negative forums and the experience itself

Share your pictures and video. Tell us about the sights, sounds, and scents, as well as the rumors and truths found at Burning Man.
dj_john69
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Post by dj_john69 » Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:49 pm

What ever happened to the good ole days where if some random guy grabbed some random chick...he gets his fucking teeth kicked in ?? Okay, maybe not that harsh.

Why dont people use fucking COMMON SENSE @ BM ?? Here's a few ideas to make and keep you safer:

1). LADIES...do NOT go out by yourself at night. NOT even to the nasty Sani-huts !! Grab your friend and make it a safe lil field trip.

2). DO NOT drink anyones drink but your own unless it's from a medic or other medical personal. Carry your own alcohol and water if you go out !! Duh.

3). Ladies...if a guy grabs your ass...kick him in his fucking nuts !! Thats all you need to do.

4). If you plan on getting wasted on alcohol or drugs during the night...make sure your not alone !! Bring your friends and make it a safe party night and not on your regret !! If your too fucking high to realize that some asshole is trying to take you back to his tent, your friends can make sure your okay.

5). If you do have to go out at night by yourself ladies...carry pepper spray !! Its not illegal and its very useful. Especially if you use the EXTRA STRONG ones like the police use.

6). If you go somewhere...make sure someone from your camp knows where you are heading.

I personally thought that this was ALL considered common sense but i guess not. Burning Man is NOT a perfect World but you can make it safe for you and your friends.

~John

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Post by StevenGoodman » Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:27 am

[quote="transgirl"]Locking up the entrance after Thursday is a great idea.[/quote]

Actually, based on what was posted in one of the other topics (by someone involved in Gate) most people have entered by mid-week. There are few entries on Friday.

I know of one camp that had "yahoo" problems, well before Friday and Saturday.

Lock the gate at 12:01 Monday...
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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:55 am

Trying to get that whistle in your mouth is wasted seconds. The human is pron to scream in times of danger.

If "you" get into trouble at BM. I want you to scream so loud that I can hear you from any where in the city. I will always have enough pent up anger to just kick the shit out of some one.

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Post by Kinetic IV » Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:08 am

unjonharley wrote:Trying to get that whistle in your mouth is wasted seconds. The human is pron to scream in times of danger.

If "you" get into trouble at BM. I want you to scream so loud that I can hear you from any where in the city. I will always have enough pent up anger to just kick the shit out of some one.
Agreed. You don't need to be fumbling for gadgets and in the din of background noise at BRC a whistle is just more noise that gets tuned out. A scream is primal, the human brain is wired to respond to it and it cuts through the din to get the maximum amount of attention in the quickest amount of time. Forget the whistle. Just scream as loud as you can.

This also goes hand in hand with what the BED team reinforced during their training sessions on playa this year.
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Ron
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Post by Ron » Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:30 pm

Generally speaking the pros will teach women to scream, "Fire! Help! Rape! Help!" specifically. Form the words because their meaning is important and random screams may get lost in the background. But no matter how strong one's lungs are, they can get much more volume out of a whistle than one's vocal cords. The time to prepare any given implement should be taken up *before* an encounter, not during. That's why women's self defense instructors teach women to have their keys in their hands and ready to use, before they head out to their car. By way of one example. So in this case a whistle is a great thing, just keep it handy so it can be used in the time it takes you to draw breath, rather than fumbling around in a bag for it.

But, honestly, prevention of sexual assault is a topic far too large for any pat answers. Even those who teach self defense and rape prevention/response will differ on such questions as the value of weapons, how much, and how strongly, to fight back, and so on. Even that seemingly obvious bit of advise, 'never travel alone,' can be argued about by the experts because the vast majority of sexual assaults happen on dates and in the home. It's a complicated topic.

So if a whistle makes you feel better, get one. Keep it handy, practice getting it to your mouth, keeping it in your hand, and blowing the shit out of it. Have a friend wrestle you for it and consider how it could be used on the soft bits of someone's body as well as for a whistle. Learn what parts have to be open for it to work, and so on. Don't think your whistle is an insurance policy, it's an emergency trick that may or may not work. And so on.

