Do it like they do on the 'Discovery Channel'...

Share your pictures and video. Tell us about the sights, sounds, and scents, as well as the rumors and truths found at Burning Man.
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Kinetic IV
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Post by Kinetic IV » Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:15 pm

I remember standing at Greeters 2 years in a row telling people about the no video policy and all. I thought I was helping to make a difference but in hindsight it was all for nothing. The ORG is letting the images go right on out the door...ie: the fox is guarding the henhouse.

The whole thing makes me feel really weird and uncomfortable the more I think about it and the more I find out. And now I regret working the gate...essentially I was lying to people out there. Damn, sometimes ignorance is bliss.
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HughMungus
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Post by HughMungus » Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:16 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:I've attended for 4 years now. I honestly did not know that. What stayed locked in my mind is the zeal at which the ORG went after people using images without permission, ie: the London Underground Pepsi ad, the Voyeur Video situation, etc. So I thought they were tight fisted on giving out permissions on using sounds and images. Again I honestly did not know this.
I think they are pretty tight-fisted. But as long as you're not mis-representing the event, violating privacy too much (e.g., pics of naked people who don't want their naked pics in public) and, where applicable, sharing some of the money, I think they're pretty accommodating.
It's what you make it.

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Post by HughMungus » Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:20 pm

capjbadger wrote:I too don't feel this was getting ugly. A good healthy debate, eh Hugh? :)

Umm.. have you been reading my posts? I've already said that I knew about the sounds and images being used commercially by the ORG. And quite frankly, I don't feel that someone who hasn't attended has much ground to stand on.

The whole "I don't like the way things are so I'm going to take my ball and go home" is a rather poor way to act in my book. If you don;t like the way something is, act...

Hmmm... Windmills? A historical reference perhaps? I'm not familiar with the saying, or exactly what you are trying to say.
I didn't say by "the org". I said, "Are being used commercially."

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I guess we won't see you in '06 or ever again. Too bad. Honestly, the reason I'm posting about this at all is to kinda say, "You're wasting your time." I hate to see people get frustrated for no reason. I used to.
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Post by capjbadger » Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:32 pm

My dear Hugh... Now where did I say I wan't going to go? :) Like I've said many times now, I was never one to just give up and go home because I didn't like something. If everyone that cared about an event gave up, nothing would ever change.

I think we both care, just in different ways. Yes, we disagree. I don't feel that thats a bad thing. Things would be rather dull if everyone agreed, eh? ;)

I don't feel I'm wasting my time. And don't worry about me getting frustrated. I find a good debate quite enjoyable.
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Post by Discosybil » Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:46 pm

I know this thread is about the Discovery Channel and it got a little hot and heavy, but I just got home 5 minutes ago from a lecture and 1993 Burningman documentary "In Search of Ritual" by Peter Goin. (PBS by the way)

It is a video that helped me make the decision to go to BM. What I get out of it every year is to "Let things go" be a little more positive and not pick at other people. Oh my GAWD, did I really say that? But it's a little like..... being at work in here. If we complain too much, we might lose some really good people that love their job but end up BURNED OUT! They end up leaving and than it either changes for better or worse or goes out like a flame. I guess I don't want to see AG and others burn out with negativity.

220 days to go

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Post by actiongrl » Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:42 pm

burn out with negativity
Darlin', if the organizers (of anything, really, not just Burning Man) allowed negativity to stop us from doing our life's work, we'd have gone down in flames years ago.

The fact is that building BRC, as a whole, involves moving money around...and where there's money, there are deep ravines of emotion, and rightfully so. Money is what it takes to feed, clothe, house, and comfort a human life on this earth, and whenever it moves from person to person, there are raw nerves of survival that throb and ache with the personal needs of every person who is involved in the discussion. Hardly any of us feel like we "have enough" so money that moves around out of our own reach has all these emotions attached that we become frustrated when we cannot control.

So when you're in the middle of any organization that moves money around (akin to manipulating human energy, since it takes human energy to create money), you're going to inherit everyone's emotional attachment to survival (which money really represents) and you're going to come under fire if you are at the helm of guiding where any mass of money goes on behalf of your fellow man. I've seen many money debates at the regional level and the Project-wide level, and the inherent visceral emotion around even the smallest dollar is not to be faulted. We're all quite emotionally attached to what is done in the name of our community (drink!) and unless we understand why and how such doings are necessitated, we can't trust that the effort we gave away in the name of this Burning Man thing isn't being exploited for gain we find icky, and especially if we don't know or understand the intentions of the people who have found themselves at the center of the movement of the money that this thing generates.

