Some Theme Camps unaproachable

twyla · Post by **twyla** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 3:20 pm

This was my first burn, but I was with some veteran burners who felt the same way. A few of very elaborate theme camps seemed to have their own party going on and weren't very friendly when we approached to share our spirit and friendship! It seems to us that some of the folks didn't get the true spirit and meaning of Burning Man. But other than a few negs, we had a wonderful time and experience. I just hope it doesn't get too big and people lose the true spirit of Burning Man. My veteran burners I was with, seemed to think this might be the case. I HOPE NOT!

III · Post by **III** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 3:24 pm

>some of the folks didn't get the true spirit and meaning of Burning Man.

which is what, again, exactly?

my theme camp (the one i would have camped with) can be exclusionary. not everyone is made to feel welcome there. it might have been the barbed wire.

but if you don't like it, you're more than free to set up yourown perfectly amazing theme camp and invite everyone in. i'm sure everyone will appreciate it.

Gothalot · Post by **Gothalot** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 4:15 pm

Yes, I'd have to agree. Even as one of the BRG reporters I found most camps rather inaccesable. A particular camp in Gigsville when approached to do an interview for the Gazette later on in the day said come back after 8pm, "we are having a party for the camp at 6pm". Basicly she was saying that only the camp was allowed access. She then said "ooh come at 6pm that's okay". I felt mildly special at the invatation to an elite party however later I decided NOT to go, feeling that it was not in the spirit of Burning Man to lock anyone out of a camp for a so called special party at ANY time. I declined to return to Gigsville or any other camp like it. My faveorite place ended up being a quiet place called The Seven Sins where they were always inviting and happy to see me and anyone else that happened to come along. Truely they were into the spirt of Burning Man.

Gothalot · Post by **Gothalot** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 4:28 pm

Yes, I'd have to agree. Even as one of the BRG reporters I found most camps rather inaccesable. A particular camp in Gigsville when approached to do an interview for the Gazette later on in the day said come back after 8pm, "we are having a party for the camp at 6pm". Basicly she was saying that only the camp was allowed access. She then said "ooh come at 6pm that's okay". I felt mildly special at the invatation to an elite party however later I decided NOT to go, feeling that it was not in the spirit of Burning Man to lock anyone out of a camp for a so called special party at ANY time. I declined to return to Gigsville or any other camp like it. My faveorite place ended up being a quiet place called The Seven Sins where they were always inviting and happy to see me and anyone else that happened to come along. Truely they were into the spirt of Burning Man.

III · Post by **III** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 4:31 pm

>Even as one of the BRG reporters

is that supposed to make you more special than anyone else?

Lydia Love · Post by **Lydia Love** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 4:36 pm

feeling that it was not in the spirit of Burning Man to lock anyone out of a camp for a so called special party at ANY time

So... if you create a theme camp you have to be spread-eagle open to the public every freaking moment so no-one is *ever* dissapointed?

If I created a theme camp I wouldn't want to have to entertain every freaking person who dropped by every hour of the day. Everyone deserves some time to do whatever the hell they want to and just because it's a "gift economy" doesn't mean you have to give everything to everybody everytime.

"Not in the spirit of burning man" is starting to sound like "where's my fucking gift" to me.

Gothalot · Post by **Gothalot** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 4:59 pm

"is that supposed to make you more special than anyone else?"

More special? No not really, it wasn't the point I was making. Re-reading my post may help you understand.[/b][/quote]

Gothalot · Post by **Gothalot** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:09 pm

I dont think anyone expects instant access to anyone elses camp. That would be asking too much even in the so called "Spirit of Burning Man". I think what the original poster of this thread is implying is that he was not made intirely welcome and he was disappointed. Even I noticed that many camps were designed in such a way that did not invite but more or less discouraged attendence. I live with an urban planner who confirmed this and pointed it out to me while on a walk through the various streets on the Playa.

And III, relax, just because I said I was a Gazette reporter does not imply that I thought I was special, tho I am. Gazette laminates and good swag will get you a coffee tho. Come to think of it good shwag will get you coffee anyway huh.

Lydia, were you spread eagling at your camp?! Damn I knew I missed good things but Damn!

gladeye · Post by **gladeye** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:10 pm

A theme camp is also a home for the people working it, and like any home, there are times when the family inside would like some space and privacy. There is nothing rude about having a private party. It's all about how you respond to the people you turn away. It's not that hard to tell someone POLITELY that your camp is doing something special, personal, and private at the moment, but will be happy to entertain visitors at such and such a time. I find it hard to believe that any theme camps were that private and sequestered the entire week, but it's not unnatural to want some time to yourselves.