But mostly remember that you are worth protecting, that you deserve polite and humane treatment, that you are capable of identifying and avoiding most bad situations and of responding to any that happen anyway.

Ron

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Post by Ugly Dougly » Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:38 am

Pretend you're out in the middle of the desert with about 40,000 drunken strangers, with no one to protect you.

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Post by skygod » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:32 am

Two sounds will always make me run towards it:
1-A frightened scream
2-The sound of a car wreck
Umm, three sounds
3-also the ice cream truck jingle.
I've learned to avoid the sound -- screams of passion, it's dicey
"It will seem difficult in the beginning. But everything seems difficult in the beginning."- Musashi

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:51 pm

The rape whistle has been trouted for a lot of years..Still they are not carried by any measurable amount..My post was in hopes of reaching the rank and file folks that go to burning man..They are out there to have fun. Danger only crosses there mind when it's on top of them. They are not out there looking for some one to do chow-suey combat with. At most a little self defence training can get a person badly hurt.


/
People are animals. When they first walked the earth they were on the food change.. They learned to react to danger.. This same reaction is born into the modern man today. A smaller animal when in the jaws of danger will scream and struggle. Some times the struggle will gain then the micro second to escape.

I suggest a person do what they would do in danger..My suggest was only the first act..If I go into combat, I go for extrem pain.. But I have had a few years to practise. .

I fight with every thing I have. That would include screaming in my in the ears of my agresser.. Biting anything that came near my mouth.. Banging my head into the others head and face.. All the time keeping my legs pumping and trying to make contact with a kick or stomp. And grabing diging and hitting any thing that comes near my hands and elbows. In other words, Go nuts all over the agresser.

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AntiM
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Post by AntiM » Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:42 am

My whistle is on my keyring, an Acme Thunderer gym whistle. Stops 47 teenagers dead in their tracks.

And I bite.

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Post by Mozy bonz » Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:52 pm

...

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Lassen Forge
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Post by Lassen Forge » Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:32 pm

Rape whistles don't stop rapists. If you can even get it to your mouth, what if no one is there to hear? And who will pay attention to it, anyway? Wanna hear a bad guy laugh? Blow that whistle. It's like negotiating with a rapist - the only thing they are worried about is overpowering you, terrorizing you, and... well... you know.

Think Seriously, now. You're driving home at night, downtown in some city. If you heard a whistle in the distance, what would you do? Would you start toward it, or ignore it? Be honest. Wouldn't even call the cops, I bet. Why? Because a whistle is NOTHING. A kid playing with his dad's sonic blaster. A traffic cop signaling a car to stop.

Sorry, but that, my dears, is reality. Maybe a boat horn would shock the perp.. AND a stream of pepper spray. Which should almost delay the bad guy just enough to either (a) run the f*** away, or (b) pull the .357 from your purse and blast them into the hereafter. Or both.

You need a mental mind set - kind of like a martial arts thing - that you WILL incapicitate the bad guy and run, and will maim or kill anything that trys to f*** with you, and know deep down that you would. IF you are in that space, you will radiate that confidence and bad people will tend to stay away.

Now, I know it doesn't sound nice, nor is it all touchy feely, nor is it feeding the (usually peer-group or male enforced) norms that women must NEVER stand up for themselves... but speaking from personal experience, what it has done is made it possible to walk out of situations where I wouldn't have had I had the "proper, demure, whipped puppy" mental attitude...

The only downside is people say I can seem a little butch, and at times abrasive, however... at least I was alive to have people think that of me. 8) It doesn't mean being a bitch or an asshole, but bad people can sense from your mental outlook when f***ing with you would be a good chance to practice terror and rape techniques, or would really fuck up their day. And no, you don't have to be 5'11 to pull it off. It works just as well at 5'6. I know this first hand.

Wanna hear controversial? I have been an advocate for decades on a woman's right to carry a concealed firearm. Why? Because a bad guy would think twice about mugging you if he didn't know if you would be an easy target... or the last thing he'd se in this lifetime.

Now... since I brought it up... let me ask the loaded, better not ask, question, and then I'll shut up... And it's to the ladies. (Tho I guarantee guys will answer this, too...)

