I want to hear more about THIS!

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:47 pm

gyre wrote:It is all simple and fairly subtle, but I think this forum is too public.

thats unfortunate, because i would have liked reading it. i am a proponent on self representing minor cases, and why i think plea bargains can sometimes be a better alternative. i know a few on narcotic possessions that plea'd to a lesser charge, and made the difference in $ or community service - resulting in a clean record.

driving violations are an interesting example, over 90% of cases are reduced, and its not a coincidence the reductions grow in scale to the willingness to pay.

god bless american captalism, equal justice to those who can afford it.

POWERCHAIR · Post by **POWERCHAIR** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:49 pm

Risky wrote:
gyre wrote:I'll pass on some advice a lawyer gave me about court presentation.
I want to know! Please post that here.

Tell it to the judge .

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:54 pm

oh dear god, is there going to ever be a single discussion here without relentlessly dragging in peoples personality issues?

princesspisces · Post by **princesspisces** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:29 pm

And I suppose you like your peanut butter and jelly sandwiches with the crusts cut off too?

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:32 pm

yes plz, i love the crusts

zorro sings · Post by **zorro sings** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:34 pm

Well good news.My case has been dismissed!!!It could be "resurrected"if the DA catches any heat but for now a few phone calls especially from Lawyer Dan(If anyone needs his contact let me know) and a fax turned the trick.Again we want to thank everyone here who sent their encouragement,good will,and advice.Without you this would not have happened.

kiuney · Post by **kiuney** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:38 pm

[quote="zorro sings"]Well good news.My case has been dismissed!!!It could be "resurrected"if the DA catches any heat but for now a few phone calls especially from Lawyer Dan(If anyone needs his contact let me know) and a fax turned the trick.Again we want to thank everyone here who sent their encouragement,good will,and advice.Without you this would not have happened.[/quote]

Awesome and congrats! No money given to Lovelock then? (Although I imagine you have to pay the lawyer.)

Been following this thread with great interest as we too have a bar and that is one of our major contributions to the community.

Thanks for fighting this! :)

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:42 pm

Great news.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:47 pm

very happy to hear it.

on behalf of ereryone else in similar situations - thank you. hopefully they read that and realize there is hope. there's good chance leo's issuing citations inst on the level, or thier means to a different end in sending a message to the public is the wrong course of action.

dont let intimidation or inconviance get the better of you, thats what they hope for.

zorro sings · Post by **zorro sings** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:00 pm

kiuney wrote:
zorro sings wrote: No money given to Lovelock then? (Although I imagine you have to pay the lawyer.)

! :

No money for anyone.After I went through the hoops he gave the DA a call on my behalf,gratis.I will be buying him a dinner though!

Risky · Post by **Risky** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:18 pm

ok, busy Deb finally got back to me on the Beacon article I had originally mentioned.

Natural Selection Edition Thursday www.BlackRockBeacon.org 5:30 Evolution (near Center Camp) Volume V, Number IV. September 3, 2009

Copsâ€™ Tactics Questioned
By Annie McGee

Sheriffâ€™s deputies issued a citation to Burner Beowulf McGiver of the Absinthe Camp for allegedly furnishing alcohol to a minor during a party at the Absinthe bar , located at the 7:30 Plaza, on Tuesday evening.
McGiver, who lives in Maryland, was cited for $1000.
In an interview, McGiver said he did not remember serving anyone who looked underage. The charge was thought to have been based on the use of an underage decoy who allegedly received a drink at 8:33 pm.
Last year, law enforcement agencies issued more than 100 arrests and citations for everything from drug possession to a sex crime.
While Burning Man has worked hard to maintain a coopeartive relationship with the three main law enforcement agencies that patrol the event, the use of a decoy at Absinthe has sparked discussion around whether authorities are entrapping otherwise law-abiding Burners into violating Nevada law. Burning Man has not traditionally had a problem with under-age drinking, in part because the event is difficult for minors to attend.
Absinthe is fundraising to pay McGiverâ€™s citation. â€œIt could have been any one of us at the bar,â€

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:43 pm

It is always possible that the police are reluctant to parade their decoys (including identities) and tactics before the public.

In discovery, remember to ask if they sent a minor into your campground due to reports of minors getting alcohol there.
Or just fishing.

And if they don't make you aware at the time of what you did, so you can respond about it properly, it is my opinion that it is an attempt to obstruct due process.

