BLM citations

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Cosworth Magellan
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Post by Cosworth Magellan » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:00 am

Any thoguths?
Perhaps they actually register their art cars. That, at least, is the funny answer.

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gyre
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Drug Soliciting Art Cars Are Unacceptable

Post by gyre » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:01 am

This was not a casual request and then a ride offer anyway. It was a clear deal-selling a ride for illegal drugs-commerce and a criminal act in some places. There were other creepy things about the driver.
If there are fake art cars soliciting drugs, how stupid would a real art car driver be to act like the police? It's tacky, at the least, and demanding drugs should get any art car pulled. I have no sympathy for that. Playa justice goes in all directions.

I have filed a request to the DMV that they deal with this. I have offered my willingness to proceed and they are authorized to use my name on any complaint they choose to file. I also notified them of my reaction next year to the rides-for-drugs deal. I don't want to surprize anyone.

I don't use drugs or carry them. I was desperate for a ride. I do consider it an attempt at entrapment. I was never inclined to obtain drugs for that idiot. But that was the intent.

I don't believe real burners act the way this person did.

As for drugs, until someone tries to force me to use something, I don't have an opinion. I have been offered drugs far more often than anyone has asked for anything. I like that some people feel free to use them. I love Amsterdam for the same reasons. It feels like home.

As for the DPW, I have the same respect for them I have for everyone else. I find it hard to imagine one of them doing what this person did. They don't seem stupid to me. And I think I could spot a DPW car in a whiteout at night. None of them seem any less cordial than some of the motorcycle oriented social organizations I know. I do have huge respect for what they do. (Delivering mail, I ended up in DPW camp where they demanded beer and then threw me out. I took this as social banter and went on my rounds.)

As for a police reaction, I expect that they would be displeased with me.
This is why I contacted the DMV and asked them to deal with this.
Also, to react they have to break cover and advertise that I was right.
They would be wiser to pretend outrage and drive off. Or not show up.

Undercover art cars are not acceptable.


Thoreau was in jail when a friend came to see him and reprimanded him for being in jail. "Henry, what are you doing in there?"
Thoreau reprimanded his friend saying,
"What are you doing out there?"


I hope anyone who objects to these cars will contact the Overlords as I have. If you feel you interacted with unethical cops file a complaint.
Don't say no harm done. Without a feeling of some freedom here, I wouldn't cross the street to go to burning man.

I'd love to solve this before summer.
"Everything is more wonderful when you do it with a car, don't you think?"
-girl by the fire, watching a tree moved by car bumper in the bonfire

It would be a shame if I had to resort to self-deception to preserve my faith in objective reality.

Cosworth Magellan
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Post by Cosworth Magellan » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:53 am

Well, I understand your objections, and I suppose I agree with you to some extent, but I don't really see any way to change this. They're certainly well within their legal rights to conduct undercover operations this way (at least in the state of Nevada.)

As for what is and is not "acceptable," that's something which the law enforcement agencies are going to determine for themselves. I'm sure that if they didn't have proper DMV authorization this year, and it were required next year, they'd simply do it. It's not as if DMV will be in a situation to deny them the ability to conduct their operations this way regardless. If you want to complain, I'd suggest complaining to BMOrg proper, rather than DMV, but I've got no idea how much (if any) say they would have in this type of situation.

ubu
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Post by ubu » Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:40 am

what that avatar magellan said, gyre, with some modifications. BRC is its own set of conventions within a larger set of conventions (i.e. existing state and federal laws, and general civil codes of decency).

I can fully support your protest and your displeasure, short of you tagging a vehicle, or doing anything harmful to persons or property. (not a good idea) The negotiations between the borg and the "authorities" are opaque to the rest of us, but I would guess that the borg has plenty of leverage if they want to exercise it. How about a "no non-participants art cars" rule?

There are always leverage points. I agree with you that we should just not be passive and allow ourselves to be excessively policed. How to go about asserting greater freedom and privacy is a question or a task that demands a certain amount of cleverness and research. go for it.

