AMBER Alert abuse

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby onzilla » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:45 pm

"There is no choice, no weighing the costs and benefits, there are no exceptions."
"I don't give a rat's canal"

I'm so disappointed in what a bunch of spineless wimps we have at our annual desert festival. I'm sure you guys are used to being stepped all over but to think that some dip shit LEO can just make up whatever rules he sees fit and unlawfully detain thousands of people for hours is OK with you?

how about if it was for 24 hours instead of 3 hours.. is that still OK with you? How about longer? does any form of logic apply here?

or better yet, how about the 4th amendment. Police can question you but 1) you don't have to provide them with any more information that your identification info and 2) they can't detain you without a reasonable suspicion that YOU are involved in a crime. But the 4th amendment doesn't apply on the playa?

I'm fine with *voluntarily* giving up my rights as a citizen to see a kid returned to my parents but this is MY call.. not some BLM bureaucrat.

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Sham » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:39 pm

Moderator hat off!

Black Rock City is a real city. Things happen in cities and I'm all for taking precautions and extra care for lost children. The org has to have a plan (any plan) to deal with a lost child. This year the echo effect for this Amber Alert was a major disaster--based on a concerned parent of a teen and an irresponsible girl who partied all night with her boyfriend.

In other 'real' cities, it would be insane to close all the roads and airports leaving the city because a 17 years old irresponsible dingleberry didn't come home the night before. What would happen if this kid actually didn't wander back to her camp to her scowling and annoyed mommy and daddy. Would EVERYONE be detained and EVERY RV, trailer, car, truck both in line and in the city have to be searched? Really, every larger cooler opened and every hidden spot in the RV's? What if the lost teen already left the city before the panicked parents realized there was an issue? How many days would the police spend holding the entire city and all it's occupants hostage until they allow people to try and rebook flights and get back to the real world? How many hours (days) waiting in line would be acceptable in this situation?

We live in a society of fear and over reaction. I'm sorry that this has crept into BRC and it's given way to an entire city being held hostage. A little common sense would be great in a situation like this. :roll:

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby maladroit » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:51 pm

I think the solution is for everyone to just keep going when Gate closes outbound traffic. It makes more sense to close inbound traffic for weather/population/administrative reasons, but yeah: you don't see cities trappping people inside when someone goes missing.

You could say "it's not a city, it's a festival" so OK. I honestly don't know the answer to this: do they prevent people from leaving Electric Daisy Carnival or Bonnaroo when someone goes missing? I haven't heard of it but if it has happened that would be a precedent.

But let's say Gate doesn't close and this older man and teenager escape the city. They'll be heading to places with a lot more people, a lot more order, more video cameras, TVs and newspapers to show pictures of the missing person, and more law enforcement. Black Rock City has almost none of this and is the PERFECT place to lose someone in the chaos.

To illustrate how useless this policy was, she was not found by anyone. She apparently just openly strolled across the city and up to her front door completely undetected through the city's full complement of Rangers and law enforcement frantically looking for her. None of them saw her.

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby maladroit » Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:23 pm

And before someone says "OMG you can't advocate disobeying GATE" all I'm saying is that if you want to be a community leader, if you want it to be about all of us rather than us versus them, you only get a certain number of batshit-crazy decisions before the community stops listening to you.

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby bradtem » Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:50 pm

some seeing eye wrote:On the playa rangers and BM staff are required to report suspicion of certain events, including a missing minor. The permit spells out who is a mandatory reporter for what reported issues. Once that process starts, things happen that are spelled out in the permit. Like closing the gate.

There is no choice, no weighing the costs and benefits, there are no exceptions.



Could you point to the section of the permit that covers this? I can't even find instances of words like child, missing, abducted, amber etc. in the permits on the web site at http://burningman.org/network/about-us/ ... documents/
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby some seeing eye » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:19 pm

I'm sure the Burning Man organization can point you in the right direction. If you do not believe they should do what they do for lost minors, take it up with them.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby bradtem » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:39 pm

Ah, well you spoke of it with such certainty that I presumed you had read it in the permit and thus would know where the text was. Are you sure but have forgotten where? Or it in one of the operation plans? The permit does talk about minors, but only with respect to having a way to keep them away from the adult situations, for example. You were very specific about language on mandatory reporters etc.