If anyone goes to discovery, you might consider asking if any minors at all had alcohol on the playa before they sent them in.

oneeyeddick · Post by **oneeyeddick** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:58 pm

Congrats, Omar...glad it ended like it did.

YOU STUCK IT TO THE MAN !!!

woot !!

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:22 pm

Risky wrote:... Last year, law enforcement agencies issued more than 100 arrests and citations for everything from drug possession to a sex crime...

thats a lot, had no idea the numbers grew that much. arrests used to be really-fucking-rare and considering the history, wasnt needed.

so what the fuck have you people done to burningman!?

princesspisces · Post by **princesspisces** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:42 pm

It's because Burning Man has become so mainstream. It is mentioned on tv, last week I heard about it on an episode of House. Maybe I am just silly, but in a down economy it would seem citations would be a great way to bring in money. In the past month I have seen a visible increase in the number of Highway Patrol officers. (Where I live.)

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:10 am

although i'm not the first person to make the initial observation, it was mentioned by an org senior staff when i started thinking about it. the org started going public in a very big way to ensure local support that offset any disturbances to the surrounding population. this included doing business with them, and on this point - that included the three law enforcement groups who had a lot of money thrown their way. their growing presence always had a chlling effect, but thats partially intentional to what law enforcement does by nature to 'keep the peace.'

but as a percentage its always been off, or at least disproportionate to the danger of things like theft and assault. everything else was overlooked because it was harmless - people were incredibly respectful of each other, and personal experimentation became socially emergent and reinforced in the atmosphere. so i guess its along two points: a population growth and turnover resulting in dissolved standards, and law enforcement that is now dependant on that effect for thier 'business.'

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:35 am

Beowulf McGiver? How can you cite Beowulf McGiver?

And don't tell me they did it under his real name, because that's just reality being lame again.

Greenltdistrict · Post by **Greenltdistrict** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:32 pm

Congrats on the good fortune Zorro! Thanks for the heads up!

303jewels · Post by **303jewels** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

This thread has freaked me out!

First up though I'm glad that Zorro Sings has got off the hook with your case being dismissed. Cool.

I got involved as a barman/bartender on a few occasions, I got asked to help by camps that were 'local'. I think perhaps they thought it somewhat novel to have an English guy serving their drinks, I'm quite sure they were'nt trying to get me fucked over or anything!

Looking back though and realising the age drinking laws in Nevada due to the info in this thread is what has freaked me out.

Some of the drink serving sessions were pretty intense - I was easily dishing out 30 full shot glasses a minute! For almost an hour!!!!! Fuck knows who I served . Frightens me now!!!!! At one point we ran out of mixers and *** **** poured alitre of vodka over me which got licked off pretty quick by females over the age of 21 !!!???

It was a blast, and good clean fun in my book BUT I wont be doing that again - having read this post!!!!!!!!

carefactornil · Post by **carefactornil** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:33 pm

Just thought I'd add my English two pence worth, as it was my first burn.

Overall this is a great thread and congrats to Zorro because it's easy to see why something like this incident would really knock your confidence about organizing events/tents and it's great to see that you didn't let it wear you down. I was at the Daft Punk night and your tent was one of my very best memories of our first burn!

Oh, and Maggie, if you read this, we loved the Museum too, have several pictures of that on my Flickr page (I know Cyrus from the UK). Sad to hear you got stung too and equally glad to know you're plotting a second visit.

Good work everyone and it's nice to see a happy ending on here! When I go back, it won't stop me having a bar and forewarned is fore-armed! Cheers all.

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:20 am

Just did some research on law enforcement numbers over the years at Burning Man. Spectabilis' post encouraged me to look for facts to determine if law enforcement had changed significantly over the years.

Based on BLM LEO and Pershing County Sheriff online reports, I've prepared a chart which was useless to display on eplaya but can be viewed here:

http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0ARqZN ... amQ0&hl=en

There was not an online report for 2005 or 2009 (yet), that I could find. I believe the reason for a lack of a report in 2005 is that BLM was preparing the 5 year license during that time and having several public meetings. In addition that was the year they changed their entire web content practices so it may just be a slip up.

I've sent an email to the office to get the missing 2005 report. I suspect that 2009 is about to be published so I'll wait til later to ask for that one.

