Busted by the cops at the burn

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tbone
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Postby tbone » Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:13 pm

ubu wrote:That or organize enough to get some reasonable civil rights back.


Sounds good.
However, smoking dope at teh burn isn't "organizing to get your rights". It's smoking dope on FEDERAL land.

One guy was ticketed for tylenol 3 which he claimed he had a prescription for but put in a pill box.


What a fuckwit.
Let's see... I'm going to a place where the cops are looking for drugs, so I'll take them in an unmarked container - even though they come in a container with my name on them. If I was cop, I'd do the same thing.

Now, you could applaud the cops and chastise the free spirits who want the freedom do what they will with their own bodies, but I'll call you a docile body and a victim of the panopticon. I call this behavior by the cops over and unneccessary policing of adults.


Call it whatever you like.
It's not legal to take drugs.

Hell, I'll even join you in the rally cry of "it's not fair". It's illegal. Deal with it.

Burning Man does not change the law.
Can't smoke pot, can't drive over 0.08, can't shoot smack, can't fuck an 8 year old. Just deal with it.

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Lydia Love
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Postby Lydia Love » Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:22 pm

Can't smoke pot, can't drive over 0.08, can't shoot smack


Well, you CAN just don't get caught and don't whine if ya do.

can't fuck an 8 year old


And in this case you better not get caught by ME.

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s5
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Postby s5 » Fri Sep 05, 2003 7:15 pm

tbone wrote:What a fuckwit.
Let's see... I'm going to a place where the cops are looking for drugs, so I'll take them in an unmarked container - even though they come in a container with my name on them. If I was cop, I'd do the same thing.


so you support having the police harass people for engaging in legal behavior? i'm glad you're not a cop.

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Postby PJ » Fri Sep 05, 2003 7:19 pm

tbone wrote:...can't fuck an 8 year old...


That's 56 in dog years.

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Lydia Love
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Postby Lydia Love » Fri Sep 05, 2003 7:21 pm

Ok - so you can fuck an 8 yo dog...

I may have just crossed one of my own lines there...

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tbone
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Postby tbone » Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:32 pm

s5 wrote:
tbone wrote:What a fuckwit.
Let's see... I'm going to a place where the cops are looking for drugs, so I'll take them in an unmarked container - even though they come in a container with my name on them. If I was cop, I'd do the same thing.


so you support having the police harass people for engaging in legal behavior? i'm glad you're not a cop.


What's legal about carrying prescription meds in an unmarked container?

Where did I say they should be harrased?

The cop has a job to enforce the law; the law they didn't wrote, and may not even agree with. They are 1/3 of the process; the enforcement process. If you don't like the law, help change it. In the mean time, deal with it.

Yes, I'd like to see most drug laws overturned and thousands of people let out of prison. In the meantime, it's still against the law to carry your meds in a plain bottle. And it's stupid.

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Postby bradDaDad » Tue Sep 09, 2003 1:10 am


ubu
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Postby ubu » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:10 pm

no, tbone, they precisely do not need to enforce every law, nor could they even imagine attempting to enforce every law. their primary responsibility is public safety and maintaing peace and order.

searching and harassing people is not the best use of their or other people's time. In fact, BMORG has been doing its best to gently encourage the LEOs to focus on more helpful things such as rescue and safety.

There will be exceptions and unlucky incidents of overzealous and frankly illegal search and siezure, and these incidents will hopefully be minimized in the future.

I think the individual cited for meds without a prescription will successfully contest his citation by providing a record of such a prescription. what he will not recover is the hour of harassment and detainment, and the searching that ensued of his person and his tent. it was really quite silly and completely unnecessary. It is a game that the cops seem to enjoy unfortunately.

To me, it represents an erosion of the right to privacy and is an example of harassment and unreasonable search and siezure. ymmv.

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Postby electrolux » Tue Sep 09, 2003 1:19 pm

I see drug busts on the playa as a Darwinian process. A conservative estimate would be that about 10,000 burners partake in some sort of illegal drug consumption, and every year there's about 100-200 tickets issued. That means that the dumbest (or unluckiest) 1-2% are going to have problems, and the rest will be ok. Knowing your rights will go a long way to helping you if things go badly.
Cops this year seemed pretty low-key. Didn't hear too many bad stories out there. The only time I really noticed there presence was when a nearby camp had their art-car jacked, and the cops were making a big production about investigating it.