But trust is trust, and the Burning Man Project is not just this organization that exists on paper, it's every one of us. Without your trust that these organizers are doing the right thing by everyone's need to survive and still participate in this experiment, there will be emotion. I applaud everyone who took that emotion into question and wondered what was happening when, say, something like commercial television is present in the event and money comes into play.

Our job really may be to explain a little bit better how such things relate to the bigger picture, and I hope that everyone comes to understand how in these actions we are trying to negotiate a special place wherein Burning Man comes to be understood by those who may never attend the event...the world's understanding of this part of our culture may in fact be enriched by understanding that Burning Man really is applicable to the everyday world..not merely a fringe subculture, but in fact a sincere expression of how some human beings choose to interpret their experience on this planet.

So, yeah. We don't hate the media. We embrace them as our opportunity to share something really cool and special that we've learned about life with those who may benefit from hearing about it. I am never going to apologize for that, because I think mainstream America could use a little taste of what you and I know.

We are everywhere.

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Post by Chai Guy » Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:02 am

But trust is trust, and the Burning Man Project is not just this organization that exists on paper, it's every one of us.


Amen Sister!

I really appreciate AG taking the time to hear us out and to respond to our questions.

Discourse can be an amazing tool for learning and growth. Now let's hold hands and sing kumbaya!

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Post by robotland » Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:06 am

Kinetic IV wrote:Sheesh, this is getting ugly and in hindsight I wish I'd kept my mouth shut. Too late for that, I'm looking forward to the show, we'll see if they do it right or mangle it. And who knows they may put together something spectacular that many of us want to show others who don't understand that event in the desert that we love so much.
Just saw a commercial for it. Might not be so bad. "Guy goes around meeting people and learning to do stuff while also learning about the history and traditions of the locals" format, not unlike "Stranded with Cash Peters" but with somewhat more flowery rhetoric.

I think we'll survive.
Howdy From Kalamazoo

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ravenluv
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tell it!

Post by ravenluv » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:16 am

actiongrl wrote:
burn out with negativity
Our job really may be to explain a little bit better how such things relate to the bigger picture, and I hope that everyone comes to understand how in these actions we are trying to negotiate a special place wherein Burning Man comes to be understood by those who may never attend the event...the world's understanding of this part of our culture may in fact be enriched by understanding that Burning Man really is applicable to the everyday world..not merely a fringe subculture, but in fact a sincere expression of how some human beings choose to interpret their experience on this planet.

So, yeah. We don't hate the media. We embrace them as our opportunity to share something really cool and special that we've learned about life with those who may benefit from hearing about it. I am never going to apologize for that, because I think mainstream America could use a little taste of what you and I know.

yeah....that's what i was tryin' to say, but she does it so much better.

everything AG said makes perfect sense to me. reading her responses continues to feed my belief that these people can be trusted. the fact she's responding at all is awesome enough. it's icing on the cake that she does such a good job of conveying a vision that i find both sensible and inspiring.

having said that, i cannot help but point out the obvious: they've tried something different and we don't know exactly how it will play out. all we can do is asks ourselves: what outcome do I want to see?

consider this: what if the program conveys something important about this event and in some way HELPS it? wouldn't that call into doubt the absolute wisdom of sticking hard and fast to certain interpretations of certain principles? yet, any other outcome will be a real letdown and possibly a drain on the event. all principles aside, that's not what i wish to see. and i suspect that none of us on this thread do.

the waiting is the hardest part.


Absolute and Relative : The Shift

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Lassen Forge
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Post by Lassen Forge » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:48 am

waited to absorb it al before I put my tuppence in the middle of it... >giggles<

The major problem for a lot of people when it comes to an event is they find themselves shifting from Participant to Entitlement. I've seen it a lot with other things (Renfaire, for example), and I see it here as well.

After being a part of it, and having a taste of working "on the inside", people commonly forget that the event, whether it be Renfaire or Burning Man or Strawberry or HFMF or whatever is actually the property, not of the ticket holders, but the people who own the event. In this case, it's not the people who bought the tickets, nor is it the volunteers - it's the people who put the money up and who actually OWN the thing.

SO... the owners decide to do some publicity. Cool. They can do that - it's THEIR show. Not mine, not anyone elses. The rules change? They decide to do something different? Yeah - They paid for the privilege.

