Stay away from the panty boutique!

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Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby vintagebasilisk » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:53 pm

After reading the thread about sexual assaults on playa, I need to share my own, slightly less gutwrenching experience of harassment. I just sent this PM to some members from Anat's Love Camp, where the incident occured. If you are looking for this kind of attention, goody for you, but I was not and have felt that I needed to warn those who are likeminded that this is not a camp where consent is considered necessary. This is not something I want to be ok in my BRC community.

"Hi,

I saw that you two were associated with Anat's Love Camp. You need to know that I was sexually harassed at the panty boutique. I felt violated by the person handing out panties when he pulled aside the panties I was wearing to see whether I was shaved. I did not give him any indication that I wanted him to remove my clothing for me. He did thank me for not slapping him, so he knew what he did wasn't right. I wish now I had slapped him and reported him to playa info, but I was trying to go on with my day without resorting to violence or ruining anyone else's day. I also did not appreciate his persistent suggestion, repeated several times, that I could model them for him privately in the back of the camp. This was very inappropriate and I'm saddened that this happened in BRC, especially at an established camp such as yours. I'm going to warn people to stay away from the panty boutique and you can respond in the public thread how you intend to keep this from happening again. "
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby maladroit » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:08 pm

Not OK. I could see someone taking that gamble under certain circumstances, maybe a misunderstood phrase, but the following repeated suggestions take it straight into douchepredator territory.

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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby lothos 1162 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:51 pm

As a Black Rock Ranger and ESD member, I can tell you that a another lady approached me and my partner to report a similar problem,that problem was handled quickly.Please report anything that you might offense. Lothos

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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby pink » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:52 pm

I heard about this guy from someone that came into Retrofrolic. Apparently he is a predator and this was not an isolated incident, and not the first year he's done this kind of crap. Hopefully you rangers escorted him off the playa.
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:35 pm

Yes, it sound pretty icky. Well, more than icky.
These people get thrown off playa when people let the llc and the leos know. I understand it's hard to say something, but that's where the power is...
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby Bob » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:07 am

The theme camp department goes to some effort to identify "sex" camps and notify them of safe practices.

Not so much the rest of us.
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby Roberto Dobbisano » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:40 am

"10 principles? you cant HANDLE the 10 principles..."

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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby vintagebasilisk » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:40 pm

Since I feel validated by the previous responses, that's actually hilarious!

Also, thanks for the responses, folks. I'll send some emails - now that it's public, the hard part's over.
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby pink » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:18 am

Bob wrote:The theme camp department goes to some effort to identify "sex" camps and notify them of safe practices.

Not so much the rest of us.


I'm in a 'sex' camp, and that behavior is definitely NOT ok. Or even close to ok. Consent before touching anything, including toys, is one of the basic rules in our community. Creeps are creeps. I wish you would have slapped him.
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby Bob » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:46 am

pink wrote:
Bob wrote:The theme camp department goes to some effort to identify "sex" camps and notify them of safe practices.

Not so much the rest of us.


I'm in a 'sex' camp, and that behavior is definitely NOT ok. Or even close to ok. Consent before touching anything, including toys, is one of the basic rules in our community. Creeps are creeps. I wish you would have slapped him.


Yes, the theme camp department goes to some effort to warn you sex camps about certain things.

How does the theme camp department warn everybody else?
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby salope » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:21 am

The irony being that the "sex" camps are the ones who are most likely already aware of best practices around communication and consent. Many have their own policies (official or unofficial) in place already.

The Bureau of Erotic Discorse was mentioned in the 2012 rape thread. They are a much needed on-playa volunteer effort/resource trying to educate everyone else. They had signs up in a lot of the porta-potties this year.

Obviously there is work still to be done. And not to be pessimistic, but creeps will be creeps and abusers will be abusers regardless. At some point you run into the limit of what you can accomplish there, and need to focus on community prevention and responses.
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby Roberto Dobbisano » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:40 am

were they serving belvedere vodka?....

Image



that is a real ad BTW....
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby salope » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:52 am

Roberto Dobbisano wrote:that is a real ad BTW....


Which seriously pissed people off. Rightfully so.

Perfect example of the "haha, rape is funny" rape culture bullshit which helps perpetuate attitudes that encourage/enable rapists and panty boutique creeps.
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby Elderberry » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:23 am

The Belvedere people didn't see anything wrong with the ad because,obviously, they knew the difference between legitimate rape and illegitimate rape.

With so many people in our society believing that crap, (including many in high places) is there any doubt about what the problem is?
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby SaritaSyrah » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:47 pm

jkisha wrote:The Belvedere people didn't see anything wrong with the ad because,obviously, they knew the difference between legitimate rape and illegitimate rape.



obviously, its harder to impregnate somebody if you're legitimately raping them. Clearly.
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby Bob » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:24 pm

salope wrote:The irony being that the "sex" camps are the ones who are most likely already aware of best practices around communication and consent. Many have their own policies (official or unofficial) in place already.

