I want to hear more about THIS!

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Risky
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I want to hear more about THIS!

Post by Risky » Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:01 pm

I read an article in the Black Rock Beacon about undercover stings for on playa bars that did not properly identify whether partakers were old enough to drink and issued hefty fines.

While I understand that the laws are required to still be upheld at BRC, I haven't heard of fines being issed before.

Is this new?

Deb - are you able to post the article? I was unable to find it in the online archives.

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mdmf007
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Post by mdmf007 » Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:40 pm

Its BM? unless it is painfully obvious that a minor is drinking in your tavern / bar on playa I havent seen LE bustin people over ages.

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Post by theCryptofishist » Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:45 pm

I hear rumors every year.

Dammit, didn't they say that the cops came into Booby Bar, try the sting and not get served? Didn't we get a "job well done?"
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zorro sings
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Post by zorro sings » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:29 pm

On Burn Saturday 11"bars"got busted.I put bars in quotes as we were one of them and we are not even a bar.As we were packing things up Saturday afternoon someone in our camp offered an undercover plant a drink out of our cooler which was sitting on the floor.Result was a $1,150 fine which I as,camp"owner",will end up paying.Before someone suggests"Lawyers for Burners",forget it.Useless!!!!The only one we were put in touch with wanted $750 to handle the case and will not return phone calls to discuss details.
Be careful. You can spend all your money in there..............................Oriental Visitor

spectabillis
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Post by spectabillis » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:04 pm

second personal verification.
zorro sings wrote:The only one we were put in touch with wanted $750 to handle the case and will not return phone calls to discuss details.
was this an attorney that was recommended by someone from lawyers for burners?

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Post by Elderberry » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:01 am

Two bars in adjacent camps were cited--one twice! You'd think they would have learned after the first citation.

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Post by Sham » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:53 am

As I'm reading this thread, I am remembering a 20ish year old who came into our camp and just asked if he could get a beer from us. No small talk and no other connection to him.
I thought of him as more of a freeloader and sent him away, but in retrospect, he was probably part of a sting. Our camp probably avoided a big fine just by dumb luck since I never gave much thought to under age drinkers.
Also, I have never know anyone who actually carries a lisence while on the playa for fear of losing it. For those of us flying, losing a lisence would absolutely prevent us from getting on a plane, so that is a huge concern.
This is all just another reason for the police to justify their presense and numbers.

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Post by spectabillis » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:55 am

which two were next to each other, and what camp was issued two citations?

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Post by teardropper » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:18 am

[quote="theCryptofishist"]I hear rumors every year.

Dammit, didn't they say that the cops came into Booby Bar, try the sting and not get served? Didn't we get a "job well done?"[/quote]

The Booby Bar asked me some good questions, including "Can you legally drink in the State of Nevada?" I am 61 and they were Covering their Ass. Good for them, I say. All should ask those questions and leave it the underage to lie. By the way, Boobie Bar was one of my favorites, they played rock 'n roll.
\^/
/..\ Furthur

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Post by ygmir » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:41 am

yeah, I'm wondering something else:

is there a difference between serving for "money" and, just having a party, no charge at the bar?..........
seems BM, with no "charge", would fit into a party catagory........and, are you required, at your home, to ask for I.D.?.........I thought the legal drinking age related to purchase. Is it not legal for a 16 year old to sip wine with dinner in their home?......

Just wondering about the minutia and "details"..............seems there'd be a loophole there somewhere......
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Post by kiuney » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:52 am

We do a lot of burner house parties and underage drinkers are always a concern. If you're bringing someone under 21, you have to check with the host first and if they say it's okay, that person is your responsibility. We've had underage folks show up before and we generally watch them until they leave (unless they're with someone we know and trust to watch them). The cops do occasionally show up at our parties and we don't want to give them one more reason to give us problems.
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zorro sings
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Post by zorro sings » Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:24 am

spectabillis wrote:
was this an attorney that was recommended by someone from lawyers for burners?
Not sure exactly what"Lawyers for Burners"entails but this came from, what I was told,a lawyer who works for the Burning Man Org.Nothing came from the"survey"I sent in that's for sure and the"Lawyers for Burners"web site was a joke.

