Flea wrote: I had this strange image ( since I have never been to BM and only told how awsome it is by a friend) that no money was used and people just gift stuff to you.. you dont have to pay but its the offerings of gifts back to those who give to you as a means of thanking them
Now I feel rejected. Why so angry?Nightterror wrote:
You want to talk about expectations - You expect something in return for your drink. I would walk away every time from an establishment such as yours. Barter is the exchange of one value for the other without the use of money. I find no value in acting like a monkey for your entertainment in exchange for shit booze. I can do that in the real world.
Because you can turn around and gift the liquor back to the participants.Dork wrote:I still fail to see how accepting $20 worth of booze to put someone at the front of the line is any better than accepting a $20 bill. It's still commerce, even though it has a slight under the table vibe to it.
Where? How do I get there?Nightterror wrote:You want to talk about expectations - You expect something in return for your drink. I would walk away every time from an establishment such as yours. Barter is the exchange of one value for the other without the use of money. I find no value in acting like a monkey for your entertainment in exchange for shit booze. I can do that in the real world.
Bingo!DallasPlaya wrote:[
One of the things I learned from working at a "bar" at b-man is that the point seems to be not "give me this and I'll give you that" but rather, "Instead of giving me money like you would in the real world, do something for us that is DIRECTLY of, by, or from you. Give us a piece of you." That is a HUGE change for most people and, I think, changes a lot of people's perceptions about how they interact with others and forces people to think about what they have to offer to the world that's CREATIVE.
Too true blue, too true!falk wrote:Don't worry, you won't be a burden, you won't be rejected, and you *will* have a good time.Flea wrote:... and I wouldnt want to burden others with my company nor do I want to spend the entire week being rejected..
Wow, apparently we've created quite a stir without knowing it.dragonfly Jafe wrote:Then don't go to Thunderdome. Or build your own dome, and let people fight in it for free.Nightterror wrote:It goes against what burningman is to me. I let people look at my art which takes months to prepare without asking for anything in exchange. I prefer to say "yes" you may or "no" you may not.
I have never heard of "paying" to fight in Thunderdome, but I have been sometimes turned away. There are times when it is closed, when they are doing private fights, women only, whatever - it is their attraction. As long as they do not violate any actual "rules" (of which there are few), they can do what they want.
Barter is a well established principal at Burningman. Bars do it all the time. Just because they charge YOU barter, and not the person next to you, doesn't mean they are singling you out - quite the opposite, they are singling the other people out for "free" admission. This is backed up by the bit about bringing a Woman along to get in free (another common tactic, as there are far more single men that want to get in). This is nothing more than an attempt to limit the number of people that want into a popular attraction...
...and static Art is different from a participatory theme camp (thanks for bringing your Art, btw). Only 2 persons can "play" in Thunderdome at once, and it takes several people to "run" thunderdome. Thousands of persons could conceivably look at a static art piece at the same time w/o issues, and no one is required to be there to hold their hands. Try running a highly popular theme camp with a particpatory element that can only handle 2 people at a time, and you might see things differently....
Remember - this is a vacation for the folks who run Thunderdome, they are doing this as a favor to you. They owe you NOTHING.
Hint: friends of the thunderdome people don't have to pay to fight...
Shhhhh!!! Don't out us!bullD wrote:he he he, keep doing what you do, they are a bunch of softies, on the inside.GuinivereElise wrote:(as a side note of minimal imortance, a group of us, including most of Happy Camp, drove up to DG, got out of the car, invaded yelling "Happay!" and proceeded to HUG THEM, KISS THEM, and BE NICE TO THEM, and then ran for our lives. I'm pretty sure we have a spot in TD next year...)
Nightterror wrote:Well Bob - I am not sure how to respond to you accusation of snarkieness of my conclusions since snarkieness is well not a real word.
I presented the facts as they happened to me. Bartering for play time led to these two underage shits stealing booze so that they could participate. Either let them in or tell them to fuck off that is my conclusion whether it be snoodiilfried or not.
The latter is certainly true. Being a high-profile theme camp on the esplanade = every yahoo & their brother, sister, or uncle-dad coming up to us with a sense of entitlement about being able to fight. Add that to the faux-violence factor & you get, frequently, the most annoying mix of variables. Since the sense of entitlement rarely comes with a gift, if it's not a pleasure for us to work with you, then we'll request something that will make it pleasurable.Bob A wrote:Maybe its semantics but how is asking demanding? You do an interactive project and someone comes up and asks to interact with it. How do the creators know you are interested if you do not ask? Now if you walk up like you own the place making an ass of yourself truly demanding, then you are an ass. The OP never wrote anything that implied they did anything more than truly ask.geekster wrote:One more thing ..
I think TD is truly a gift. If they ask you in to play, I would bet they would expect nothing in return. However if you walk up there demanding your gift, they have every right to demand theirs ... you call that barter. Whatever.
As for the barter, it seems a little harsh to me. TD should give their gift away, find simple ways to limit attendance, maybe theme days, riddles or challenges etc. If people like TD they should gift spontaneously. I did this with a few theme camps I liked. I dropped off booze to one after having had a good time, water to another that needed it.
Now maybe in TD's defense, being a very visible attraction they may attract more than their fare share of yahoos and have developed a defense mechanism. Maybe they don't get a lot of gifts so have started demanding them for better or worse.
Bob A
...DNAinVEGAS wrote:This sounds about right for how they run their camp concidering how some of their members are to other camps. I ran a large theme camp last year (Vortex casino) which stayed packed all night "with lines". No problem with the lines though.
We had a back room with the computers in it for our other attraction (The black hole) that was CLEARLY marked "DO NOT ENTER. One guy went back and I stopped him verbally. He told me to F_uck off and refused to leave. Our security ejected him. He caused a scene outside and kept yelling "You don't know who your F_cking with! I'm with Thunderdome and we're going to F_ck your camp up." and things like that.
About an hour later we lost ALL power. Checking the generators in our "private" camp area, the spark plug wires were pulled and cut, perminantly killing our entire camp for the rest of the event. When reported, Thunderdome reps denied anyone in their camp would do that. Then laughed as we walked away.
It doesn't surprise me that they would mistreat their guests also.
A man (or woman) after my own heart. :)TheJudge wrote:I just love the people who think that because they spent the money for a ticket, it gives them carte blanc to do whatever they want at any theme camp they choose.
Point of fact: There is not one single camp out there that could accomodate 30,000 people wanting to visit it. If slipping the guy at the door a few bottles of good stuff helps make the door open a little wider for ya, so be it.
Barter is against the rules, but bribing is still well and good.
And you are not going to get very far with most camps if you try to push your warm PBR at them as a bribe. For Thunderdome, I would suspect that Absynthe would get your pretty far.
Define "obvious"?Nightterror wrote:It's another thing to ask obviously underage boys to provide the artist with alcohol to participate.
..."radical self-reliance".Nightterror wrote:Define "obvious?"
I would say by the way they looked and by the way they acted, it was obvious they were just boys. And I realize it's Burningman and the artist is not responsible for every underage burner. Being a high-profile theme camp on the esplanade you must agree that you bare some responsiblity to provide a safe attraction. The same responsibility a bartender has for serving a visibly intoxicated person.
Set a time so that people have 1 minute to argue their case and the jury has 2 minutes to rule on the case.blyslv wrote:I've been thinking for a few years that a Judicial System Inc. Theme Camp would be fun. Dispute resolution right on the playa. You supply the dispute, we'll supply the kangoroo court.
But then I realize that the world would be a lot better, if everybody was just a little bit more like me.