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alt12
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Burning Since: 2004
Location: San Francisco

BM05 undercover busts

Post by alt12 » Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:17 pm

Well, I know the 11 person arrest # is wrong b/c 4 of my friends were arrested by the BLM right in front of me on friday night. We were inside a chillspace dome with about 10 other people hanging out when 2 different undercover operatives in full costume (and young looking) solicit my friends for drugs...to give them or trade drugs. I won't state what occurred b/c I don't want to complicate their cases. But when we left the dome 2 BLM broncos and 2 BLM ATVs with a total of 10-12 BLM officers nab my 4 friends and they ended up going to the BLM station on site and were released with 3 $525 fines and one had a posession/distribution of marijuana charge.

I have no problem with police presence at BM. But I have a big problem with undercover officers in costume soliciting drugs, and basically entraping burners. THis needs to be publicized and people need to know not to give/trade/exchange/offer/sell any drugs with anyone at burningman that they don't know personally outside of burningman b/c even that cute little girl could be a narc.
alx

Blackrock Lover
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being unwelcome in camp and art cars.................

Post by Blackrock Lover » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:22 pm

Hi UBU,

As for being in a camp unannounced or unexpected....I had to cross a couple of camps while looking for a reported rape suspect. I assure you I could not and did not take the time to be pleasant and polite and introduce myself in this situation. Unfortunately you can see by reading some of the threads participants want to shout out police to warn bystanders. That would certainly have defeated my purpose in attempting to locate this suspect that had been reported to have just been in the area. Some of the camp members attempted to intercept me and block my passage and I simply ignored them. I don't intend to be rude and normally would not have acted in such a manner. However, my overiding concern in this situation was the suspect and not how I might be perceived by participants. I love to visit with all the interesting folk I meet at Bman but I think you can see that that was not possible at this time as serious LE work was at hand. I'm not trying to be a big shot or bully but that was simply the situation at hand and I could not take time for niceties. So please don't read too much into one, two, or even three, acts by LE.....you never know what they might really have been up to. ( I assure you I wasn't lookin for dope)

As for undercover art cars.....surely you could spot a govt art car, I can only imagine what the unimaginative LE would come up with, and it would have to be low bid as well....LOL. Of course I would never suggest you tag anybodies car for any reason.

Unfortunately I will not be able to read or reply to posts for a while as I am being deployed to New Orleans for the Katrina relief effort.

Hope to be back soon!

ubu
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Post by ubu » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:52 am

Welcome again brlover. Stay safe and be well.

You do what you have to do, and what your job calls for. I can't expect our interests to always be in concord, nor do I need or want you to be nice to me.
If in some exceptional case you or another LEO need to enter my camp or domicile, that is an action that you take. I'm not going to interfere, not knowingly. Perhaps, as you say, you have a very good reason to invade my domicile in the pursuit of a suspected law breaker.

I will nonetheless speak up for my right to privacy either here at my home or at burning man. I will also monitor and observe your actions while you are in my domicile and in my camp or if you are observing my camp.

I know the stakes of the game somewhat. I know there is a fine line between observing and interfering. There are, in fact, several individuals (not at bm) who are being charged with "conspiracy to interfere with a federal officer" which has a maximum sentence of 6 years. I will confer further with my lawyer to help me delineate that line better for myself.