If you were carrying concealed (illegally) at BRC, and someone attempted to do violence to you (remember, this is BRC), would you let them (a) violate and possibly kill you, or (b) blow them away, knowing you'd be arrested and permanently ejected?

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Post by AntiM » Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:53 pm

Actually my whistle is a gym whistle, the coach gave it to me for when I subbed in PE. It just has never come off the keyring. More useful for hiking in case you get lost. I have pepper spray, but it is so old I'm not sure if it still works and I don't want to experiment with it.

Handguns and I don't mix well, I don't have good enough grip strength to hold one steady. I likely wouldn't shoot anyone, but I well might stick a knife into soft sleshy bits if given the chance. I do carry pointy objects frequently, although not so much at Bman where larry and I are together nearly constantly. Now shotguns, I have a big-ass 12 guage, loaded, to hand in my house. And a dagger in a sheath hanging from the bedpost. Lots of home invasion rapes in Utah, I don't plan on participating.

Hey, I'm 5'4 (at best) and I've stood up to guys in some fairly creeepy isolated dark places. Thus far, they backed right the fuck off. I had a guy approach me in a park near a military base I was shortcutting through. He asked me if being out by myself so late and so alone was scary, and what would I do if I were attacked? All this while he's edging closer and trying to get in front of me. My reply: "I'd fucking kill him with my bare hands." He looked at me funny said, Uh well, be careful and practically ran away.

And when I was 18, in SF (1975), I was grabbed and pulled toward an alley, I never really saw the guy but I bit him, he let go and I ran. I don't know what I got ahold of, but whatever it was, it filled my mouth with blood. Yech.

So yeah, while me shooting someone at the event is unlikely, I think I'd go down fighting even if it meant I might not be able to go again.

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Bob
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Post by Bob » Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:08 pm

The OP glosses upon assault, sexual or otherwise, but also people harassing people on bikes, people boobytrapping people using bikes, people leaving their bikes out to get stolen, bad photography, etc., with the assumption that Things Have Gotten Worse in the last ten-odd years, and blaming it all on who-knows-what.

I'd agree there are more campers than ten years ago. More camps. More bikes. More consumer goods. More expensive art. More cops, and certainly way, way, more org staff wandering around.

More thieves? More fighting fighters? More potential sex offenders? More bike abusers? Worse photography? In my experience there was plenty of bad photography, bad biking, bad camping, bad art vandalism, bad bruising, etc. ten years ago, though I wouldn't have stats to support it. And I'm not aware of the org keeping any meaningful stats outside of the ticket mailing list, and any law enforcement stats would be subject to a number of variables wrt to their own staffing & priorities, reporting by victims, etc.

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Post by joel the ornery » Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:28 pm



sorry, wrong board.

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Evolution

Post by Taz » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:06 pm

Well sarcastica, what I think you are seeing is the evolution of an idealistic society. It's like when they first intoduce a bill into congress. It starts out so ideal and revolutionary and everyone is so optomistical about it. Then it passes down through the ranks, gets altered, watered down, fragmented by so many special interest groups that by the time it goes foe the vote, it hardly resembles the original.
Now you take a group of 4,000 that expands tenfold to 40,000 and you've got to expect your ideologies to diversify. The more of the outsiders you bring in , the more you adulterate the original concept.
If you want to hold onto your concepts , then you are going to have to remain small. The original burners race motored vehicles all over the playa. Now that their are children around that's no longer possible. They've moved on to another location where they could preserve their identity. Now you take a small group and try to induce changes to their lifestyle tenfold, that is quite a major undertaking.

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Post by skygod » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:23 pm

Bay Bridge Sue wrote: would you let them (a) violate and possibly kill you, or (b) blow them away, knowing you'd be arrested and permanently ejected?[/color]
That's a great question and it deserves an answer.
If i was sober, I would blow them away to preserve my own life, as a last resort.
But if I am fucked up I feel I have given up that right, and must travel like a leaf in the wind, totally vulnerable, and irresponsible.
"It will seem difficult in the beginning. But everything seems difficult in the beginning."- Musashi

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Problems at the Burn.