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Postby ubu » Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:05 pm

know your rights. exactly. be polite but never consent to search. say nothing.

it's not so much darwinian, my friend, as arbitrary. arbitrary enforcement combined with the relative probability that just about any playa denizen will have some kind of controlled substance on their person or in their tent equals a perfect game and playground for the BLM.

And your impression of LEO activity at any given time will be a result of your experience, just like any other impression of Burning Man. Highly contingent.

In fact, the majority of the truly stupid drug takers will not be ticketed and there is a chance that even the subdued and privacy seeking will be ticketed arbitrarily. It's a joke and perfectly arbitrary.

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Postby tbone » Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:50 pm

There's a session timer that has killed almost every reply I've made that wasn't just a "shoot from the hip" answer. This will be short.

I don't hope that the cops harrass anybody. However, you're an idiot to think that if you're caught with a joint, you won't be searched. If you're searched, and have an unmarked bottle of pills... well that's just plain old stupid. And illegal.

ubu wrote:searching and harassing people is not the best use of their or other people's time. In fact, BMORG has been doing its best to gently encourage the LEOs to focus on more helpful things such as rescue and safety.


It may not be the best use of their time, but it is reality.

I think the individual cited for meds without a prescription will successfully contest his citation by providing a record of such a prescription. what he will not recover is the hour of harassment and detainment, and the searching that ensued of his person and his tent. it was really quite silly and completely unnecessary.


I'll agree that it was "quite silly and completely unnecessary". Had the pills been in the bottle from the pharmacy, it wouldn't have happened.

Sadly, they'll never get their hour back.
Neither will the LEOs who had to waste their time with an avoidable drug bust. Nor the judge who has to hear the case. Nor will the public defender (if they get one). Nor will the LOEs who have to go back to court.

It's going to cost a lot of time (and that means money) for an avoidable drug bust. "quite silly and completely unnecessary".

To me, it represents an erosion of the right to privacy and is an example of harassment and unreasonable search and siezure. ymmv.


Where in your right to privacy does it say you get to break laws? Smoking dope in public, on public land is asking for a bust.

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Postby ubu » Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:13 pm

ah that's the rub tbone. you do have the reasonable right to privacy inside your own tent on or off public land. that is the law, and the leos must follow that law as much anyone who does not carry a gun. if that privacy is violated you have grounds for complaint. just as they cannot search your vehicle without probable cause, they cannot search your tent without same.
the fact that they sometimes do is a matter for internal leo discipline and for public complaint. the county leos scaled way back after last year's fiasco and the chorus of complaints that ensued. now if you are doing something outside of your tent, that is another matter entirely.

the right to privacy is just that a right. if they break that right to privacy and then discover something illegal after breaking that right, then they lose the game. they win the game if they establish that they noted illegal activity before they entered a domicile without a warrant. that domicile can be on or off public land.

if they set the fines low enough that even the innocent and the violated do not bother to contest and complain, then they win the game as well. That is the line they are playing on the playa.

as for these unnecessary citations being a waste of the leo's time, that's a laugh. they enjoy searching young ladies quite a bit judging by way they searched our domicile and lingered on the young ladies with nary a thing on let alone a pocket! it was truly a joke. they seemed to have nothing better to do and to have all the time in the world.

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Postby Crispinaff » Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:38 pm

UBU,

Are you talking about the imposing 6'9" federal cop from utah, Jason? I just kept thinking about how much worse things could have been. Nobody got kicked out or hauled down to the station. Nobody got deported, handcuffed, or roughed up. It certainly was a drag to have any cop interaction at all but I have to say that it was immeasurably mild to what it could have been (and what I have witnessed in life!)

And hey if this note comes from my fellow freaks close to the corner of Absurd and Theory, Chateau Blah blah, email me so I can stay in touch. I sure hope you change your mind about next year's return cause I wouldn't want to miss you!

Love, . . . and Gratitude to you all.

