Treatment of Women at BM

[2_rivers]

you should definetly come back!!!

[blackrockcitydreams]

Agreed- we wouldn't all be there if it weren't!
But sadly- the bloom is off the rose in some aspects- I went to my first burn many years ago-thinking the man I was with was perfect- for the very fact he Was a burner- and that the burn would have me surrounded by like minded individuals..But I learned the hard way-thru yrs of being mentally degraded ( this guy should have a warning sticker on his forehead) - just becase he is a burner- doesn't make him cool- or will he somehow treat women with respect.. I don't think a leapord will change its spots in one yr.. I think if a man treats a women one way ( and she is aware he has done it in the past) he will do it again...while the current women he is with- is actually the one he cheated on me with- I still don't wish that treatment on anybody! Just because he says he loves you- and you are buying a house together, and you burn together, and you have sex everyday twice a day....doesn't mean he isn't cheating!

[jaclyn]

Thank you very much for posting this. This was my first year, and I took off my top eventually to meet the same type of response, picture AND video taking. It really bummed my trip and eventually I covered myself back up to prevent it from happening again. I think some people are more conscious of it than others, but to deny it exists would be foolish. Thank you for bringing this to light and allowing me to read the many perceptions on this topic.

Next year when approached by video or camera, I'm thinking of holding up a sign in big black letters that says:

"YOU DO NOT HAVE MY PERMISSION."

[RINGMASTER]

im not saying this is the right answer at all.. i think it sucks for women that guys are rude or disrespectful (although yes it goes both ways) men in general are seen doing it more often..

but...

if so many women have such bad experiences with going topless.. why continue to do so?

i dont know what the liberation of baring your chest means or feels like.. i personally wouldnt ever run around naked out there.. maybe im missing out.. but there is plenty for me to do to keep occupied and happy.

to each his own and we all have different ways of expressing ourselves.. i dunno.. this is a shitty comparison but a comparison nonetheless... if on my way home there is a dark alley where ive walked down it and been jumped before, and i know those people are there waiting to jump me again.. yeah.. it sucks that theyre there.. it isnt my fault.. they're the fuckups.. BUT.. i would still refrain from going that same route.. avoidance altogether seems like it would help

or just being topless within the confines of your camp or with a guy who isnt afraid to chase off the rude ones

i dunno.. i recognize that by choosing to be topless doesnt make it fair game for all the pervs out there to come out and snap photos.. but if you understand that they are in fact going to do so.. plan accordingly

i personally love a nice set of breasts myself.. but i didnt see anything sexual about it at BM (for the most part) and had much more interesting things to observe than the casual naked passerby!

::edit:: either way.. sorry you guys have to put up with it

[jaclyn]

re: ringmaster

I don't think I could ever articulate it better than user Blonde_Iguana did in a forum about a year ago, so I'll paste what she wrote below and hopefully this will provide more insight:

"Tits are not random, separate, floating blobs of be-nippled fat, a la a Woody Allen wet dream. From the moment our breasts begin to appear they are instantly branded as sexual symbols, and because of this stigma they sometimes cause us embarrassment and humiliation, and expose us to a lifetime of unwanted and sometimes scary attention and harassment (although to be fair, they also brought us pleasure and sustained our children as well). We have very deep love-hate relationships with our own breasts. So it is a great relief and tremendously liberating to find a "society" in our own mega-tight-sphinctered country that I could trust enough to cast off that lifetime of taboo, fear and embarrassment in an environment safe from exploitation and harassment."

The "if you don't like the harrassment, then cover yourself up" mentality only serves a boundary that [i]you [/i]are comfortable with, but doesn't address the root cause. What if next my breasts [b]were [/b]covered, but my costume brought on the same type of response? Should I then dress in a more conservative costume?

At what point will the people who harrass others be held accountable for their actions rather than forcing the harrassed to accomodate their actions passively?

When can the focus be on preventative action rather than [i]reaction[/i]?

Same goes everywhere, not just specifically BM.

Thanks for your insight, really.

[SED]

Who is more naive?

The guys who think they can achieve satisfaction by making rude comments or ogling, or the women who think they can bare their bodies and not receive this treatment?

Does the answer change when you reverse the order of options?

[RINGMASTER]

Jaclyn - yeah - that is what I was kinda getting at. You're right - it doesn't address the root problem.

I've always found it amazing that in our country where we are so 'advanced', our society's image of sex remains taboo.