I would gladly fight this if the lawyer I was put in touch with inspired even a modicum of confidence.As it is I am looking at a guaranteed $750 lawyer fee with no assurance that a further $1,150 would not be added on top of it.
Be careful. You can spend all your money in there..............................Oriental Visitor

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C.f.M.
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Re: I want to hear more about THIS!

Post by C.f.M. » Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:29 am

Risky wrote:I read an article in the Black Rock Beacon about undercover stings for on playa bars that did not properly identify whether partakers were old enough to drink and issued hefty fines.

While I understand that the laws are required to still be upheld at BRC, I haven't heard of fines being issed before.

Is this new?

Deb - are you able to post the article? I was unable to find it in the online archives.
I only know of one, Quixote's/Man and Monkey (something like that), a British pub at....7 and E-ish? There was an article in the paper, and they had a jar to raise money to cover the $1500 (I think) fine for serving an alleged undercover minor.

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Post by spectabillis » Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:35 am

zorro sings wrote:Not sure exactly what"Lawyers for Burners"entails but this came from, what I was told,a lawyer who works for the Burning Man Org.Nothing came from the"survey"I sent in that's for sure and the"Lawyers for Burners"web site was a joke.
i cant tell, but it seems either you have been told incorrect information, or i am not understanding you.

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Post by oneeyeddick » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:04 am

zorro sings wrote: the"Lawyers for Burners"web site was a joke.
did you fill out the form ?

I have heard about a few that did, and they got a response within a few days.

Ya' gotta play to win !!
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.

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Post by zorro sings » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:19 am

Dick,read my post.I sent in the form including copy of my citation.Nothing.The only reason I was able to get in touch with the lawyer at BMORG was that a friend of mine gave him a ride to Reno Airport and mentioned my case.

To Spec,Got to believe that the person who got in touch with me,Ray,is involved in the organization and according to my friend is a lawyer himself for BMORG.
Be careful. You can spend all your money in there..............................Oriental Visitor

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oneeyeddick
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Post by oneeyeddick » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:43 am

zorro sings wrote:.As we were packing things up Saturday afternoon someone in our camp offered an undercover plant a drink out of our cooler which was sitting on the floor.Result was a $1,150 fine which I as,camp"owner",will end up paying.
that sounds like dirty pool.

You don't have a bar in your camp, therefore the person that gave the drink should get the fine.

Who had to sign the ticket ?
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.

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Post by Magpie Sparkles » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:47 am

I'm British so I'm not 100% clear on the American law regarding serving alcohol to minors whether it's for money or for free but I was part of a largish bar camp and someone in my camp (UNnatural History Museum in the 3 o'clock Plaza) was issued a citation for serving a minor - they had sent in a pretty scantily clad 20 year old girl... she wasn't asked for her ID and bam - $1500 fine.

I spoke to a few other bars during the course of the week and had heard of about 5 or 6 other incidences where this had happened - it seemed like they were systematically sending in plants to bars to test out if they were asking for ID or not.

We also had a very obvious undercover police officer in our camp on Sunday morning, having been partying since Saturday night in the bar. He was dressed like a burner (furry hat, goggles etc..) but the tell tale signs were that he was alone, was clean shaven, 100% sober and had a load of official looking wrist bands on.

He approached me and asked me if I knew of anyone who had any spare pills for sale. Not fully having clocked the situation I answered "I don't know anyone who's got any pills let alone any spare ones" this was actually true (much to the pity). He then went on to give some sob story about having lost his friends and his camp so I pretty much shook him off because I was having fun with my friends and he was kind of annoying, latching on.

He stayed in the camp alone just watching what was going on for about an hour and a half. Everyone was aware of his presence so nothing untoward was going on. He finally got up to leave and my boyfriend went to say goodbye to him and thanks for coming to our party and hugged him whilst simultaneously covertly slapping a London parking ticket on his back. One of the funniest moments of Burning Man for me!