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Postby Borris » Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:55 pm

PJ wrote:I wonder if it's even worth mentioning that one way to have no concerns about cops at Burning Man is to not do anything illegal?


Is this at all possible???
Shit, where was i for the last week... ehm...

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Borris
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Postby Borris » Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:56 pm

tbone wrote:What part of "no vending" changes when you want drugs? No vending = no vending.
The only *possible* exception I could see would be for the folks who fly in from other countries. On th eother hand, if you can't live without your drugs for a week, stay home and go to rehab.


I know several overseas types (Not myself though) that could spend a week without drugs, but why? and especialy at the most psychedelic city on the planet...
Shit, where was i for the last week... ehm...

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tbone
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Postby tbone » Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:12 am

Borris wrote:
PJ wrote:I wonder if it's even worth mentioning that one way to have no concerns about cops at Burning Man is to not do anything illegal?


Is this at all possible???


Yes, it's easy.

What's illegal out there?
Drunk driving. Drugs. Having sex with a minor. Theft. Arson. Murder.

What am I leaving out?

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Postby tbone » Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:15 am

Borris wrote:I know several overseas types (Not myself though) that could spend a week without drugs, but why? and especialy at the most psychedelic city on the planet...


Because of the 30,000+ people out there, not all of them do drugs.

It may be "the most psychedelic city on the planet" to you, but it certainly isn't to the folks who don't use.

When are people going to figure out that there's a different B M experience for each person there?

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Postby Zane5100 » Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:17 am

tbone wrote:When are people going to figure out that there's a different B M experience for each person there?


That's no shit.
middle-aged, wannabe-hipster, dilettante

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Postby blyslv » Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:19 am

PJ wrote:
casnimot wrote:many of the true stoners I know seem to seriously lack common sense.


It seemed to me that there were fewer LEOs on the playa this year. I saw a few cruise by our bar, but the didn't stop for a drink ... to bad I had some nice out fits that would have looked smashing with those belts.

I can't smoke on the playa, it makes me too anti-social.
Fight for the fifth freedom!

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Postby blyslv » Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:24 am

ubu wrote: It is a game that the cops seem to enjoy unfortunately.


Adreneline is the drug of choice for drug warriors. They dig it. They like the thrill of the chase, the games of cat and mouse. It must be a major rush. It can't be because they feel like they are making a positive contribution to society.
Fight for the fifth freedom!

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Postby doc_faustroll » Wed Sep 10, 2003 12:14 pm

blyslv wrote:Adreneline is the drug of choice for drug warriors. They dig it. They like the thrill of the chase, the games of cat and mouse.


It must go someways toward alleviating boredom I suppose. And it makes you feel as if you are doing something as well I suppose.

Stimulants of all kinds are the background and subtext of the entire post-enlightenment era. Voltaire drank 40 cups of coffee a day. US troops in Afghanistan are taking some form of speed to stay awake whilst combatting, etc. Would the majority of dayjobbers make it without coffee or tea?

Stimulants in other eras were considered religious sacraments. in our day, they are the ground.
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drugs

Postby galaxybeing » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:23 pm

I'm sure all the cops at BM take drugs. I'm sure they all drink coffee (Caffene) and some smoke cigs (Nicotine). I'm sure in their off time they drink booze (Alcohol). I'm sure if one of them drinks too much coffee it could affect his behaviour. Everybody takes drugs, don't they? It's just a matter of one segment of society discriminating against another for their choice of drugs. If I drink alcohol it usually makes me sick. But I like to partake of the herb because it makes me feel stimulated. I feel as though I'm discriminated against by the government and the rest of society. IT's just like a gay guy in texas when sodomy was illegal. A person in that situation can either allow the discrimination to make them what they are not, or they have to break the law.

I mean it's like one group wanting their eggs poached, and the other wanting their eggs fried, and the poached people making frying eggs illegal. They are just a bunch of hypocrites.


On the prescription drug thing, I took several bottles of prescription drugs, but I also took a multi-chamber bill box that I load up with pills I take each day.. but I didn't take the bottles. I guess i could have been cited. Next time I'll bring all the paperwork.