I don't think there is ever going to be an easy fix, I just hope that it doesn't hold too many people from having a positive experience at Burning Man

[jaclyn]

I don't think it's really a matter of naivete or ignorance.

A lot of guys find treating women this way satisfying in itself, without having to achieve penetration or even copping a feel.

Based on your logic, a woman should just deal with the fact that they will be sexualized throughout their lives. And if they choose to bare their chests at any time that somehow they deserved or earned mistreatment. Where does the line end? Physically? Verbally?

What if the tables were turned and the standard became men being harrassed and mistreated due to bearing their chest/legs/butt? Would that still be ok? I doubt it. In fact, I'm sure violence on the playa would increase and people would be more likely to tone down their behavior if they knew there were real consequences, legal or otherwise.

I believe as long as we live in a society (not specific to the U.S.) where the standard is to sexualize women, that this behavior will continue to be acceptable in even 'customized societies' such as Burning Man.

It's the action of the community that changes societal perceptions. A "too bad so sad" approach perpetuates the cycle.


-----------------------------------------------------
"Who is more naive?

The guys who think they can achieve satisfaction by making rude comments or ogling, or the women who think they can bare their bodies and not receive this treatment?

Does the answer change when you reverse the order of options?"

[lalag]

Ok, so hopping atop the titty totter is pretty much an invitation for guys to leer, but puhleeze. I was hoping to have a little fun with my husband, not be the object of a boobie spectacle for weekenders. By friday, I was completely comfortable that most burners were "over" boobs.

I was camping near the totter, and each day as I walked by I thought, hey that would be fun. So finally, on Friday, my Husband and I went for it. Just before we had our turn a couple of very attractive women attracted a small crowd of weekenders - some of these guys actually brought lawn chairs over, and click click click with the cameras. The ladies ahead of us didn't seem to mind, and I didn't think much of it, until I asked them to hold off on the photos when it was my turn.

An older, decidedly clueless (German?) weekender was just clicking away, and after taking what must have been 50 photos of girls (much younger and hotter than I) just seemed to start drooling. He acted as if a language barrier was keeping him fron understanding the word no.

I let him slide with a few shots, then just said,you know, that's enough thanks. Even the guys who were loading us on the contraption asked him to chill with the camera. It almost got confrontational, and put a damper on my afternoon.

It took a fair amount of courage for me to get on that thing at all (no less half naked), and those creeps squashed what opportunity I had to enjoy the liberation. I couldn't help but wonder whether someone, maybe an employee or a client, or my dad, might find my photo in some creepy german version of american girls gone wild or something.

ick.
ick.
ick.

creepy guys stay home, please.

[Lady V]

We had a male visitor to our camp who gave this analogy for all straight men:

Imagine you go to B Man, just like always, only this time, when you take off your shirt because it is so freaking hot, dozens or hundreds of other men (stronger, bigger than you), wherever you go, all times of day, start ogling you in a sexual way, trying to touch your chest, follow you around, take pictures of your torso, yell 'come on, you know you want it.' And this goes on the entire week. What would be going through your head? What would you do?

[stew]

Maybe topless women should just have a male friend in their company (gay or pretending to be), returning all the looks and comments for them.

[SED]

A lot of guys find treating women this way satisfying in itself, without having to achieve penetration or even copping a feel.

How do you know that?

Based on your logic, a woman should just deal with the fact that they will be sexualized throughout their lives. And if they choose to bare their chests at any time that somehow they deserved or earned mistreatment. Where does the line end? Physically? Verbally?

I don't believe I offered any logic and I find your inferences faulty. But perhaps I am to blame for your misunderstanding. Where men are concerned, I speak on the presumption that ogling and cat-calling are poor substitutes for sexual gratification. It seems illogical to me that a man who gawks and hoots would then decline an opportunity to achieve orgasm through intimate contact. Since you are presumably female, I can accept that you would not immediately form the same conclusion.

Concerning women, who for good or ill, typically fall on the supply side of the sexual economy, you are more deeply in error if you presume that I believe they deserve mistreatment. A person may leave his or her keys in the car on the assumption that since stealing is wrong, the car will not be stolen. This person does not "deserve" to have their car stolen, nor is the thief justified in taking it. But I think we can all agree on the who the fool is.

Likewise, while you may have the right to walk about with your boobies all a-bobble, and while it may be wrong of Joe Wanker to remark lewdly on your fine rack, no amount of pontificating will alter the equation.