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zorro sings
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Post by zorro sings » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:50 am

Dick,You are right in that the citation was a bogus one and as many have pointed out a money grab by Pershing County.All I know is that as I was doing chores in back of the camp an officer of said county came back asked me if this was"my camp".When I answered yes he said,and I quote,'We have just run a sting and you have been stung".I signed the ticket as ultimately the camp IS my responsibility.
Be careful. You can spend all your money in there..............................Oriental Visitor

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Elderberry
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Post by Elderberry » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:56 am

spectabillis wrote:which two were next to each other, and what camp was issued two citations?
Quiote's Cabaret (2) and Celestial Bodies

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Post by Magpie Sparkles » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:57 am

that really sucks for you. I think we are all going to split the cost of the ticket between the whole camp.

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Post by Elderberry » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:59 am

ygmir wrote:yeah, I'm wondering something else:

is there a difference between serving for "money" and, just having a party, no charge at the bar?..........
seems BM, with no "charge", would fit into a party catagory........and, are you required, at your home, to ask for I.D.?.........I thought the legal drinking age related to purchase. Is it not legal for a 16 year old to sip wine with dinner in their home?......

Just wondering about the minutia and "details"..............seems there'd be a loophole there somewhere......
It is illegal to provide alcohol to your own kids in your own home if they are under-age.

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spectabillis
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Post by spectabillis » Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:05 am

zorro sings wrote: To Spec,Got to believe that the person who got in touch with me,Ray,is involved in the organization and according to my friend is a lawyer himself for BMORG.
ok. i didnt understand what form you were talking about or who's form it was, or who referred you to the attorney.

i agree thats screwed up. every camp i'm part of is totally open for people to hang out with us. hard to think we wouldnt offer something cold from the cooler in the middle of a desert on a scorching hot day, and thats not a bar thing, thats just being normal at bman.

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Post by spectabillis » Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:14 am

jkisha wrote:Quiote's Cabaret (2) and Celestial Bodies
i'm not catching it when people mention the camps, but that sucks for quixote, always been an awsome group.

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Post by CapSmashy » Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:53 am

jkisha wrote:It is illegal to provide alcohol to your own kids in your own home if they are under-age.

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Post by Dr Jet Sinister » Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:09 am

jkisha wrote:
It is illegal to provide alcohol to your own kids in your own home if they are under-age.

JK
That is dependent on the state in which you live. Here is the Nevada Revised Statute regarding alcohol and minors.

NRS 202.055 Sale or furnishing of alcoholic beverage to minor; aiding minor to purchase or procure alcoholic beverage; policy to prevent minor from obtaining alcoholic beverage through use of Internet.

1. Every person who knowingly:

(a) Sells, gives or otherwise furnishes an alcoholic beverage to any person under 21 years of age;

(b) Leaves or deposits any alcoholic beverage in any place with the intent that it will be procured by any person under 21 years of age; or

(c) Furnishes, gives, or causes to be given any money or thing of value to any person under 21 years of age with the knowledge that the money or thing of value is to be used by the person under 21 years of age to purchase or procure any alcoholic beverage, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

<b>2. Paragraph (a) of subsection 1 does not apply to a parent, guardian or physician of the person under 21 years of age.</b>

3. Every person who sells, gives or otherwise furnishes alcoholic beverages through the use of the Internet shall adopt a policy to prevent a person under 21 years of age from obtaining an alcoholic beverage from the person through the use of the Internet. The policy must include, without limitation, a method for ensuring that the person who delivers the alcoholic beverages obtains the signature of a person who is over the age of 21 years when delivering the beverages and that the packaging or wrapping of the alcoholic beverages when they are shipped is clearly marked with words that describe the alcoholic beverages. A person who fails to adopt a policy pursuant to this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine of not more than $500.