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III
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Postby III » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:48 pm

>but why?

because it's illegal, and brc llc and the burning man festival abide by all federal and local laws.

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Postby precipitate » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:06 pm

> A person in that situation can either allow the discrimination to make
> them what they are not, or they have to break the law

Oh bullshit. There are always choices. The best choice in that situation, in
my opinion, is to work to change discriminatory laws. Don't have the
energy for that? Fine, accept your situation. No one said it would be easy.

But if you do break the law, you have absolutely no right to expect that
law enforcement will treat that action as OK just because you feel the
law is unfair. They have a job to do, and they're doing it.

That's kind of what this whole thread is about.

Our society has laws. In large part, they're what help grease the social
skids in a country of umpteen hundred million adults. They're not all
good, and lots of people don't agree on all of them. You want a place
where you can do whatever you want? Great. Go buy an island.
Otherwise, work within the system (or even outside the system,
accepting that until you succeed you are still subject to the laws
you want to change) to effect change. But don't tell me you don't
have any choices. You always do.

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Re: Busted by the cops at the burn

Postby girlie » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:24 pm

>>it does not say, i plead guilty or i plead no contest, it only says i wish to terminate this matter by paying the above fine of $250.

There should be a check box on the fine that will allow them to pay the fine without any admission of guilt. It is not a criminal conviction, just a violation notice. If the fine is paid within 21 days your friends shouldn't have any problem with immigration, etc., as they have not pleaded guilty to anything or been convicted of any crime.

One important note about all this is that after searching your dome the BLM officers could have then chosen to search any tents or cars in your area. It doesn't take much for LEOs to state that a group of tents are all one camp, and therefore under suspicion.

Once at a separate camping trip i had my vehicle thoroughly searched just because it was parked near a camp where they'd found illegal fireworks. It is advisable for everyone to watch out for their illegal activities not just to cover their own assses but so they don't bring unexpected searches to their campmates and neighbours.
Last edited by girlie on Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby captain mcguiver » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:31 pm

One idea a lot of people have been having to protect themselves is this:

Have a tent in your camp that is completely set up as someone's personal tent, but isn't. Keep everyones wallets/id's in this tent.

When you get "busted", you take the LEO's back to this SAFE tent which has nothing illegal in it. They search it, they get your id. No additional charges. This is fairly important.

A better idea is to keep some form of ID with you. It is my understanding that wherever your ID is, that is your "home" at BM. They will search your home and find your E stash and then your marijuana charge gets heightened. Sounds like a smart idea.

We can play the game better than they can.

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Postby Borris » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:36 pm

tbone wrote:It may be "the most psychedelic city on the planet" to you, but it certainly isn't to the folks who don't use.

When are people going to figure out that there's a different B M experience for each person there?


I agree about the different experience. and being Psychedelic doesn't require drugs. I did quite alot of psychedelics when i was younger and traveling, not anymore, I still enjoy them ocasionaly (quite rarely) but i can appreciate psychedelia soberly. I was completly sober at the burn this year (and found out that it has turned into a religeous ceremony that i didn't like to much) and most festival days as well, (except for a couple of occasions, one of them was the meet and greet when i found out that you do not mix Grape and Grain!!!) I'm not saying Everyone should do drugs, I'm only saying that there is no real reason not to do them if u want (and if u are informed enough about it and responsible enough to be able to take care of yourself during the effect and and come out of this in one piece)


III wrote:>but why?

because it's illegal, and brc llc and the burning man festival abide by all federal and local laws.


Then the brc llc and The Man shouldn't take drugs, I never stated that i abide by federal and local laws. I am trying th change the laws of my country (hell, we lacked only 6,000 votes last election to get a parliament member for the legalization party). I have a strong feeling that The Man was on drugs this year, couldn't even lift his arm up.
Shit, where was i for the last week... ehm...

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Postby doc_faustroll » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:42 pm

III wrote:>but why?

because it's illegal, and brc llc and the burning man festival abide by all federal and local laws.


Yes it is illegal. However, burning man bends some laws such as laws that control public display of nudity. Not that one expects them to be able to bend substance control laws. too many fingers in that pie.