If you were one of the llp's partners, you'd have the right to say "we're gonna do this or that". Why? Because (a) you paid for that privilege, and (b) it's your ass on the line. You who buy a ticket, do your art, whatever... Cool - you contribute to the gig. You may even volunteer - Which is cool. Diffeent level of participation. Still, it DOESN'T mean you own the gig, you're just a part of.

It's like saying because you bought a Toyota, or work on their assembly line, you have a right to run the company. Or because they hired you to be a spokesman for a company you can espouse YOUR views over that of the company's. Wrong.

IF you don't like what the llc's doing, or the direction of the event, you have a HUGE choice - you can choose NOT to participate. It is reallyTHAT f***ing simple.

Being in the position of AG orLH or CJ or whoever is NOT the same as being in the position of you or me or anyone else, no matter how desperately you wish it were. YOU (and me) are PARTICIPANTS in the event, they are the OWNERS of it. Not being elitist, just brutally honest. Look at it this way - they earn the right to make decisions. They pay for it with the risk. When people die out there or whatever, who gets sued? Not me. Not you.

Yeah, honestly, I wouldn't mind being on a board of something like BRC llc, because I live for the risk, I live for challenges, and (like most people here) I can see the vision of it. Serious. Done it on other projects and it's FUN. Grey hair and all! BUT... there are no openings for a co-owner at present, so I will be content playing my part - and that is as a participant, a volunteer, and someone who does this as a recreation and not as a vocation.

Oh - about the whole "my art as my own" thing? I know that people are gonna take pix of my art, take pix and video of me. Part of it. IF I was paranoid about that I wouldn't do my art there, knowing people are gonna see it, image it, take it home, and show it off.

Finally - when I start to think that Something I paticipate in is something I own, I start to realize it's time to RUN away from it for a while. Did it with Ren, and god forbid, if it ever happens here I will run from this too. Because life is way too short to stress on something you have no control over.

Done 4 now...
bb

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Discosybil
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Post by Discosybil » Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:51 pm

Amen!

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Chai Guy
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Post by Chai Guy » Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:27 pm

"Burning Man, Love it or Leave it!"

Kinetic IV
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Post by Kinetic IV » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:06 pm

Chai Guy wrote:"Burning Man, Love it or Leave it!"
Just because you love something or someone is no sign you have to accept every aspect of it / them. Now if this was unconditional love that's different. But that doesn't apply here.
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Chai Guy
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Post by Chai Guy » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:07 pm

Yeah, that was kinda my point, I was being ironic.

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the fire elf
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...

Post by the fire elf » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:18 pm

Kinetic IV wrote: But that doesn't apply here.
does now
instantiate vacuous truth

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HughMungus
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Post by HughMungus » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:28 pm

Chai Guy wrote:"Burning Man, Love it or Leave it!"
Make your suggestions, hope that they're heard, and leave it at that. That's really all you can do.
It's what you make it.

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Lassen Forge
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Post by Lassen Forge » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:45 pm

How about taking it for what it is, and if you're not happy with it, don't freaking go?

Too hard? Then start your own event.

I'm sorry, but this customer telling the event how the event has to be is... bullshit. You won't hear the honchos at BRC llc saying that, but honestly, that's the way reality is.

I expect mondo flame for this stand, but tell me if I'm wrong. And if I am, PLEASE start a business, put your life savings into it, hire me, and I'll tell you what you have to change it to to make me happy.

Bottom line - if BRC makes you THAT f***ing pissed off, then... DON'T GO.

Jeeeezzzzz.....

bb

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Post by Kinetic IV » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:54 pm

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:How about taking it for what it is, and if you're not happy with it, don't freaking go?

Too hard? Then start your own event.

bb
Did that last year as a matter of fact, Southern Missouri, outside venue, not tied to BM but yet with some elements of it incorporated in.

You can plan any event you want, do anything you want and invite the world in. But if they don't like your product, if you don't listen to the most basic feedback of what your attendees are telling you...well you don't have an event next year because nobody wants to come back. Or the crowd decreases so much that you can't afford to run it, essentially the same thing.

Edit: As for not going...it's better to try and change it somehow before giving up on it.
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Post by Chai Guy » Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:24 pm

Yeah, Like I said Sue "Love it or Leave it" hahahaaa!

I see, we're expected to volunteer to run security, take tickets, sell ice, sell coffee, create art, build "interactive" theme camps, and even clean up the office, but we can piss off if we think we can tell the org how to run things.

nice.