So I think it's pretty naive to think it will.

As for myself, I found a perfect solution to this tired old situation: I tended bar. Dozens of bare breasted women came to me and let me serve them alcohol. Not a one took offense at my complimentary remarks and several asked me if I wanted a squeeze. One even shoved my face into her cleavage.

It all about how you ogle and hoot and how you bare your boobs. If I had tits and I wanted to go around with them out and having guys hoot and leer bothered me, I would avoid places where men are.

Now as a counter example, consider this: suppose I like to masturbate. Just suppose. Now suppose that I like to masturbate in public. I don't want anyone to remark on my activity and I certainly wouldn't want to splash any bystanders. Shouldn't I have the right to do this? Why does society persecute me and label me a deviant? It's my own body, afterall.

Perhaps we can reach a mutually satisfying conclusion--a happy ending, if you will. You walk past me with your boobs out while I jerk off. I will say nothing and will only glance furtively. You may walk as slowly as you like. Neither of us will inhibit the experience of the other and together we can forge the new paradigm.

[skygod]

What would be going through your head? What would you do?

Again, I would like to make a distinction between one's thought's and actions.
There is no excuse for physical assault and it should be punished, of course, But to punish someone for what they think would be, of course, evil.

[SED]

We had a male visitor to our camp who gave this analogy for all straight men:

Imagine you go to B Man, just like always, only this time, when you take off your shirt because it is so freaking hot, dozens or hundreds of other men (stronger, bigger than you), wherever you go, all times of day, start ogling you in a sexual way, trying to touch your chest, follow you around, take pictures of your torso, yell 'come on, you know you want it.' And this goes on the entire week. What would be going through your head? What would you do?

I can't say what I'd do after an entire week of that because I would have left after five minutes.

[Isotopia]

Maybe topless women should just have a male friend in their company (gay or pretending to be), returning all the looks and comments for them.

Thing is I think such people props are ultimately disempowering to women. Kinda along the lines of helpless Polly Purebread and the I'm-so-helpless-I-need-to-stage-a-man-next-to-me-to-feel-safe way of dealing with things.

Your mileage may vary of course.

[SED]

bump

[helitack]

I have never forced a woman to use my stripper pole.

[Jewel***]

that's not what I heard.........

[SED]

Something inside women forces them to use my stripper pole. Sweet mystery of life . . .

[lurker]

Sexual dimorphism exists primarily for one reason--to be 'sexualised'.

I pointed out in the CT photography thread that male nudity, specifically the naked male chest, is routinely sexualised. That this has become so incredibly common that it is taken as a matter of course.

I also posited that the only way to elevate the sexualisation of women to this eay, common, accepted form is to have more of it--without these suddenly prudish, deliberately ignorant reactions.

There is no woman at Burning Man who goes topless or nude who is not aware that the nude female form, unlike the nude male form, is an object of 'forbidden' public display. That, by it's very scarcity in the mainstream, it will excite a reaction completely disproportionate to that of male nudity.

Nude/topless women should not have to suffer being fondled, or touched or worse without their consent. But they have no right to demand that they not be ogled, or thought about, or even called after. Particulary since very few of them have any problem talking about, thinking about or ogling the various nude/topless men that they see. They may be more restrained in their loud commenting, but they are no less prurient in their thoughts.

Part of this stems from a skewed attitude towards sex as exhibited by men, and part from a skewed attitude exhibited by women. Many women want to be free to display their sexuality, to expouse a more primal side of their nature. But many seem unaware that some of the same feelings that motivate them also motivate the reactions of male viewers--namely, the forbidden nature of female sexuality.

Until female sexuality is lifted from the gutter the response from some men will be....childish. They way to do this is more, not less, nudity. More, not less, acceptance from women of the fact that they, like men, are, irrevocably, sexual objects(and that's the one that sets everyone off). Female sexuality must be brought into the mainstrem in all it's naked glory--and women must know that, initially, there will be a period of catcalls and ogling. And after that women will be ogled by men in much the same way that men are ogled by women.

Again, I fault no one who was groped, fondled or otherwise physically harassed, but I do question the sensabilities of those who object to being looked at, thought about, or called after.

[blyslv]

RE: critical tits. Bring a mirror and hold it in front of the yahoo's camera. Get a pack o'peeps to do this and it would be quite interesting.