I wish you the best of luck and happy hunting. Our interests may not coincide, but I can respect you as someone who is doing a job as well as they can. I assume that you wear a fairly well pressed uniform.

desertswine
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Location: san francisco,ca

citations/leo's

Post by desertswine » Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:15 am

fellow e-playans,well everyone seems to have an opinion about LEO's,so here we go.They do have a job to preform,BRC is just like any other city,laws must be enforced,but remember this we are located on Federal property.During burningman Nevada Highway Patrol has instructions for Zero Tolerance,so u speed=ticket,BLM=No sense of humor=cite,Pershing SO and Washoe Co.SO=DEPENDS ON DEPUTY and your attitude.I understand everyone's point of view,I even sympathize with certain events,but as long as were on ther land,we have to play by there rules.Lothos

desertswine
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Location: san francisco,ca

undercover vehicles

Post by desertswine » Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:19 am

Dustdevil,if it's an unmarked vehicle,no insignia or markings are required,they may have excempt plates or not.They are not required to have any stickers or license on the cars/vehicles,law enforcement,ems vehicles,fire department vehicles are excempt.Lothos

Dustdevil
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Camp Name: Brain Freeze / Got Stickers
Location: West Oakland
Contact:

Post by Dustdevil » Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:38 am

When I refered to DMV stickers, I am talking about Dept of Mutant Vehicles. All mutant vehicles we inspect at the DMV carry a day and/or night lic sticker. If they have flame effects the drivers has a laminant stating that we inspected the flame effects device. I am sorry I didn't make myself clear, but I was refering only to BRC issued stickers. Without the sticker the vehicle will get stopped on the Playa. In the time I spent in DMV I never saw any stickers issued to LEO's. Also, the stickers were put away so it is unlikely they would "help themselves" to the stickers. Therefore, they either didn't have stickers or they had stickers issued by the Org at some time prior to the event. I was just wondering if anyone having contact with the undercover vehicles had noticed it they carried a BRC day or night sticker.
Those who think they can and those who think they can't are both right.

Ingram
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Beating BLM Citation Strategy

Post by Ingram » Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:39 pm

According to one who knows, one method that has
succeeded in the past, is to hire a good Reno lawyer, and
argue "entrapment" specifically..possibly even mentioning
to the US Attorney that you will pursue that defense in the
case..that there would not have been a crime committed,
if there was no enticement by officers..

However, all cases are different, so consult an attorney
before you adopt this defense..

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Chai Guy
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Post by Chai Guy » Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:46 am

I have no problem with police presence at BM. But I have a big problem with undercover officers in costume soliciting drugs, and basically entraping burners. THis needs to be publicized and people need to know not to give/trade/exchange/offer/sell any drugs with anyone at burningman that they don't know personally outside of burningman b/c even that cute little girl could be a narc.
alx
Some People might say that it has been fairly well publicized.

Law Enforcement at Burning Man:
http://www.burningman.com/preparation/e ... ement.html

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... c&start=30

Chai Guy
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 1273

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:05 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A couple of things about Law Enforcement on the Playa:

1. They are there and they are for real. After the event people will come back on the eplaya and decry the fact that they got a ticket or went to jail. These things have real world consequences and you might want to consider what those are and how they might affect you before taking any actions that may result in you being fined or arrested.

2. You will not be able to spot undercover LEO, they have been going to the event longer, have better costumes and better art cars than you.

3. Even telling someone where to buy drugs can get you a conspiracy to traffic in narcotics charge.

4. You are still more likely to go to jail by attending "Hot August Nights" in Reno.
http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/20 ... /77643.php

5. It's perfectly legal for the police to lie to you. Especially in a Sting Operation. In fact, in some cases it's legal for an undercover officer to partake in consuming illegal narcotics.

http://www.erowid.org/freedom/police/police_info6.shtml
http://www.criminalattorney.com/pages/f ... apment.htm

Quote:
The first of these beliefs is that a person preparing to sell drugs or solicit a prostitute can simply ask the agent whether or not he or she is an agent of the authorities. In this myth, if an undercover agent denies his association with police, his actions constitute entrapment. No part of this is true. If it were, undercover operations would be impossible because they could be easily and automatically defused. Police agents are allowed, if not encouraged, to lie. In fact, the lie and the deception are at the very heart of the sting. Without them, there would be no undercover operation.