Gothalot · Post by **Gothalot** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:14 pm

Gladeye,

Did you see the size of Gigsville!? Holy crap it was huge, closing that big of a section down was bloody greedy in my oppinion. I agree with you about having your own camp party but I think there is a limit on square footage out there.

III · Post by **III** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:15 pm

>many camps were designed in such a way that did not invite but more or less discouraged attendence.

many camps prefer to develop deeper, more extended relationships with a smaller volume of people. one way to do this is to make them unappealing except to the sorts of people you'd like to interact with.

trying to be accommodating to 30,000 people at the same time is a sure way to drive yourself mad.

and in black rock, i get good coffee without a laminate *or* schwag.

Gothalot · Post by **Gothalot** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:19 pm

"many camps prefer to develop deeper, more extended relationships with a smaller volume of people. one way to do this is to make them unappealing except to the sorts of people you'd like to interact with."

Well III , then I suggest they start their own burning man and get clicky in a place that is closer to where they live. It certainly would be easier for them.

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:21 pm

I think you're confused about Gigsville.

Gigsville was a village consisting of thirtysomething theme camps, plus the personal living spaces of the people participating in the theme camps. Are you saying that you visited every one and found them all hostile or exclusionary? I doubt it.

I think it's perfectly permissible to have private parties. I also think it's perfectly permissible *not* to like every freaking person you meet at Burning Man, but there seem to be some that disagree with me on that.

And I'll repeat trey's question from an earlier thread: please define for me this spirit of Burning Man of which you speak.

dirtytuba · Post by **dirtytuba** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:23 pm

This year seemed much different. There were a lot of belligerent drunks, angry "gift economy=this is mine" arsholes, viscous vandals and plain thieves out there. I don't blame any other theme camp for closing their doors some of the time. I personally witnessed destruction of art installations, and vindictive vandalization of art cars.

no wonder the quality of art has diminished....
artist and artist groups work long and hard on projects for burning man. And in the past they came to find an appreciation for their work and respect for their idea. this year they came to burning man only to find rudeness and contempt from both burning man participants AND burning man rangers. I doubt and any serious artist will ever return. I also predict that the Playa will be filled with golf carts decorated with Christmas lights and squeaky toy on the front.

Gothalot · Post by **Gothalot** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:32 pm

"Gigsville was a village consisting of thirtysomething theme camps, plus the personal living spaces of the people participating in the theme camps. Are you saying that you visited every one and found them all hostile or exclusionary? I doubt it. "

I said what I said and did not imply anything of the sort. I actually found most in Gigsville rather pleasent and concilatory. I did say that I personally did not want to participate in a part or section that closed sections off for private partys. I felt (and this is my personal oppinion) that I would have rather spent my creative and volunteer BRG time with groups that progressed and furthered fostered and enlightend the concepts of the Burning Man event. Who said anything about hostile? Wooo I'm being misquoted already.

deeohgeeman · Post by **deeohgeeman** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:42 pm

That's a hoot and a half. I find Gigsville in general to be one of the most welcoming groups I've ever run across, although to be sure there is no groupthink or giant homogenized clique there. It just happens to be a group that practices radical inclusion, which is one of the burning man ideals I hear talked about.

You don't say which camp in Gigsville, but it sounds to me like you are being overly harsh in your criticism if you were put off about having to return after their private dinnertime party was over. Who are you to say when people are allowed to carve out private time to bond with their friends in a huge city dedicated to radical self expression?

I have observed that a huge number of people eat dinner at or about that time in Black Rock and the streets are relatively empty, so I find it to be really off putting for you to insult people for trying to have dinner and cocktails in relative privacy. But then, reporters have a reputation for being insensitive. Maybe you should look in the mirror some more.

Long Love Gigsville

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:01 pm

It sounded to me, from your original post:

> I declined to return to Gigsville or any other camp like it

that you had confused a specific camp with the village. My mistake.

I stand by my opinion that being a theme camp doesn't mean being open 24/7, or open to every person at Burning Man. Your opinion is different. That's fine. I think it's clear you and I wouldn't be camping together anyway, so it's a moot point.

Gothalot · Post by **Gothalot** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:05 pm

Oh come on folks get real will ya? I'm not bashing gigsville here, I am saying it as it happened to me. I'm hardly being harsh. I have spoken to many regarding Gigsville and the concensis is that they were a good group to hang with or do what ever. I am mearly substantiating what the original poster had said. UNFRIENDLY, was HIS experience. Hell the Misfit Strippers were way friendly, they rawked! But lets be real and lets be truthful...

