Can someone please help me understand what this is?

PEZ · Post by **PEZ** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:12 am

I saw these things popping up everywhere, at the end of the experience, on Sunday and Monday (which is when I filmed this one).

The CO · Post by **The CO** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:31 am

That is a smoke ring, probably from a fire cannon. Though what that would be doing at BM, I can't imagine.

PEZ · Post by **PEZ** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:56 pm

They weren't all black like that one. Some of them seemed to be formed purely of playa dust. Why only on Sunday and Monday and not all week long?

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:59 pm

There is at least one mobile fire cannon as well as Nate Smiths' BLEVE cannons. He made some huge smoke rings on Sunday morning.

Post by **Eric** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:59 pm

it was indeed a fire cannon, there are indeed way more than one of them, and, yes, most of the ones I've seen were mobile (otherwise they couldn't have gotten to the playa, could they?)

As for why you only saw them on Sunday/Monday... I have no idea. I saw them a couple of times during the week. It may just be that you only noticed them a couple of times- there's a lot going on out there.

I also have no idea why some are white and some are black- I assume it's the fuel they use.

PEZ · Post by **PEZ** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:02 pm

Thank you! and... I want one. hehehe

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:08 pm

Here is a picture of one on Nates' 4 BLEVE cannons he used this year. He changes the fuel mixture a little for smoke rings. Its' primary purpose was flame effects.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:57 pm

The Man was blowing smoke-rings, pilgrim.

madmatt · Post by **madmatt** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:40 pm

PEZ wrote:They weren't all black like that one. Some of them seemed to be formed purely of playa dust. Why only on Sunday and Monday and not all week long?

They did do them at other times of the week. I saw several. I'm no expert, but I believe that they are done with fire cannons, doing a propane blast in a particular direction or with certain adjustments to make the smoke form the ring. If you saw one of pure playa dust, it was a different phenom.

I always thought they were cool looking, but very very dirty.

PEZ · Post by **PEZ** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:22 pm

Yes, very cool looking, but yes, very dirty. Yeah, the ones I saw that seemed to be playa dust were not necessarily circles like that. They were more like whirl winds detached from the surface of the playa. The reason I say whirl winds instead of dust devil is because I was talking with an old burner when I noticed the first one. He said dust devil is a derogatory term used by the white invaders of america and that the natives spoke of them as ancestors.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:29 pm

...we had one at a Halloween party in Boise in 2005 that was permitted (with many ems/police watching) that was maybe 200 yards from an interstate. Every time it fired off a multitude of beepers would simultaneously go off in the crowd 2-3 minutes later (as someone called it in to 911). The creator of this one was an ex-fire chief!

Not too hard to make.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:40 pm

OK, here's the deal but don't tell anyone I was being helpful or anything.

Mm'k?

http://tinyurl.com/26wljy

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:03 pm

Here is how Nate does it with the BLEVE cannons.

Post by **Eric** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:37 pm

Well look at that- the bleve cannon makes white-ish rings, the one Badger posted makes black rings.

Hmmm. Smoke ring color mystery solved?

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:59 pm

Are there any kind of certs required to do a BLEVE effect? Not that I have any interest in doing anything that serious any time in the near future. From what little I know about BLEVE it seems to be only for pros and never for amatuers to play with. The first smoke ring effect look a little more manageable to make. I wonder how much time was spent tweaking hole locations and size etc etc. Is there a pyrotech "bible" out there somewhere or is all of it trial and error and wisdom passed down through the trade? Either way the stuffs cool as hell and I'm glad you folks share their talent with the rest of the world.

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:43 pm

If you are refering to certs to bring it to the Playa, the answer is NO. If you wish to do something like that in your town, that might be another matter. There are no manuals on most of these effects. If you bring it to the Playa you must get a laminate from the PST. Most of the learning seems to be done through osmosis. You will find that most of the artists building these devices will be more than happy to tell you about their work. From there you can modify or improve upon what has been done or start with a fresh idea. Nate Smith has come up with some really nice original ideas and he is brillant in his construction. I had no experience with fire art when I built my first "device" and it worked well. The first year I brought it to BM I was placed out by the trash fence, "just in case" it didn't function as planned. I have added several updates for new effects since then and I am trying something new for 08'. Trial and error mixed with some imagination.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:03 am

As far as certifications there is nothing official that I could find in California. For public flame effects, again in California, you do need to get consent from the local fire chief and a million dollars in insurance (which costs about $500 a night). It seems that most people get their pyrotechnics license to please the fire chiefs and insurance companies, even though a pyrotechnics license covers explosives, not flame effects. I guess since in many ways pyro is more dangerous, it proves some competency in the area.