Aze
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2006 Pot Bust

Post by Aze » Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:33 pm

Looks like I'm the first one to post on this thread about 2006. I'll share the story of my $525 pot citation. It's a pretty detailed writeup but if you have never gone through the interrogation/search process it might be of interest. It was eye opening to me how sneaky they were.

I was getting a couple of, well, cigarettes from a tupperware container in the hatch area of my car into a cigarette pack. I had my car in camp on an internal camp road that was very quiet and dark, so I felt like I had privacy. Just as I was putting the cigarettes in my pocket and closing the opaque tupperware container, I am startled to find a uniformed BLM officer, seemingly out of nowhere, looking over my shoulder into the car. He says "What have you got there?". I say "just my cigarettes". He points to the tupperware container and asks what's that. In my startled state I couldn't think of anything better to say than "my stuff".

He points to my tent and camp and asks is this your camp, and I stupidly again say yes. He asks are those drugs in the Tupperware container, and I say "I am not answering your questions". He picks up the tupperware container for a second, without opening it, then sets it down where it was. While he was reaching in there I was trying to close the hatch but his head was sticking in preventing me from closing it... I think I lightly tapped him on the head with the hatch and he said please don't hit me on the head with the hatch door. That was at least a bit amusing. He pulled his head out and I closed the hatch, locked the car. The officer asked again in a menacing voice are those drugs yes or no. He says it's better for me to cooperate than to have them bring in canines to search. I again say I'm not answering your questions. He noticed the helium tanks I had inside for a balloon art project, and asked again menacingly whether they were nitrous. I said no, just helium.

I ask if I'm free to leave, and he says yes. All of a sudden he gets real friendly like, and says hey, I was just coming by to ask you where I am, are those signs over there the correct location.

I get on my bike and ride away.

I later heard from my campmates that in the 2 hours I was away from camp, they searched the exterior of my tent and car with canines, but didn't open anything up.

After considering my options I figured the officers would most likely have left figuring I'm not worth the trouble, but when I rode back two hours later they were still in a white truck there next to my camp. I figured they must be calling in for a warrant from a judge.

I rode back and sat down in a chair outside my tent and just mellowed out, drinking some water. A minute later a ranger came over and asked a few seemingly innocuous questions to which I answered "I'm not answering your questions". They got back into their truck and probably called to ask "what should we do".

I figured it would be best if I had my drivers license on me, so I went into my tent and looked for it. After a while I realized I had left it in my wallet in the car near the tupperware container. Just as I was coming out of the tent, another white truck pulled up, and the officer came out and asked me for my identification. I unlocked the car, reached in, got my wallet out, and locked the car back up (mightily quickly :-)

He told me he wanted to search the car, and I said no. I said I do not consent to a search of this vehicle. He said "you have to". I probably should have asked if I was free to leave, and if not why not, but that didn't cross my mind at the time. He asked for the keys and I handed them to him.

They searched the vehicle and found a small personal quantity of marijuana. While they are searching the car a lady officer leads me about 40 feet away and tries to make small talk conversation with me. She would say things like "This is very interesting to me seeing all this art. Have you seen any good art?" and I would consistently say I'm not answering questions, although every once and a while I'd just out of habit respond to one of her dumb questions like "yeah I saw some good art". I think she was just trying to get me used to talking with officers rather than being silent.

After a while BLM officer/ranger Mike Marquart, who had been searching the vehicle, comes up to me and starts being all friendly. Hey, I just want to let you know what's going on here and are there any questions you have. I ask what the ranger was doing in the area when he originally came upon me.

He said they caught the guy in camp next to me with some shrooms in a big bag and more in small bags and thought he was dividing them up for sale, so they arrested him. As all this was happening, they were searching his possessions, and actually hauling away all his stuff for impound.

I asked why they delayed searching my car until I had arrived, why they didn't search it right away if the canines had indicated a "hit", and he said basically they were just lazy and didn't want to have to call in a locksmith to drive in, or break the window and then have to guard my car. So they wanted to wait until I had the keys.