As for my view of the situation, yes, I agree with those that say it is ludicrous to close down a city's exits when a 17 year old is late getting home, and her mother explicitly doesn't want such a shutdown, and there is zero evidence of a kidnapping (in fact, evidence to the contrary.) I think if you proposed shutdown of exits from any city of 70,000 even for a confirmed kidnapping, with kidnapper and victim known to be in the city, and only one exit from the city, in the default world you would get serious pushback -- as they have here for far less.

But before I "take it up with them" I would like to know they really have the rule that you cite.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby some seeing eye » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:12 pm

I have read earlier permits and am familiar with law. So if you believe the exit gate amber alert close was illegal, contact BM legal. They are smart, knowledgeable and responsive. You can report back here with your results.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Dr. Pyro » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:27 am

I know this will not be an appealing answer to many, but since the tickets sell out in something like 44 minutes there is an overwhelming demand, so therefore if they said "No one under 18 admitted" the tickets would still sell out in under an hour. Problem solves itself.

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby sparr » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:33 am

some seeing eye wrote:In every state there are mandatory reporting laws for specific suspected crimes or situations. For example, if a mandatory reporter hears of suspected child abuse, rape, there is a list, they are required to immediately report it up through the justice system. In my state mandatory reporters include teachers, social workers, health care workers, law enforcement, etc.

On the playa rangers and BM staff are required to report suspicion of certain events, including a missing minor. The permit spells out who is a mandatory reporter for what reported issues. Once that process starts, things happen that are spelled out in the permit. Like closing the gate.

There is no choice, no weighing the costs and benefits, there are no exceptions.

If you have to exit on a dependable schedule, prebook a flight out of the airport. It is not that expensive. Of course you need some good friends to haul out your gear.

(On social media we can talk shit. If you want to change the Burning Man Amber Alert system, you need to convince the BLM to take it out of the permit. Where was our dead horse thread?)


Can we get a citation from the permit on this subject, please? As mentioned in the first post in this thread from 2012, the *actual* nationwide AMBER Alert system requires evidence of an abduction, not just a missing child. What BRC and the BLM are doing are not part of the real AMBER Alert system, and they need to stop calling it that, because it does make people respect the real system less.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Ratty » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:10 am

I didn't leave till Tuesday so I wasn't caught in the traffic jam. My playa neighborhood is made up of DPW guys that repair the golf carts. They also work Gate and Exodus in order to get more benefits. The 'morning after' they told me this story.

Gate closed due to amber alert.

Unruly crowd forms at the front of the closure. Approximately 20 Gate personnel at the front of the lines. (They were outnumbered 5 to 1 and feared the vehicles would just start driving over them.) People were threatening lawsuits.

The leo's showed up including the head man. (They said approximately 50 cops.)

The man in charge asked the gate people if he could start moving the cars. The Gate said, "Hey, you got the guns."

Within 3 minutes they were funneling the vehicles into 3 lanes. Single vehicles, motorhomes and vehicles towing something.

Each lane had an appropriate number of officers to search and release them to exit the event.

I think he said it lasted till 11:20. Two hours and 20 minutes. I'm a little hazy on that point.

They were there. They were impressed by the Leo's organization and courtesy. The officers that weren't searching were walking the line of cars to talk to people and calm them down. (Guns help.)

That's all I have to say about this.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby some seeing eye » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:27 pm

The lost minor protocol is an appendix to the Operating Plan. So yes, it is part of the permit.

The Operating Plan is a FOIA item.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby 1durphul » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:02 am

unjonharley wrote:I do not give a rats anal canal about the wait.. The alert is for a lost person ... If you do not have brain enough to sleep instead of driving go fuck yourself and stay home and off the road..