Oh well, I guess I'm just an uppity burner!

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Post by webdaemon » Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:36 pm

i would greatly appreciate it if some one were to download this episode and send it to me or send me info on how i can get a copy form you... i would greatly appreciate it.


my email is [email protected]

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Post by Ugly Dougly » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:03 am

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:How about taking it for what it is, and if you're not happy with it, don't freaking go?
Community? What?

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Post by Cabanasprings » Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:25 pm

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:How about taking it for what it is, and if you're not happy with it, don't freaking go?

Too hard? Then start your own event.

I'm sorry, but this customer telling the event how the event has to be is... bullshit. You won't hear the honchos at BRC llc saying that, but honestly, that's the way reality is.

I expect mondo flame for this stand, but tell me if I'm wrong. And if I am, PLEASE start a business, put your life savings into it, hire me, and I'll tell you what you have to change it to to make me happy.

Bottom line - if BRC makes you THAT f***ing pissed off, then... DON'T GO.

Jeeeezzzzz.....

bb
I per******* h**e to ag**e with ev*****in* you ***t sa**!!!!!!!

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Bob
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Post by Bob » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:00 am

So is a one-off commercial documentary worse than a persistent commercial website?

Are you suppressing art or creating art by protesting against other people's art?
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

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the fire elf
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Post by the fire elf » Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:55 pm

Bob wrote:Are you...?
)creating(

(worse)
instantiate vacuous truth

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Post by Bob A » Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:06 pm

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:SO... the owners decide to do some publicity. Cool. They can do that - it's THEIR show. Not mine, not anyone elses. The rules change? They decide to do something different?
Sorry I'm joining in on the end of this. But I'm confused and have a question. Everybody talks about this show and talks about this situation as if it is something new, as the person above says, "They decide to do something different?" But it’s not. I know a lot of people have not read the web site fully but I did, pretty much the whole thing, before I went the first time. With the exception of straight main line news, the org always has reserved the right to get money from documentaries or any other commercial video use. Usually in the form of if the person makes money in the future on this, they get part of that. And sometimes there are flat fees like with discovery. I've seen many other burning man shows on regular TV, and I'm sure the project has gotten money from all those showings or got a flat fee up front. I own 1/2 a dozen burning man movies and books, and I'm sure the project got some money for those too, heck I bought some from their web store.

So my questions are, what makes this one so different? Is it that people were unaware of this policy and now that they know they are pissed. That's not the projects fault, people could have looked into this in the past, and could have jointed the media team or spent years talking to people and slowly molding the policies, so this could have been avoided.

Is it that this show is perceived to be so much more public and will make so much more money? Well that’s not fair either, how much money is too much money? They are applying the same policy they apply to the guy that makes a documentary and sells 10 copies. Why should discovery’s be evil just because it is bigger? If the other contract rules are enforced, regarding truth, not filming naked people without permission, etc, both projects should be safe.

The show is on tonight, lets watch it, by the way all this talk has pretty much guaranteed every burner will be watching, (there is no such thing as bad press applies here, we’ve helped bump discovery’s ratings a few points with all this talk.) After the show has aired if you’re not happy with what they did or "got away with" get involved. Send constructive ideas to the media team, or volunteer to help them. But keep your ideas productive, media always has been and always will be part of burning man, so you are not going to stop it, but you might help mold it for the future.


Bob A

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the fire elf
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...

Post by the fire elf » Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:28 pm

you are not going to stop it, but you might help mold it for the future.

i would like to help mold it...

but i'm waiting to be discovered...
instantiate vacuous truth

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Post by psilence » Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:17 pm

Just as an aside, discovery times channel is not in any way shape or form The Learning Channel as someone else said.

I waited all day too :P

-Joe

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Post by psilence » Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:20 pm

EDIT:

Guess it does air on TLC tommorow,

http://tlc.discovery.com/tvlistings/epi ... hannel=DTC

-Joe

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Post by capjbadger » Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:28 pm

I'd check the weekly listings. I'm not seeing it on any channel other than Discovery Times...
Arrrggg!! Avast ye fucking fluffy bunny shirtcockers! Haul your drunken hairy fat ass out of our sight or prepare to receive a hot buttered hedgehog fired up your aft quarters!

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Post by Discosybil » Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:01 pm

The Learning Channel was purchased by Discovery Channel 1991

Looking forward to the show!!

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