Ranger Mike started talking about how he works out in Southern California and how things are much different there, how pot is less of a big deal than in Nevada. He said over there it's just a ticket, and if they have a medical marijuana card it's not a big deal.

I have a valid OCBC medical marijuana card, so I asked him if it would help my situation if I had a medical marijuana card. He said something to the effect of it might, although because of the location they don't recognize MM recommendations. I told him that I had one, and that I could get it out of my car. I did so. I produced it, and the officers seemed to agree that it was valid (although not recognized).

While they were searching, they had brought in canines again, who had hit on my bike bag (knocked my bike over in fact). Mike asks me if there is anything in my bike bag and I say I'm not answering questions. They search and search but don't find anything. Eventually I tell Mike "You're not going to find anything in there". He stops them from searching.

Then they focus on my tent, and ask if there's anything inside they should know about. I say "I'm not answering questions", but nod my head side to side no. He doesn't seem convinced, he keeps asking what could be inside, perhaps something with residue, like a pipe, or something that contained marijana previously. He tells me if I can produce that item they won't have to search the tent.

Eventually I tell him I'll show him something of interest from the tent. I go into the tent, and come back out with an empty cigarette pack, closing the tent behind me. They all look at it and say "there's nothing in here" and I say "Yes". He again asks for anything having residue on it in the tent, and I say "I am not answering questions". He ask for the pipe, assuming I have one in the tent, and I say there is no pipe. He seems to believe me, and the searching stops, without the tent having been searched.

Throughout this search process the officers were asking me innocent sounding questions which could actually have consequences, like what do you do for a living (I'm self employed so didn't want them to get the idea I was a dealer), is there anyone else camping with you, why are there two car stereos in the car. I would answer "I'm not answering questions" and the officers would say something like "Oh, I'm just asking because I'm curious", or "We're just talking here", trying to make me feel like it was off the record even though it of course isn't.

Another thing to note is that over the past couple days I had seen people riding down this road in a golf cart at night, and slowing down to take a look near my camp. When I looked up at them they would speed up and scurry off. It's now clear that those must have been officers, and perhaps they were staking the place out because of the shrooms next door. In retrospect, only officials can drive undecorated golf carts, so I should have known they were keeping an eye on things.


The officers huddle together and decide what they are going to do, and eventually write me a citation. It has a fine of $500 plus $25 fee for a total of $525. The citing officer says that if I pay it within 21 days, nothing will go on the state records for CA or NV, although it will go into the federal records that I received the citation. He says it is a class A misdemeanor, as are all BLM citations, and that if an law enforcement officer asks if I have any convictions, I could say no because paying the ticket is not considered a conviction, just a "no contest" plea. But of course if I challenge it and go to court the fee could be larger and I could get jail time and would have a conviction if I lost.

In retrospect, the reason the officers were still present after two hours was probably due to the shroom activity, not me, but I didn't know that at the time. Had I known that, I probably would not have come back to camp all night, and my car might never have been searched. I have heard from a lawyer though that they sometimes will take note of suspicious vehicles and pull them over after they leave the event, where the Nevada laws are tougher than the BLM laws, so I would of course have made sure there was nothing incriminating in my vehicle as soon as possible.


I'm pretty sure that when the original officer picked up the tupperware container and then set it down, that was an illegal search. All he had for cause at the time was me being startled and not answering questions, which is a reasonable response for someone who has had an officer sneak up on them from behind. But whether that would be enough to get my case dismissed is unclear... I'll probably need to consult a lawyer.

What I want to know more about is exactly how this would appear on my record and who would have access to it, if I were to pay the fine within 21 days. For instance someone I know who handles adoptions says that they have access to the internal federal criminal records... would this show up there? And of course could a job application background search make it turn up?

My guess is that if I were to fight this it would get dismissed... the officers would have to show up in court to fight it, and at least two of the officers mentioned they were from Southern California... I doubt that they would be able to fly up to the Nevada area for the court date just for a pot possession case. But I suppose it's possible that they could group multiple cases at the same time and get them all handled simultaneously, so it's possible they could show up.