The Bureau of Erotic Discorse was mentioned in the 2012 rape thread. They are a much needed on-playa volunteer effort/resource trying to educate everyone else. They had signs up in a lot of the porta-potties this year.

Obviously there is work still to be done. And not to be pessimistic, but creeps will be creeps and abusers will be abusers regardless. At some point you run into the limit of what you can accomplish there, and need to focus on community prevention and responses.


BED seems focused on sex camps and people likely to seek out sex camps, not your average ticket holder who unknowingly wanders into a risky situation. The org itself should be more forthcoming about what actually happens at the event.
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:04 pm

Bob wrote:
salope wrote:The irony being that the "sex" camps are the ones who are most likely already aware of best practices around communication and consent. Many have their own policies (official or unofficial) in place already.

The Bureau of Erotic Discorse was mentioned in the 2012 rape thread. They are a much needed on-playa volunteer effort/resource trying to educate everyone else. They had signs up in a lot of the porta-potties this year.

Obviously there is work still to be done. And not to be pessimistic, but creeps will be creeps and abusers will be abusers regardless. At some point you run into the limit of what you can accomplish there, and need to focus on community prevention and responses.


BED seems focused on sex camps and people likely to seek out sex camps, not your average ticket holder who unknowingly wanders into a risky situation. The org itself should be more forthcoming about what actually happens at the event.

BED focuses on basic boundaries and communication strategies. At times we've talked about self-defense training, but are concerned that that may lead to liability issues. The trainings are absolutely informed by things that sex camps do, but I'd never call the Booby Bar or the Department of Tethered Animation or the Dusty Swan sex camps.
The llc should be more forthcoming, however, although it gets messy quickly.
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby some seeing eye » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:16 pm

I've never met B.E.D. It seems that the ORG throws the entire responsibility to B.E.D. for good communication between the 55,000, participants who never visit red light camps. One mention in the survival guide. The rangers, ESD and LEO are there for the few cases that rise to visibility at the event after damage is done (to individuals and the event itself).

What would happen if the B.E.D. philosophy was as infused, staffed, talked about, and woven into the culture of the event as the no-MOOP/ Leave No Trace philosophy?
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:18 pm

I'd love to see that.

B.E.D. is always looking for volunteers. Maybe you'd like to put in two hours.
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby salope » Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:54 am

Bob wrote:The org itself should be more forthcoming about what actually happens at the event.


This. I can understand that there might be all kinds of reasons the org doesn't want to publicize info about rapes and sexual assaults, but they need to suck it up and do the right thing. More dialogue is needed and that requires more open information. They may be covering their ass, but (whether intentionally or not) they are playing their part in perpetuating a larger culture of silence around rape/assault.

2011 Afterburn report wrote:The breakdown by case type includes 23 psychiatric clients, eight cases related to domestic violence, nine sexual assault cases and five 'Legal 2000' evaluations (to determine if there is a danger to self or to others as a result of a mental illness). Two of the sexual assault cases merited evidence collection exams in Reno and one Legal 2000 warranted transport to a facility in Reno. The Mental Health team coordinates these transports and works closely with law enforcement, the sexual assault response team in Reno, and other agencies to support clients once they leave the playa. Additionally there were two on playa follow-up and five post event follow-ups.


It will be interesting to see if the 2012 Afterburn has anything more than a number, given how much attention this issue seems to be getting on facebook, burners.me, etc. I will be seriously dissapointed if they just play mum. We deserve better, and we/they as a culture should be setting an example for our culture as a whole of trying to do it better.

some seeing eye wrote:What would happen if the B.E.D. philosophy was as infused, staffed, talked about, and woven into the culture of the event as the no-MOOP/ Leave No Trace philosophy?


At some of the bigger Chicago burner parties this has already happened. Events are promoted with "Ask First : Respect Community : Leave No Trace : Dress To Kill". And they are working to get the idea out there at the events, especially around photography where "ask first" is in conflict with standard nightlife photography practices. As a sound byte principle, "ask first" works because it encompases so much behavior, not just sexual behavior, and embeds it in a bit of common sense human decency.
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby Bob » Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:15 am

Most people with whom I associate aren't after erotic-anything at bunringman, and I suspect like me they'd find a guide to avoiding sexual assault at bunringman authored by sex camp addicts as off-putting as a guide to avoiding music at bunringman authored by ravefucks.
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby Drawingablank » Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:29 am

salope wrote:As a sound byte principle, "ask first" works because it encompases so much behavior, not just sexual behavior, and embeds it in a bit of common sense human decency.


Perhaps I am over simplifying, but I think most burners and for that matter most people already know this.

The shortfall with this thinking is - no amount of education is going to make predators stop being predators. Criminals are criminals because they don't obey the rules (laws). Serial rapists are not rapists because no one ever told them it is wrong to rape people to use one example.
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:54 am

Bob wrote:Most people with whom I associate aren't after erotic-anything at bunringman, and I suspect like me they'd find a guide to avoiding sexual assault at bunringman authored by sex camp addicts as off-putting as a guide to avoiding music at bunringman authored by ravefucks.