(Added to NRS by 1967, 482; A 1969, 22; 1987, 482; 2001, 2788)

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-202. ... S202Sec055

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oneeyeddick
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Post by oneeyeddick » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:33 am

zorro sings wrote:Dick,You are right in that the citation was a bogus one .I signed the ticket as ultimately the camp IS my responsibility.
No, it is not your responsibilty to take the heat on that, unless the person that gave the drink to the minor was one of your children under the age of 18.
just as it is not your ticket if someone was to be caught smoking weed in your camp.
the person that gave the drink is the one responsible, and they should cough up the dough , AND take the rap on thier record, NOT YOU.
Good luck on your hearing date... if it comes to that... as well as good luck with whoever you end up with as your lawyer.
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.

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Post by SageV » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:54 am

oneeyeddick wrote:
zorro sings wrote:.As we were packing things up Saturday afternoon someone in our camp offered an undercover plant a drink out of our cooler which was sitting on the floor.Result was a $1,150 fine which I as,camp"owner",will end up paying.
that sounds like dirty pool.

You don't have a bar in your camp, therefore the person that gave the drink should get the fine.

Who had to sign the ticket ?
Following is not legal advice, I am not an attorney nor do I engage in the practice of law, seek a qualified professional:

The individual should have been cited for "contributing to the delinquincy of a minor" and not the other charge. Whoever cited you is going for the revenue maximizing charge and forcing you to go through the time and effort of pleading it down, and counting on the fact you won't.

Call the DA in the prosecuting county and explain that you were not a bar camp and get the guy who gave him the beer to stand up for the charge. They'll probably let you plead it down to something lower if someone will stand up for it. Make it clear otherwise you're going to court and that you can prove you aren't culpable. It's as straightforward as it seems, the wrong person got cited because the officer was confused.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
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Post by SageV » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:15 pm

Magpie Sparkles wrote: I spoke to a few other bars during the course of the week and had heard of about 5 or 6 other incidences where this had happened - it seemed like they were systematically sending in plants to bars to test out if they were asking for ID or not.
I'm sorry to hear that. One thing I found was useful with dealing with the LEO's and the public in the bar camps we've run is to always have had a prominent sign to the effect "We welcome people of all ages to BRC, but if you are under 21, please don't ask to be served at our bar." The LEO's have made it very clear they were happy to see it, and its quicker to point at the sign to turn people away than it is to yell over the music. I'd reccommend it. Don't know if it would help with the sweep it sounds like the LEO's were doing this year.
Magpie Sparkles wrote: We also had a very obvious undercover police officer in our camp on Sunday morning, having been partying since Saturday night in the bar. He was dressed like a burner (furry hat, goggles etc..) but the tell tale signs were that he was alone, was clean shaven, 100% sober and had a load of official looking wrist bands on.
We think we got one of those two years ago, he even camped next to us, claimed he was "Dan from Canada" and he wanted to camp near our theme camp because of our 'cool vibe.' We called him "Dustless Dan" because when he infrequently appeared he never seemed to have a mote of playa dust on him. A few days later some of us had our stuff tossed, nothing taken just rifled through, and Dustless Dan was gone.

Another thing that makes you go, hmmmm.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
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zorro sings
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Post by zorro sings » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:16 pm

Sage Venkman wrote:
oneeyeddick wrote:
zorro sings wrote:.


camp and get the guy who gave him the beer to stand up for the charge. ........... the wrong person got cited because the officer was confused.
In fact no one gave anyone anything.They got it out of the cooler themselves.As far as getting someone to show up in court that will be tricky as they are either in the UK or Brazil.

The officer was a bit confused as our citation not only has the wrong address but the wrong camp name.Another attorney who I spoke to informally said this was probanly not important as they can always"amend"the citation.

We appreciate the advise and support but at this time we are just going to pay the damn thing and put this distasteful incident in the past.It has however made it somewhat likely that our camp has set up for the last time at The Project.
Be careful. You can spend all your money in there..............................Oriental Visitor

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