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julie_c
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Post by julie_c » Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:09 pm

Just like the "real world"...if a total stranger comes up and asks for drugs to buy or sell (I found after attending 4 years that people who like em usually bring their own )..do like Nancy says..."Just say No"...potential trouble avoided...move on...enjoy your burn...how simple is that?? Now if you like to go around and brag to total strangers...someone you just met 15 minutes ago...how much "shrooms you have...or how much pot you have...well, it's hard to feel sorry for you. I never heard that once you enter Black Rock City, it would be OK to throw all your common sense to the wind, so to speak.

Mr. Mellow
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This Year...

Post by Mr. Mellow » Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:33 pm

Well, last year I praised the BLM Ranger's tolerance and professionalism. In 2006, I'm not so happy. Citing people for posession at Burning Man must be like shooting fish in a barrel for the LEO's, the BLM Rangers don't need to be assholes about it.

I saw a bust on a 70ish freak where a BLM Ranger used unecessary aggression, lack of courtesy, and lack of professionalism when he approached to bust the guy, but couldn't find the pipe he saw the old guy smoking from. After the Ranger reached for his gun, saying "This playa is ours, we're in charge here...where's the pipe? I'll have this whole camp searched if I need to!" the old freak calmly volunteered that the pipe was his and was sitting on the bar in front of the Ranger in plain sight.

In any case, at least one BLM Ranger certainly did his best that day to destroy the goodwill the LEO's had built among the senior burners. I don't have an issue with them enforcing the laws, but this BLM Ranger seemed like a thug with a tin badge and a gun, and that really scares me.

Mr. Mellow
Mr. Mellow is a professional janitor. He knows more about porta-potties than you do.

helitack
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Location: A secret, undisclosed location in TexMexistan...

Post by helitack » Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:53 pm

....dammit....good news is ya still have 18 or so days to pay up...remember, can't/shouldn't dance if you can't/won't pay the fiddler...

Blackrock Lover
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Post by Blackrock Lover » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:31 am

.

ubu
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Location: aethernity

Post by ubu » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:43 am

Here we are again, brlover. Good to know you are safe.

BLM seemed to be fascinated with the Hare Krishna's this year, taking pictures of them all along the esplenade during the day. probably looking for patterns. determining just exactly what they were giving away. probably also taking pictures of other things out there. BLM is probably using software that some participant at BM wrote to do the work of organizing and analyzing all the photos. Smile, you are on candid camera.

We were vigilant this year as always, gently letting BLM know that ours was a private space or gently observing the LEOs in action.

Every young person out in the open was notified to put their "stuff" away if I saw anything that even looked suspicious. and warned.

I did have one funny face down in which I observed the actions of an LEO. I know he wanted to detain and search me, but when he saw that I was naked except for sandals and skivvies, he though better of it. Funny meeting you here in this little spot of desert.

There is plenty of counter observation by participants now, so the neighborhood copwatch program has kind of taken off. The LEOs feel surveilled themselves. All eyes are on them. It helps to have bright lights at night time. All vehicles are identified at night time if they come within purview.

This game will end soon enough when Burning Man moves off of Federal Land. BLM will lose its cash cow and laboratory.
ta epi ta

dragonfly Jafe
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Location: the Oregon Trail

Post by dragonfly Jafe » Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:58 pm

I saw a BLM suburban driving slowing along the Esplanade (wednesday I think) using a video camera to film everything from the road. They appeared to zoom in on tents, structures, rides, etc as they went. I happened to be undressing at the time in my tent, with a screen between us, but felt a little violated none-the-less (they appeared to stop and zoom in on me in my tent).

I think in the future I wiill have a bright light, maybe IR, pointed out from my tent area so I can get a little PRIVACY. Hope the pervert cops enjoy their video, since I had nothing they could act on, they obviously were just trolling.