-Gisville had prime Esplinade real estate.
-Gigsville's theme had gates at the front.
When you get frontage property expect to share not close down (But lets rise above that issue okay).
-There were people who's opinions were that it was un-inviting.

If you want to do a theme camp that is called UNAPROACHABLE I'll be happy to lend you the barbed wire and the land mines. I can give you an address in Romania that still has some lying around, you just have to dig them up yourself.

Lets get off gigsville okay, there were others that were surely worth bagging on .

deeohgeeman · Post by **deeohgeeman** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:23 pm

Sorry, you opened the can of worms and now you're trying to seal it back up to avoid responsibility for your vitriol.

"IT" happened to me? You imply something bad happened to you, but so far we haven't heard the big bad thing. What happened exactly? The way you wrote it the first time it sounded like you asked for an interview and you were told when it would be convenient and you were offended somehow for a perfectly reasonable exchange/negotiation of time, and you broadcast your self righteous indignation as if you had been slapped across the face.

Your Words:
"A particular camp in Gigsville when approached to do an interview for the Gazette later on in the day said come back after 8pm, "we are having a party for the camp at 6pm". Basicly she was saying
that only the camp was allowed access. She then said "ooh come at 6pm that's okay". I felt mildly special at the invatation to an elite party however later I decided NOT to go, feeling that it was not in the spirit of Burning Man to lock anyone out of a camp for a so called special party at ANY time. I declined to return to Gigsville or any other camp like it. "

Get off your high horse. You first bash 300-400 unknown people of G'ville (you don't even exactly say what camp...there were dozens) for NOTHING (a little nothing perpetrated by ONE PERSON I might add) then when called on the carpet you pretend like you're not bashing and you try to blame someone else for starting it. What a FARCE.

I'm not surprised you were offended. People like you often are.

I feel compelled to point out that you are only offended by your ASSumptions about the people you meet and their inner motivations.

Gothalot · Post by **Gothalot** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 7:35 pm

deeohgeeman, sounds like you need to talk to Dr Phil about your issues. I wish you the best of luck in your life long comprehension of the world and its rantings.

clandyone · Post by **clandyone** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 7:45 pm

Anybody feel like explaining why a theme camp is obligated to have its doors open 24/7?

Dinnertime is a bad time for everyone, usually, for the simple reason that most of us can't afford to feed the whole damn playa. Not with all the goodwill in the world.

Gothalot · Post by **Gothalot** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 7:55 pm

I don't think any camp is obligated to be open 24 / 7 . Shut the lights out as many do. I think what I see happening quite often is that a certain number of groups will request space on the main drag for their theme camps but then not be in attendence or welcoming, choosing to hang with their own cliques which makes no room for genuine camps that want to offer something. On some camps I'd see hours of op's which helped.

clandyone · Post by **clandyone** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:06 pm

deeohgeeman wrote:A particular camp in Gigsville when approached to do an interview for the Gazette later on in the day said come back after 8pm, "we are having a party for the camp at 6pm". Basicly she was saying
that only the camp was allowed access. She then said "ooh come at 6pm that's okay". I felt mildly special at the invatation to an elite party however later I decided NOT to go, feeling that it was not in the spirit of Burning Man to lock anyone out of a camp for a so called special party at ANY time. I declined to return to Gigsville or any other camp like it.

Um, Gothalot, it looks like she DID give you their "hours of ops". You approached a camp uninvited and made a request, and they told you when they could best accomodate you. Where's the problem? Are you just bummed out that you weren't invited to their camp get-together? Camps are CERTAINLY entitled to have private parties. If all they had was private parties, and never let anyone in, you might have a point, but demanding to be invited to someone else's party is really uncouth.

When I was growing up it was hammered into my head that mentioning parties to people who aren't invited is the height of rudeness, and if I were your Gigsvillian I'd just have said "That's not a good time for us, how about 8?" But your insistence that Esplanade camps never ever have private parties is just ludicrous.

I was in an Esplanade camp. We busted ass on our interactive art thing all week, and handed out dozens of unique and beautiful gifts. We had a little fete just for us on Sunday night, to celebrate the good job we'd done and pat ourselves on the back and hang out with people we might not have seen all week. It was fun. We needed it. And it would have been a totally different thing if we had opened it up to all and sundry... we would have become hosts again, after being hosts all week. Hosts need a break. You would deny them that?