Post by Rev.T » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:01 am

Greetings.
These types of problems are not happening only at the Burn. As a long time Oregon Country Fair person (15 years) we had rapes and assaults there as well. There are no real cops on site. Fair security does a great job and the family tries to look out for each other. Even so, bad things happen. It appears to be the nature of us humans.
At the Fair, if you yell, help will come. At the Burn, the area is so much bigger and there is so much going on you may not be heard. I like the idea of camps posted as safe zones.
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Post by mdmf007 » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:47 am

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:
If you were carrying concealed (illegally) at BRC, and someone attempted to do violence to you (remember, this is BRC), would you let them (a) violate and possibly kill you, or (b) blow them away, knowing you'd be arrested and permanently ejected?
Are you sure its illegal to have a weaon on BLM land? As far as the BMORG goes its their event they can kick you out / ban you for drinking tang if they want.

There are plenty of precedents of even felons carrying and shooting a person. If it was a justified self defense you are far less likely to have other charges thrown on top.

If you arrored, you will get charged with everything under the sun.

later all.
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Post by Dr. Pyro » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:44 pm

As it says in the handouts, guns are no longer allowed in BRC.

But, as one who knows, BBSue doesn't need a gun; she could whip the living shit out of almost anyone of us, and that certainly includes me. Which is why I try to stay on her good side, isn't that right Sue?

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Post by The CO » Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:09 pm

I would call on the responsable male denizens of Black Rock to do the right thing; If you see a woman who looks like she is in trouble, uncomfortable, etc. ask directly: Are you all right? Do you need help? Should I get a ranger? Point the assholes out to the people from the camp/bar/club you are in. Make everyone around aware, loudly, of their behaviour. Public scolding and identification can make it very hard for these douchebags to get away with anything.

And, a good swift kick in the meat & 2 veg is always a good wake up for them, regardless of the gender of the one doing the kicking.
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Post by Taz » Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:03 pm

The CO wrote:I would call on the responsable male denizens of Black Rock to do the right thing; If you see a woman who looks like she is in trouble, uncomfortable, etc. ask directly: Are you all right? Do you need help? Should I get a ranger? Point the assholes out to the people from the camp/bar/club you are in. Make everyone around aware, loudly, of their behaviour. Public scolding and identification can make it very hard for these douchebags to get away with anything.

And, a good swift kick in the meat & 2 veg is always a good wake up for them, regardless of the gender of the one doing the kicking.
That would seem ideal but in this world where permissions are increasingly lacking it could very well become impractical. First of all, what gives you the right to intervene in the first place? If I'm in an arguement with an associate I certainly would not want an uninvolved third party onlooker intervening in my affairs with that individual. Would you? How do you know this third person is not simply playing charlatan to win the womans favor even if he lacks the understanding of the conflict in the first place? I surely would resent it and rightly so. That is not saying I would not intervene in an incident of physical violence. I'd probably call the rangers then. Physical violence can never fostered.
What I think is that women have to take more responsibility for reporting and repelling these offenders. They have to be assertive and not compliant by vocalization, fleeing, asking assistance from others. ANYTHING other than that simply reinforces the aberrant behavior.
It's really up to them. They have to step forward first.

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Post by CapSmashy » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:28 pm

Its not too hard to tell if the woman involved in a "tense" looking situation wants to be "rescued, for lack of a better term, based on body language and tone of voice.

A couple having an argumentative spat because its been oppressively hot all day and one of them is hung over is going to sound a lot different than a woman telling some creepoid that she wants nothing to do with him.

As for a situation escalating to physical violence, especially right in front of me, well, I'm gonna have a real hard time not intervening.
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Post by Archantael » Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:23 am

Even for a simple slap or punch I'd stay out of it. But...if it turns into an all out brawl....I still don't think I'd intervene by myself. I'd go collect others, see if there are Rangers close by to get involved, and then go back in from a position of strength. With my luck if I went in alone my effort to save the day would see me end up in the medical tent. It wouldn't be the first time a "good samaritan" got his butt kicked for trying to step in, and domestic violence can be some of the nastiest fights to handle.