Pretty soon, Ephedra may become a controlled substance. That will be a hoot because ephedra nevadensis is one of the staples of the desert. Hell, even the Mormons used to get away with drinking ephedra tea when they couldn't drink coffee or black tea. Due to the abuse of a desert plant, and a culture that blames the substance and not the individual for sociall ill, yet another lovely plant will be controlled and banned.

I can just see the BLM now. "Why I have to fine you for the Mormon Tea in your campsite, it's the law" "it just blew in here officer." "I'm sorry, it's the law. I'm just doing my job"
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Chimp
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Postby Chimp » Thu Sep 11, 2003 6:46 am

It doesn't seem too harsh to issue a fine, at least they aren't arresting people but really I guess it depends where that money goes - it all seems a bit pointless harrassing people who yeah like obviously have substances. At festivals like Glastonbury (which got out of hand, couple of shootings in the nineties have led to a very high fence keeping out all the freaks, travellers and street dealers who got in for free, hell we all got in for free back then - unfortunately some of the magic of Albion has gone away with those cats as well) the police pay very little attention to someone smoking pot and generally will only bust someone obviously dealing. The same goes for the Notting Hill Carnival and Brixton is now virtually decriminalised in terms of cannabis because of a gay police commisioner who had enjoyed the odd toke (he did leave the force soon after the smoking revelation however).

In a way we need a place where we can let off steam in any ordered society - The Greeks and the Romans had very stringent laws in their societies and yet for a peroid each year they would celebrate Dionysius and Bachuss in massive orgiastical excessive week long parties (ring any bells?) where most of those laws simply didn't apply (I am not suggesting Caligula as role model for a leader here though folks)

In Europe we have Mayday where traditionally everyone goes mental - In london people get together to rave, and very often riot, outside the houses of Parliament. It is generally accepted as well by the Metropolitan Police that Rastas can smoke as part of their religion. Of course people still get busted, but confiscation is usually all that happens with small amounts.

I met a dude in Centre Camp one night who I spent a good couple of hours with smoking some very fat joints he was rolling - Now this guy was a soldier (believe me he was, built like a hard MF) and he had just got back from a tour of duty in Afghanistan (to be honest at the time as the stories went on I began to wonder if he was a prankster, well I was high - either way he was one of the coolest people I met at BM a true playa star) and he was like 'If a cop fucks with me I will snap him in half' - I believed him.

Interesting propsition would a cop bust a man that has just served time in the army for his country? - That would suck BIGTIME huh

Finally, my friend from London who made it out there was late because of being busted for a traffic offence, he wasn't aware he was 5 Miles over the limit, apparently there were no signs and he was going through a reservation (I wasn't there so don't know the exact details) but he said for the search, abusive treatment and five hundred dollar fine he got that the cop may as well have just had done with it and raped him.

Theres good cops and bad cops, just like anything I guess, I am glad they are there, especially after reading all the sexual violence posts. On the whole I thought the policing of BM was pretty low key and thankfully had no hassle from any LEA's - one guy I met who did get caught out said the guy was cool with him. Funny - The cop didn't believe that they only had 1 bag of weed in his camp

COP: "There is no way this is enough drugs for all of you"

East Coast Stoner: "it's REALLY good shit"

Classic

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Postby ubu » Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:39 am

oh chimp my friend such matter and impertinency mixed in your post.

I'm glad the uk is a little more rational than the us. I hope we get there some day.

As for your friend in center camp, noone gives a marsupial's ass if he was or was not in Afghanistan. I don't doubt that he was. He would be no protection however, if you were caught in center camp smoking reefer.
He'd be ticketed the same as anyone if the keystone kops of arbitrary enforcement came upon your bull session in mid smoke, and you would be searched. If he tried to crack some skulls, all 20 of the BLM Rangers would pile on him, and he'd be tossed in a cooling cell.

You have the right to refuse search if they have not witnessed "criminal activity," period. So your other friend had the right to refuse search after being stopped for speeding.

Be politely uncooperative. Don't flaunt your interest in smoking reefer.
Don't do it in center camp unless you like the risk and want to contribute more funds to the central violations bureau.


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