I've become a jaded old timer. Its time to stop and think.

bob A

bullD · Post by **bullD** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:01 am

if doing the same thing year after year presents negative thoughts/feelings which in turn leads to being a jaded old-timer, then perhaps it's time to re-invent your playa-self.

Just a fucking thought.

Bob A · Post by **Bob A** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:12 am

bullD wrote:if doing the same thing year after year presents negative thoughts/feelings which in turn leads to being a jaded old-timer, then perhaps it's time to re-invent your playa-self.

Just a fucking thought.

Um I was talking hypothetical, in the future, and what happens to other camps. I've actually only done this one year. But I can see how this could happen with human nature. You want to do something again that you enjoyed the year before, trying to recapture the same moment. You succeed a 2nd time and try again and slowly things start to seem different.

An your right everybody needs to be on guard for that and keep mixing things up or take a year off when you feel it happening. Maybe its joining different camps after a few years, changing the camp's goal, or joining a camp if you don't do theme camps usually.

Bob A

Nightterror · Post by **Nightterror** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:27 am

Bob wrote:Based on the title and the first post, this thread seems to be about one man's ire, and one afternoon in the lives of two teenage first-time attendees. Please reset your burnie-meter.

Thank you - that is exactly why I started this post was to help me decide if I needed to "reset my burnie-meter"

I didn't think that BM was about bartering, I thought it was about sharing. I hoped it was about sharing. Thanks to the response I realize that I will continue to believe in the good.