[Taz]

I just came back from my 3rd burn... Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of things I love about BM. However, one thing I do not care for is that I believe women are treated the same at BM as they are outside of BM. I don't feel that free when I'm out there. I thought it was supposed to be this place where I could go topless if I wanted and not be harassed and I wouldn't have to worry about men making disgusting comments etc.

God I don't know who put that one by you!

I can't count all the times men made disgusting/rude comments/lewd gestures to me, my sister, and women I saw out there. Maybe I was naive to it before, but I saw A LOT of it this year. It was from all types of men, all ages, some dressed up in costumes and some not.

Examples:

I saw 2 young topless women putting in street signs at 3:00 and Chance. They looked as though they had been in the sun all day and were very tired. Across the street, about 4 or 5 men were on top of an art car, shouting down things to them like, "Ooh, look at you girls! Yum! Look how hot that is..." Etc... Then they proceeded to take pictures. The girls looked really annoyed but did not say anything to them.

I got approached on the playa (while out with my fiance and my sister) by a guy from the Canadian eating contest camp. He gave us each a postcard with info about the event. I was fine with this part, I knew I wasn't going to go, and I didn't respond to him, I just took it. He then proceeded to stick his tongue out me, do some lewd actions and say he's worn down many a tongue ring, and that I should stop by...

My sister went to a steam bath with someone from our camp. The guy next to her kept rubbing up and down on her leg while she was next to him, and kept trying to pick up on her, and she had to tell him to back off.

While riding my bike in shorts and a bikini top, I had a guy tell me, "well, what do we have here? Look at that top." The whole time he's staring at my chest.

I heard countless times, men yelling through megaphones at girls things such as, "Take it off" and "Nice rack."

I was watching the DPW parade of cars with my fiance. A girl was standing right on the side of the road with her top off. Two guys in a electric golf-cart type vehicle were mouthing to a driver of one of the water tank cars, "Spray her" and pointing at the topless girl. So, the guy driving the truck soaks the girl with water. Then, I turned to the two guys in the golf cart, and saw them pointing at me and my fiance (who were on bikes), I started moving immediately away but was not quick enough in telling my fiance and he got partially sprayed. He proceeded to flip them off, and of course this ruined our afternoon. The people in the parade were yelling out to the women, "Show us your tits." I was so disgusted by this whole event.

What you see is what you get.

While riding on an art car, a man sitting across from me made lewd gestures with his tongue to me.

While sitting at the front table of my theme camp, some guy came up to me. He was completely respectable when my fiance was sitting next to me. However when my fiance got up to leave, the guy became a complete pig. He made lewd comments, told me his camp needed a maid and that if I go with him to it that they will give me anything I want and need.

etc, etc.. There were countless other things I witnessed.

I believe it.

I just think that a lot of men cross boundaries at BM. They seem to think because it's BM you can do/say whatever you feel. Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty open to a lot of things. If I was seeking a guy or wanted to participate with a couple, I would go to the swingers camp. I do not want to be approached by someone telling me crude comments, I will seek it out myself if I want it.

When people get to Burning Man , they think the boundaries dissolve.

Another thing I noticed is all the sexuality seems to revolve around women... While waiting for the start of a circus-type performance, we have young women scantily clad doing very sexually charged moves... There were countless dance clubs where women were dancing naked or provocatively behind sheets (so you just saw a silhouette), naked women on stripper poles, etc. I just feel like there is still the objectification of women out there.

Yep, they get in the act too!

Why can't there be young men doing these performances?

Though I'm not young , you should have seen me at the whiskey and whores saloon stripper contest.

I don't want men to be objectified either, but if there going to do it to women only at BM, it's kind of tiresome. Maybe I just didn't see them...

It DOES happen . Only men like me aren't bothered by it.

I know this post must sound completely lame. I just think that sex-wise BM is not much different from out in the "real world." Women are still gawked at and treated like sexual objects only.

You're absolutely right! It is no different from the real world. The only thing is that for good or bad , everything is enhanced.

It is just really frustrating to me. The less clothes I wore, the more I was treated like a piece of meat. Previous years I had worn tank tops and this year I graduated to bikini tops. I had been thinking eventually I might go topless, but now I'm completely put off and do not think I ever will.

I know this was a long and boring rant. But, this negative part of BM for me is so big, that I'm considering not going back...