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Post by diane o'thirst » Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:40 am

I saw something like that here in Eugene. There were about thirty people involved, one guy was getting dogpiled by six guys and blood flying everywhere. My friend and several other witnesses got on their cellphones and mass-dialed 9-1-1. We think it was either a gang initiation or one of our infamous "young white male beating a homeless person to death" incidents.

The incredible thing was, the fight was going on next to a car with a woman and her kid in it. She couldn't have been more than 5'2" but she got out, right-hooked one of the punks and screamed at him to get away from her car. Then they saw us calling the cops, heard the sirens and scattered like pigeons.
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Post by mojo » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:38 pm

I believe staunchly in pacifism - and because of that belief, I became involved in martial arts and earned a black belt. I know now that when I am presented with a situation where someone means to harm me, if I choose to remain pacifistic it is really by choice and not because I can't defend myself.

I encourage anyone who worries about being physically attacked to mentally prepare themselves for the unexpected. Having an empowered mindset is crucial. Take some lessons in self defense from someone who will also teach you the psychology of staying safe. It's not really all about avoiding dangerous situations, but rather about self awareness and using your environment to your advantage.

I strongly advise against having a handgun. If you pull one out, you must be prepared and ready to use it or become a victim of your own gun.

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Post by diane o'thirst » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:47 pm

The Ghurka had a tradition surrounding their kukris. If you unsheathed it, you could not put it back in its sheath without giving it a drink first — meaning draw blood, and kukris are an I'm-not-fuckin'-kidding knife: it wouldn't be a cutely-tough little battle-scar slash across the chest, it'd be jugular severed, arm off, etc.

Don't draw a weapon unless you're ready to kill or die.
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Post by mojo » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:52 pm

In most circumstances where there are any people anywhere nearby, your very best deterrent is a camera - when you first start feeling threatened, make a point of taking a photo of the asshole. I was once able to discourage a guy that was chasing me in my car by stopping at an intersection with him behind me, getting out of my car, knocking on his window and taking his picture.

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Post by Taz » Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:23 pm

Archantael wrote:Even for a simple slap or punch I'd stay out of it. But...if it turns into an all out brawl....I still don't think I'd intervene by myself. I'd go collect others, see if there are Rangers close by to get involved, and then go back in from a position of strength. With my luck if I went in alone my effort to save the day would see me end up in the medical tent. It wouldn't be the first time a "good samaritan" got his butt kicked for trying to step in, and domestic violence can be some of the nastiest fights to handle.
THat's really the best advice. Don't get involved unless you believe someone's life is seriously endangered.
What's the difference between self defense against an assualt and a brawl over a difference of an opinion? Well let's see. If the two involved parties are engaged in a physical exchange attempting to HOLD their ground in a WIDE OPEN PLAYA, then that's a physical attempt to resolve a conflict or commonly known as a street fight.
On the other hand, if one of the contestants is moving in any escape route attempting to avoid getting cornered and the other contestant continues to close the grounds between them and the one being pursued is NOT displaying an expression of joy but rather screaming ,pushing ,or other method of repelling the pursuer THEN that is distinctly a case of self defense and warrants all and any assistance.

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Post by mojo » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:34 pm

I guess I am a little more of a rabid pacifist than I thought. If I see a slap or a punch, I most certainly will make my presence known - at very least by making myself an obvious witness. Even fisticuffs between consenting adults can escalate out of control wherein my services may be more along the lines of referee.

I accept the tags of nosy, buttinski, etc where it relates to violece - I just believe that peace cannot flourish if violence is not confronted.

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Post by stabrippystabstab » Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:30 am

I've been to burning man every year since 95, and I have only had one or two encounters, and they werent all that bad, they were just pusy men wanting to kiss. Now I am very young, and I cannot scream very loud at all. i am a "lowtalker" i guess you'd say. I think if they gave out pink whistles that all made a distinctive sound, it would work wonders. Ive been in a situation outside of burning man where ive had to scream for help, and everyone ignored me.

About closing the gate: there are thousands of people that dont arrive untill the weekend, some of which couldnt find tickets, being sold out of most places, and wanted to buy them at the gate. what would they do?

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