Halo Joe · Post by **Halo Joe** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:10 pm

> the spirit of Burning Man

Saturday night, I saw an individual jump off an art installation from a height of more than 12 feet and attack another man. Both worked on the installation; one was the designer. I'm pretty sure meth or some similar substance was involved, judging by the look in the eyes of the participants.

Based on that and some of the other things I witnessed in my nine days on the playa this year -- our village sign was vandalized because some drunken assholes thought we should've stayed open 24 hours a day to feed them as much alcohol as they wanted -- it seems that sort of behavior has become just as much "the spirit of Burning Man" as anything else. I hope y'all forgive me if I don't invoke that phrase to artificially bolster any point I'm trying to make.

Theme camps and villages have a tough job, even though it's one they take on voluntarily. And yes, a requirement of Esplanade camps and villages is 24/7 interactivity. But everyone needs a break, and there are times when a special moment (such as an anniversary recognition in our village) could be spoiled by some belligerent moron stumbling up and wailing: "Yo! Gimme a drink!"

No offense, but many "participants" don't seem to appreciate what camps bring to the event.

There. Now, I'm going to go catch up on my bathing.

Gothalot · Post by **Gothalot** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 10:41 pm

deeohgeeman,

--- "you might have a point, but demanding to be invited to someone else's party is really uncouth."

I demanded nothing. So please save your ASSumptions.

---"your insistence that Esplanade camps never ever have private parties is just ludicrous."

I never insisted on that at all, your continuious distortion of the truth negates your argument, wait, what is the argument anyhow?

I would never falt a camp for throwing a party for themselves so sease claiming that I would. This thread was about the openess or lack there of from many camps. Try not to take this as a personal attack but as a constructive critisism.

[/i]

Gothalot · Post by **Gothalot** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 10:56 pm

deeohgeeman,

--- "you might have a point, but demanding to be invited to someone else's party is really uncouth."

I demanded nothing. So please save your ASSumptions.

---"your insistence that Esplanade camps never ever have private parties is just ludicrous."

I never insisted on that at all, your continuious distortion of the truth negates your argument, wait, what is the argument anyhow?

I would never falt a camp for throwing a party for themselves so sease claiming that I would. This thread was about the openess or lack there of from many camps. Try not to take this as a personal attack but as a constructive critisism.

[/i]

deeohgeeman · Post by **deeohgeeman** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 11:13 pm

Note how Gothalot stoops to putting other people's words in my mouth and insulting me personally without cause, after I politely and carefully point out his/her misappropriated anger and wishy washy flimflam nature so other people won't be bamboozled by it.

This is better evidence than any argument I could have made.

Thank you, Gothalot, that's what I call Topmost Fuckwittery.

S/He could just as easily have said, "I'm Rubber, You're Glue..."

Keep on digging.

Dr. Pyro · Post by **Dr. Pyro** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:01 am

Sure Gigsville can be impersonal, but our camp [Barbie Death Camp & Wine Bistro] bordered them and we found our "neighbors" to be rather helpful. If you wanted to meet a camp where the "hosts" were really a-holes, you should have wandered by the Green Gorilla Lounge. Talk about your unpleasent bartenders. It wasn't "How are you doing" but rather "What the fuck do you have for me jerkoff?" Then the string of vulgarities that followed even made me blush and run off in horror. Some people need a swift kick in the ass once in a while.

The Doc

Gothalot · Post by **Gothalot** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:26 am

deeohgeeman,

Hypocracy runs rampant in your writing. (rolls eyes) I suggest you stick with the thread. No one's making personal attacks on you, you rate yourself much to high. How about addressing the issues of the thread okay? If you wish to vent spleen I suggest you find somewhere else to do it.

slut · Post by **slut** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:50 am

There may have been "unapproachable" theme camps but this gigsville example is terrible. What if part of the party had been a discussion of how to make things run more smoothly for the rest of the fest? That wouldn't be possible if it was open to anyone who wanted to drop by. Hell, they gave you another time and just said these two hours weren't good. If you have a better example use it, slamming gigsville (a fantastic place) because a single camp says two hours are bad isn't right.

Some Theme Camps unaproachable

Some Theme Camps unaproachable

cliques

cliques

further ramblings

Holy Whoresdom Batgirl!

Get deep

Some Theme Camp Goes Rude and Distructive

In context

Gigsville unapproachable?

awe come on

Burning man is 7-11?

Next year, I'm going to Denali

The Fuckwit puts his Head up his Ass

Sounds like a bad example to me