Thanks for sharing with us. Burning Man is NOT for everyone. Everyone I hear from has similar experiences. It is really for the stout hearted and resilient. The reason I put up with all the BS is because despite of all rotten degrading behavior that goes on all around it also opens up all those who are good and generous in nature. Because there is a loosening of the social structure I can meet and share with open people who I would otherwise never have the chance to meet up with or share my interests.
Just find the ones you are comfortable with and ignore all the rotten ones.

[theCryptofishist]

Sexual dimorphism exists primarily for one reason--to be 'sexualised'.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.

Sexual dimorphism exists because the male and the female (or the multiple morphs of males--but that's tri- or quatromorphism--or whatever) have different economic and reproductive lives. Male Elephant Seals are bigger than female Elephant Seals (much bigger) because males have "harums" of up to 100 and they have to be that much bigger to scare off/beat up the other male elephant seals. Male deep sea anglers are much smaller than female deep sea anglers (and there's a bigger size difference here than with the elephant seals) because there's so little food in the deep sea, below the energy producing light and the plants that photosynthesis food that the males essentially have a "parasitic lifestyle" in terms of feeding off the female's bloodstream, except that that way when the female is ready to breed she has a ready supply of sperm--and other members of your species are few and far between, so why not attach yourself to the one you'll need. There are many varients, but I suspect that the differences come first and then the sexualization of the differences within the psyche of the species of animal.

Adn in pheremonic species, there may be little or no dimorphism, but the difference in "smell" is enough for the animals involved.

[theCryptofishist]

There are a lot of people out there who use new agey touchy-feelyness as an excuse for sexual harassment. And then there are those who just do it without apology.

OH god, I hate those hippy guys who believe in free love because they hope it will get them laid!

[skygod]

sexuality exists because it results in more genetic material exchanged and producing more exotic combinations some of which are successful and became us.
Genes are the dominant entity on this planet.

[dragonfly Jafe]

...I think (hope?) most people would agree that doing something that makes anyone feel degraded is a bad thing...but there are a few bad apples in every basket, so to speak.

One way to prevent people dropping cigarette butts is to confront them (and maybe offer them an ashtray).

I try to do the same whenever I see flagrant leering/photoing/etc without expressed consent....but I sometimes worry that I am ruining the target's experience (I know some women who LIKE it, and actually make an effort to make it happen). I sometimes approach the woman, and (while maintaining strict eye-to-eye contact) ask if she is OK with what is happening, then confront the peep directly if she is not (which 90% of the time is the case). I don't know if it has any lasting effect, but it usually gives the woman a chance to escape or embarrasses the peep enough so they turn tail and run away.

This year, a guy showed up on friday, literally just off the bus for his first burn (dressed in street clothes no less with just a sleeping bag and boom box), and because I was nice to him, he asked me where the camps with the girls were, because he wanted to get laid. After taking a few deep breaths, I proceeded to gently lecture him for 30 minutes on what a more "burner-like" attitude was and the dangers of that type of behaviour, while helping him into a better costume. Then I sent him packing, hoping he got the point but fearing that it had been a useless effort. I later found out that several of our camps women had fled our bar because of him, and that they were (secretly) listening to my effort. They applauded my effort, and that made me feel a little better about it.

My point? Men as a whole need to "police" other men in this regard....if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate (old chemistry joke)

[Kinetic IV]

Another suggestion for next year: Attend a BED class. I did and it was a real eye opener. It's also damn empowering and it makes you want to get even more involved.

Better yet why wait until next year....learn more right now.
http://www.bureauoferoticdiscourse.org/
I can't say enough about this group and their efforts on the playa. Please give them and their website a look.

[Deb Prothero]

[quote="Kinetic IV"]Another suggestion for next year: Attend a BED class."

:idea:

Another suggestion for next year - have BM go back to nature - no cameras at all. As humans going back to nature, we could experience the event through our five senses. If you attend and experience it, you could actually survive without a camera. You don't need pictures. And just for one year maybe wouldn't that be great.

Deb

[Kinetic IV]

I like that idea as I take a camera but find it's kind of a pain to deal with out there so it usually only sees use on the road trip out and back. However even if all of the participants could be persuaded to leave the cameras at home you have the ORG's mission of promoting the event and allowing the "professional" (cough, cough) media to come in and film. If you can't control that too then what's the point? Some of the worst yahoos with cameras I've seen out there had their media mecca credential badges prominently displayed.

[scotto]

Bureau of Erotic Discourse (B.E.D.)

http://www.bureauoferoticdiscourse.org/