I wasn't in this year's Amber Alert, but I got caught in one on the exit road a couple years ago. Just about every time it seems to have been a 17 year old. Since you think these minors who will legally be adults in a matter of months are worth taking away the rights of thousands of people while a search is conducted for them, may I ask to what limit? Hours? Days? Weeks? Months? Years? Decades? What if they never find the kid? What if the kid took off on foot out of the desert and hitch hiked home from Gerlach? Should all the thousands of people in cars be left to die on exodus road to find that kid?

(I have no horses in this race, so really I'm just posting this question to you unjon out of curiosity about how far you'd be willing to take your strongly held opinion on this. My intention with this post is the utmost of civility and deference to your opinion, I am not trolling. I'm posting unreasonable scenarios because I'm curious what you think the line for unreasonable is. Clearly for you it isn't hours. So what about days? Weeks? Months? Years? When does it become unreasonable in your mind?)

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby ygmir » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:39 am

thing is, IMHO, it's a pain, unless that was your child missing.
We can discuss the merits of this being an "18 and over" event, sure.
We can discuss the age of majority, too.

But, the law is that under 18 is a minor. And, if a minor is missing, and possibly in danger, we find them. It's not just the law, it humane.
Sorry the city was shut down. Sorry it has usually turned out to be a vacuum headed teen move that caused it.
Not sorry, if one time it saves a child from injury or death.

So yeah, lobby to change what is, but understand the overall focus: keeping a kid safe, rescuing said kid.
I'd say it sends a certain level of message, to would be abductors, in that the city is shut down. period, until the child is found.
We patrol the perimeter, and have other means of detecting anyone leaving the fenced area. It's a pretty tight closure, once in place.
As a parent (I'd not bring my minor child), I appreciate that people will help if a kid is missing.

*full disclosure: I favor the event 18 and over*
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Dr Helix » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:38 am

ygmir wrote:thing is, IMHO, it's a pain, unless that was your child missing.
We can discuss the merits of this being an "18 and over" event, sure.
We can discuss the age of majority, too.

But, the law is that under 18 is a minor. And, if a minor is missing, and possibly in danger, we find them. It's not just the law, it humane.
Sorry the city was shut down. Sorry it has usually turned out to be a vacuum headed teen move that caused it.
Not sorry, if one time it saves a child from injury or death.

So yeah, lobby to change what is, but understand the overall focus: keeping a kid safe, rescuing said kid.
I'd say it sends a certain level of message, to would be abductors, in that the city is shut down. period, until the child is found.
We patrol the perimeter, and have other means of detecting anyone leaving the fenced area. It's a pretty tight closure, once in place.
As a parent (I'd not bring my minor child), I appreciate that people will help if a kid is missing.

*full disclosure: I favor the event 18 and over*


The line I like best here is this: "I'd say it sends a certain level of message, to would be abductors, in that the city is shut down. period, until the child is found."

THAT, is the reason you do it. You make it hard, predators are less likely to try.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby 1durphul » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:13 am

Dr Helix wrote:
THAT, is the reason you do it. You make it hard, predators are less likely to try.


But... no child has ever been abducted from burning man (that I'm aware of, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.) So, to whom would we feel the need to send this message?

I mean, if we're going to send messages through large scale intrusive and likely unconstitutional actions, what other messages can we send to non-existent threats, and how intrusive should those message sending actions be? Should we limit it at detaining thousands of people without cause for hours? What about searching every person detained before allowing them to continue on their way? [<-- this is the line we reached during the amber alert, everything after is a further step we could take to send messages but have not yet] Maybe the police could confiscate the vehicles of some random people? Maybe arrest a few random people as well and holding them for the permitted 48 hours without charges? How about torturing some randoms? Executing a random person in line? Executing every 10th person in line? Executing every person in line?