If you have any questions about the information, please feel free to ask. I realized when I was finished that I probably should have included the links to the online documents on that chart. However, it's 4AM and I'm not doing it now. Maybe tomorrow, if someone reminds me.

I was exceptionally surprised by the number of gate crashers so I pulled that information out of the total for each year for your viewing pleasure. This also makes it fairly easy to see that the rest of the BLM citations are probably drug offences as none of the Pershing ones are. The citations by Pershing tend to be for having sex in a public location with a couple exceptions.

As for the arrests, they are all over the map for various charges and would have to be individually identified (too much information for this chart).

Enjoy.

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:26 am

Congratulations are in order for everyone in encouraging Zorro Sings to challenge the charge on behalf of all of us and to Zorro Sings for pursuing this even being prepared to sacrifice a day to the cause.

Also I'd like to say that once you've looked at the chart you'll see that things have not changed significantly. The number of arrests is miniscule. The number of citations is well within the range that I would expect for an event like this especially when you pull out the number of gate crashers, for whom I have no sympathy given that we pay for and they could apply for low income tickets if they had their act together.

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:17 am

Interesting to read the stats. Thanks for posting the chart.

JK

Post by **mdmf007** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:29 am

spectabillis wrote:
Risky wrote:... Last year, law enforcement agencies issued more than 100 arrests and citations for everything from drug possession to a sex crime...
thats a lot, had no idea the numbers grew that much. arrests used to be really-fucking-rare and considering the history, wasnt needed.

so what the fuck have you people done to burningman!?

Any city of 50k will have an average arrest rate per week. I wonder how BM's compares to any other college town? A college town being the closest comparison for hte partying factor.

oneeyeddick · Post by **oneeyeddick** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:35 am

nice chart Deb, be sure to update it here when you can, I am curious how the numbers will line up.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:57 am

mdmf007 wrote:
spectabillis wrote:
Risky wrote:... Last year, law enforcement agencies issued more than 100 arrests and citations for everything from drug possession to a sex crime...
thats a lot, had no idea the numbers grew that much. arrests used to be really-fucking-rare and considering the history, wasnt needed.

so what the fuck have you people done to burningman!?
Any city of 50k will have an average arrest rate per week. I wonder how BM's compares to any other college town? A college town being the closest comparison for hte partying factor.

well, college town, 3rd world capitol city........same thing.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:16 am

Deb Prothero wrote:Based on BLM LEO and Pershing County Sheriff online reports, I've prepared a chart which was useless to display on eplaya but can be viewed here:

wow deb, i have to say i am positively impressed (kinda shocked) that you put in that effort with results. do you mind posting where you got the information from? i failed and was too quickly discouraged, unfortunately.

I wonder how BM's compares to any other college town? A college town being the closest comparison for hte partying factor.

relatively speaking is underapreciated, and why these things are are always going to be mired in controversy until some numbers can provide people a solid foundation.

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:27 am

Spectabilis; I can empathize with giving up. The information was all over the place and deeply hidden in some cases. Took me several hours to compile and the hardest part was finding the information in the first place. There is a break in how they manage web content for the BLM in 2005 so its a pain to find stuff after that date which is counter-intuitive, in my opinion.

Anyway, I did go back and update the document with sources. Hope this helps. Some of the documents are massive .pdfs but for those I've indicated the page number to search for.

Oh and BLM runs the Incident Command Post out there so they report on Pershing County numbers too in their final reports. I have found this to be accurate information by checking with Pershing so I've just used BLM final reports.

http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0ARqZN ... amQ0&hl=en

Oh and there is much more information that could be added to a chart. Number of arrests by tribal police during entry and exodus would be interessting. And number of helicopter evacs, etc. There isn't consistent reporting though from year to year so it would be apples to oranges.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:55 am

What do the multiple numbers mean?

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:01 am

Hi Gyre;

If you mean the Citations column, please look at the header:

Citations
Total (BLM) â€“ Gate Crashers

186 (177) - 53

The first number is the total number of citations. The second number in brackets is the number of that total that were made by BLM. The last number is the total number of gate crashers that were part of the BLM number.

186 total citations by BLM and Pershing County Sheriffs department
177 total by BLM
which leaves 9 for Pershing
of the 177 by BLM, 53 were gate crashers
that leaves 124 other ones by BLM and these are usually tickets for possession of drugs

Does that answer your question?