If anyone has any more info on that I'd like to know.

As with smoke rings, we recently figured out how to make them with out fire cannon. Most of the time fire cannons do not make rings by default. For ours, you have to open the valve a little slower (maybe around 1 full second to open it). You'll hear the propane wizzing through before the boom. My assumption is that this creates the spinning motion of the gasses which traps them in the ring shape.

BitterDan · Post by **BitterDan** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:21 am

I think it's a UFO.

pinemom · Post by **pinemom** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:38 am

The smoke rings you see in pic. are designed, built and owned by Dave King Of Reno fire conclave, Controlled Burn.
although I believe some else had one too as well this year

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:32 am

Nate Smith is like a tiny god.

BitterDan · Post by **BitterDan** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:29 pm

skygod wrote:Nate Smith is like a tiny god.

So is my wiener.

duke of weimar · Post by **duke of weimar** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:13 am

could it be that now we know why Dan is bitter? after all, he compared his wiener to a 'tiny god' . . . . .

**burn** · Post by **burn** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:44 pm

So can anyone explain the gray in the rules stating no firearms or fireworks? There seem to be lots of flames, flames and cannons.

burnbaby

Post by **Eric** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:23 pm

**burn** wrote:So can anyone explain the gray in the rules stating no firearms or fireworks? There seem to be lots of flames, flames and cannons.

burnbaby

No gray area- flames, flame effects & flame cannons are all controllable- you (should) know what they're going to do, and can control which way they're pointed. I believe the big flame items need to get approval from the LLC, you can't just haul a flame cannon out there and start shooting it off, but I'm not positive on this.

Fireworks aren't allowed as you can't control where they're going to land. BRC is mainly a tent city- one tent on fire can spread to a lot of it's neighbors before it can be brought under control, and if that tent is near a car or a fuel source.....*oi*

That's also the reason you're not supposed to have Tiki Torches or camp fires- safety.

As for firearms in a city filled with 50,000 drunk & partying people.... I'll let you figure that one out.

**burn** · Post by **burn** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:36 pm

Eric - While I am new to the eplaya, this is not my first ride on the merry-go-round. The fire hazard as well as the firearm safety issues are apparent to me. That's why I am curious about the 'gray' area.

Are air-propelled potato 'guns' allowed?

What about fireworks that are created to produce almost no spark, but a loud bang?

burnbaby

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:54 pm

No firearms are a BLM stipulation. A potatoe gun is not really a firearm. However, I don't think the BLM Rangers would take kindly to such a device, as fun as they are. Also, there is the matter of picking up the moop. My potatoe gun will launch a spud further than I wish to walk to clean it up. As far as fireworks, if you are doing a performance that incorporates pyro, you can get approval from the Performance Safety Team pyro expert. No 1.3G (old Class B) is permitted. You would also need to demonstrate to the PST that you are capable of safely using the product in your performance and have the proper perimeter for safety AND clean up ALL the debris. Once that is done a Pyro laminate will be issued. If you are discharging any pyro without the laminate, the BLM can and will issue a citation.

**burn** · Post by **burn** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:08 pm

Dustdevil - Exactly what I needed to know. The potato gun would not actually launch a potato, and lack of MOOP is definitely being considered.
I will follow up with the PST. Thank you.

babyburn

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:28 pm

I PM'd you with a message about your projects.

Jack

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:47 pm

Aren't the really huge smoke rings done with a large metal ring with jets?

I was told this but can't verify it.
I have seen the device but not in action.

There are colored smoke rings sometimes too.

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:57 pm

The large smoke ring from Nates' BLEVE cannon is created by careful use of the fuel pressure, a low wind condition and a mixture that will be rich in unburned hydrocarbons. IE more oils and diesel and less highly flammable materials, gasoline etc. I do not have any technical info on the other units out there.