So, like I said, I'm posting obviously ridiculous escalations here, but somewhere there's a line, and I'm curious what it is for you, and what you think there is to stop the police from saying "no, the next thing on the list is the line" if we are suspending the constitutional rights of thousands of people based on imagined dangers. For me, that line is well before detaining thousands of people without cause. For me, the furthest this should have gone, was having officers standing at the exit road looking into each vehicles windows as they passed, and pulling over ones that appeared to have minors matching the description over to the side for questioning.

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby jamestkirk » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:22 am

The situation created some interesting aerial photography....Kirk Out

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby vargaso » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:05 pm

I'm a parent of 3 who thinks allowing kids at Burning Man is a crucial part of keeping the event something more than just a huge party in the desert, but I'm not in favor of shutting the city down in the case of a missing kid. Child abduction by a stranger, while it does occur, is exceedingly rare in the default world and has yet to happen even once at Burning Man. It's not local, state or federal law that BRC must shut down if a minor goes missing, it's a decision made by the BMORG. If we're thinking of BRC as a city, then we should respond to a missing child the way a city would, which is to alert the authorities (rangers and law enforcement) and send out an alert on BMIR and official social media accounts.

Overcompensating for exceedingly rare occurrences is bad policy in and out of BRC. Shutting down the city is pure security theater that has never aided in finding the missing kid in the two times it's been used.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby maladroit » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:09 pm

"I'd say it sends a certain level of message, to would be abductors, in that the city is shut down. period, until the child is found."


If a child abductor is concerned about the ease of abduction and getaway, there are much better places than the middle of a heavily patrolled fenced city with only one way in or out, a hundred miles from civilization, where there are extremely few children anyway.

Now if you come back with "Oh the child abductor is not going to be thinking that logically" then fuck off with the "sending a message" concept, because in THAT case the message is not going to be received either.

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby ygmir » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:01 pm

maladroit wrote:
"I'd say it sends a certain level of message, to would be abductors, in that the city is shut down. period, until the child is found."


If a child abductor is concerned about the ease of abduction and getaway, there are much better places than the middle of a heavily patrolled fenced city with only one way in or out, a hundred miles from civilization, where there are extremely few children anyway.

Now if you come back with "Oh the child abductor is not going to be thinking that logically" then fuck off with the "sending a message" concept, because in THAT case the message is not going to be received either.

to copy your logical extensions:

..........If a child abductor is concerned about the ease of abduction and getaway, there are much better places than the middle of a heavily patrolled fenced city with only one way in or out, a hundred miles from civilization, where there are extremely few children anyway.;;;;;;;;;

true, but there are "much better places" to attack people, than a military base. And yet, that has happened. The examples of "much better places" are infinite.

so yeah, call out the obvious, and use statistics. The shut down, works on many levels. Yup, in inconveniences lots of people, for up to hours......but does not suspend their "rights", in that they are not being "held' but are being "delayed", and can fall under the "greater good" thought process.

I will concede, it could be changed to a "reverse ingress at gate" scenario, where every vehicle is searched on the way out, as they are on the way in, so as to keep some movement. It in fact, may not really slow things much, in that the backup when exodus is crowded, is time consuming anyway.

but, yeah, fuck you if you don't care about a child being lost or possibly in trouble. (I say this, again, stating I feel the event should be 18 and over, which would end this whole discussion, IMO)
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby maladroit » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:11 pm

Everyone who says "they don't roadblock Sacramento when a child goes missing, what's a better solution here" of course does not care about missing children at all. Making that point really strengthens the credibility of all the other associated arguments.

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby bradtem » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:14 pm

It's not appropriate to say those who don't agree with city shutdown care nothing for the welfare of the children. They are simply asking why Black Rock City would have a vastly greater response to such issues compared to other cities of similar size. (It's actually an even harder comparison because regular cities are not in the process of being completely drained over a couple of days when it's not already an emergency.)

If this is the right policy during BRC exodus, why is it not the right policy for another medium sized town? Indeed, it is not the policy for other towns even in the event of an actual confirmed abduction, let alone the more simple example of a child late for her curfew.