We'd love more imput and enough volunteers to do a variety of different approaches. With three or four people doing most of the workshops, there gets to be a certain sameness to the experience. (Although, I still say that the "sex camp addict" doesn't really cover any of us.) It's a lucky thing I kind of refuse to toss the same old Ghandi quotes around because the change you want to see might be mentioned about here.
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby Bob » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:12 am

eta:

I preferred the old Yahoo Pamphlet's lack of subtlety about informing the average ticket holder re: the existence of assholes at the event.

Add crime maps of BRC and you might have something useful.

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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby salope » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:41 am

Drawingablank wrote:
salope wrote:As a sound byte principle, "ask first" works because it encompases so much behavior, not just sexual behavior, and embeds it in a bit of common sense human decency.


Perhaps I am over simplifying, but I think most burners and for that matter most people already know this.


I think you are right, it's almost an unofficial principle, and at the very least a "duh" of trying to be decent to people. When we say "burners" we mean people who "get it' in general, and this is one of the things about the culture of BRC that we "get" .

And you are right, we will never get through to the predators. But we can be educating people to look out for others, watch for sketchy beahvior, if you see something say something, don't be part of the bystander effect, etc.

And... just like with all the moop and feathers, and the much-discussed "hordes of unwashed e-tards & newbies", there is a sizable percentage of the population that doesn't get it yet. And you won't get through to all of them, but you can get through to some of them, and this is one of the things about which we need to acculturate people. This is how we do things here. This is how you avoid being a creep: by showing decency to those around you. And it's especially important given the hyper-sexualized surface of the culture - a surface which far from reflecting "anything goes", actually requires more courtesy in how we sexually approach each other.

And even for the creeps who don't care, who won't listen, we can still work to create a culture that is inhospitable to their shit. As it stands now, it seems like there are predators for whom the burn is an above average milleu in which to prey on people. We should be sending a message and creating an environment that is less hospitable.
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby SquirrelHead » Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:57 am

Drawingablank wrote:Perhaps I am over simplifying, but I think most burners and for that matter most people already know this.

The shortfall with this thinking is - no amount of education is going to make predators stop being predators. Criminals are criminals because they don't obey the rules (laws). Serial rapists are not rapists because no one ever told them it is wrong to rape people to use one example.


I think an "ask first" type of campaign isn't a bad idea really. I think it could help to remind people that even though it is Burning Man they need to be aware of what is happening around them. Maybe not everyone is the sweet loving person that you want to believe they are. It may also help to strengthen the resolve to report issue to the Rangers instead of writing it off to something that happens in that kind of environment or not wanting to ruin peoples day.
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby wh..sh » Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:30 am

Bob wrote:Image

This is so wrong! :lol:
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby wh..sh » Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:36 am

theCryptofishist wrote:It's a lucky thing I kind of refuse to toss the same old Ghandi quotes around because the change you want to see might be mentioned about here.

Thread drift -

Technically, isn't that a misquote?
I know people toss this "be the change" around a lot more than I would really like.

Although, he did say -
"If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. ... We need not wait to see what others do."
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:43 am

wh..sh wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:It's a lucky thing I kind of refuse to toss the same old Ghandi quotes around because the change you want to see might be mentioned about here.

Thread drift -

Technically, isn't that a misquote?
I know people toss this "be the change" around a lot more than I would really like.

Although, he did say -
"If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. ... We need not wait to see what others do."

Well, it's a good thing I didn't quote him... I would have been wrong.

I hate being wrong, and it might undermine your trust in me.

I'd forgotten about the pamphlet. Too bad it's not published any more.
*starts wondering if it's worth reprinting for next year*
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Re: Stay away from the panty boutique!

Postby Bob » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:38 pm

Forgot that I'd contributed a true story to the 2002 Yahoo Pamphlet, about a July 4th encounter with one of the org's official photographers.

The erstwhile YP editor, John Mosbaugh, is now blogging for the org and working with the art department. Don't know if there's any overlap with BED, everybody uses fake names nowadays. Rangers have contributed to both, I guess, don't know if LEOs have at all, other than in responding to ESD on refining policies.

Just saying, at first face BED seems more geared to people & camps opting in to whatever degree of sex play, along with trying to help victims in the aftermath of bad experiences. Fine, but I think your average attendee uninterested in sexual situations might need more education about potential risks and the actual history of crimes at the event, and might be put off by the "Communication is the Best Lubrication" slogan and attitude.

Ten years ago my partner and a female friend were cornered in a tight spot around Center Camp by a couple of men sporting your typical grungy army-surplus gear along with ski masks or scarfs or something, and told they were being kidnapped. For what, they wondered, drugging, sexual intimidation, impromptu theater, being made to write bad checks, or wtf? After a few very long, tense minutes my partner was able to negotiate her way out of the situation by making it apparent she was carrying an org radio, but it was still dicey.

Seems to me a log of such incidents might be useful to keep track of from year to year, and communicate some kind of distillation of *that* to attendees rather than simply how to conduct yourself on a couch in a sex camp.

Just rambling here, I don't spend enough time with the event anymore to be in the loop these days.
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