The idea that you would put Mountain View on lockdown because a 17 year old was not home when her mother told her to be home would be viewed as beyond ludicrous in that city. Why is it not just non-ludicrous, but even defended, in BRC?
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby maladroit » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:23 pm

I brought that point even closer to relevance by asking if any major festival such as Bonnaroo or EDC has ever locked down and prevented people from leaving in response to a missing persons report.

Let's keep in mind that BMORG was happy to just lock down Gate. It was the police rolling up a bit later that suggested moving people out after a cursory glance into the vehicles passing through. In this bizarro world the police knew better than BMORG what made sense on the playa.

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby jamestkirk » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:03 pm

Facinating

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Wrath » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:52 pm

You'd never see this happen in another city like Mountain View or Sacramento!

When the Sacramento Bee starts writing about the benifits of recreational drug use, then you can compare it to Black Rock City.

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby vargaso » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:45 pm

ygmir wrote:
maladroit wrote:
"I'd say it sends a certain level of message, to would be abductors, in that the city is shut down. period, until the child is found."


If a child abductor is concerned about the ease of abduction and getaway, there are much better places than the middle of a heavily patrolled fenced city with only one way in or out, a hundred miles from civilization, where there are extremely few children anyway.

Now if you come back with "Oh the child abductor is not going to be thinking that logically" then fuck off with the "sending a message" concept, because in THAT case the message is not going to be received either.

to copy your logical extensions:

..........If a child abductor is concerned about the ease of abduction and getaway, there are much better places than the middle of a heavily patrolled fenced city with only one way in or out, a hundred miles from civilization, where there are extremely few children anyway.;;;;;;;;;

true, but there are "much better places" to attack people, than a military base. And yet, that has happened. The examples of "much better places" are infinite.

so yeah, call out the obvious, and use statistics. The shut down, works on many levels. Yup, in inconveniences lots of people, for up to hours......but does not suspend their "rights", in that they are not being "held' but are being "delayed", and can fall under the "greater good" thought process.

I will concede, it could be changed to a "reverse ingress at gate" scenario, where every vehicle is searched on the way out, as they are on the way in, so as to keep some movement. It in fact, may not really slow things much, in that the backup when exodus is crowded, is time consuming anyway.

but, yeah, fuck you if you don't care about a child being lost or possibly in trouble. (I say this, again, stating I feel the event should be 18 and over, which would end this whole discussion, IMO)


"The shut down, works on many levels."

Does it? How? It was not a factor in finding the teenagers the two times it's been used. They didn't search cars waiting to leave. It's pure theater. Ah but I'm forgetting, I couldn't possibly care about a child being lost or in trouble because I don't want to shut down the city. Right.

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby vargaso » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:46 pm

Wrath wrote:
You'd never see this happen in another city like Mountain View or Sacramento!

When the Sacramento Bee starts writing about the benifits of recreational drug use, then you can compare it to Black Rock City.


Not sure about the Bee, but the Sacramento News & Review pretty much depends on recreational drug use for their advertising dollars. Does that count?

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby maladroit » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:57 pm

I'm curious about what the discussion of recreational drug use in a newspaper has to do with anything else that was being discussed here. Spell it out for us.

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Wrath » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:07 pm

BRC Weekly wrote:2C-B/C/E/I
There are a pile of drugs in the "2C" family, and they all pretty much kick ass.

If this is the level of journalism you're speaking of, I just might have to move back to the Central Valley!

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Wrath » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:20 pm

maladroit wrote:I'm curious about what the discussion of recreational drug use in a newspaper has to do with anything else that was being discussed here. Spell it out for us.

I'll do my best.

bradtem wrote:The idea that you would put Mountain View on lockdown

maladroit wrote:Everyone who says "they don't roadblock Sacramento when a child goes missing, what's a better solution here"

It seemed like comparisons were being made between how "normal" cities & Black Rock City deal with such an emergency. What I was trying to point out by mentioning differences in newspaper content is that Black Rock City isn't your adverage cow town &, as such, might deal with the above mentioned emergencies differently.


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