If only everyone could leave the drugs at home for one year. Let them try to justify their insane expenditure of resources then!
Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
Arthur Schopenhauer

ubu
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Post by ubu » Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:36 pm

dragonfly Jafe wrote:I saw a BLM suburban driving slowing along the Esplanade (wednesday I think) using a video camera to film everything from the road. They appeared to zoom in on tents, structures, rides, etc as they went. I happened to be undressing at the time in my tent, with a screen between us, but felt a little violated none-the-less (they appeared to stop and zoom in on me in my tent).

I think in the future I wiill have a bright light, maybe IR, pointed out from my tent area so I can get a little PRIVACY. Hope the pervert cops enjoy their video.
Why do you think they come back to BRC every year?
One cop had the temerity to say to me, "All love", after he thought better of busting a nearly naked guy on a bike. With lovers like those guys..... Poor fool thought of me as naive enough to buy his "love" and his sarcasm. Poor fool needs to read some more political philosophy. Go consult your Leo Strauss, son. Check your Hobbes before entry.


Below is a link to some lovers and defenders of the body politic against the institutional assault on freedom perpetrated by the entrusted security officers of our lovely poor little nation state. They will inform you that much of the surveillance toys given to and tested by the cops are indeed just used to check out the chicks. sad but true.
Jon Adams is weeping.

Hey brlover, on this issue alone, we are adversaries. I'm ok with that. we don't have to like each other. I acknowledge you. I think you violate my privacy. I will gently remind you of that fact until we move this little show off of Federal land.

http://www.tacticalmagic.org/CTM/projec ... s/TICU.htm
ta epi ta

Mr. Mellow
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Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 10:18 pm
Location: Moscow, ID

Post by Mr. Mellow » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:53 pm

dragonfly Jafe wrote:If only everyone could leave the drugs at home for one year. Let them try to justify their insane expenditure of resources then!
I know, after two busts in our camp we were descended upon by clean cut tourist looking types with cameras, which was very odd for opening day and wasn't repeated throughout the burn. I am proud to say I did my Burn clean and sober and I resent that I probably have ended up in somebody's photo file because of guilt by association.

First they tell us we need to have a war on drugs to stop the stoners, then they tell us the gays who are in love and want to get married are destroying our families and that its a war for our family values.

How long before you are a person of interest?
How long before they decide to make war on your lifestyle?
How long before we all become an enemy of the state?

Forgive me, but Mr. Mellow is feeling paranoid.
Mr. Mellow is a professional janitor. He knows more about porta-potties than you do.

Blackrock Lover
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 1:27 am

Let's be friends :)

Post by Blackrock Lover » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:31 pm

Dearest Ubu,

I don't know that we need be advesaries. What was described in the previous post is not a violation of anyone's privacy. A car being driven down the road in an open area video taping whatever can be seen is simply not a violation of privacy. No more than if I drove down your street and videotaped as I went. Now, what could that video be used for? Most likely it was BLM PR types as such a video would be near useless for LE purposes. I mean if you have the officers right there observing why do you need a tape, and who has the time to go back to camp and sift through the video in hopes of finding something and then coming back to the same area and most likely finding it gone. It's just not good time management if nothing else. And certainly doing it in a fashion that is obvious would be poor tactics. And was this even a BLM vehicle?

In a recent LE refresher our instructor used the term "right to be, right to see" basically if a person has a right to be where they are they have the right to see whatever is around them. Pretty simple. As the previous poster noted there was a screen between them and the camera. This person had taken steps to privatize their space and they worked as intended. If more privacy had been wanted a bigger screen or closed door would have been used.

Remember what you expose to the public is not private :)

Now just so you check you have a private post waiting ;)

helitack
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Burning Since: 2004
Location: A secret, undisclosed location in TexMexistan...

Post by helitack » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:36 pm

ubu wrote:Why do you think they come back to BRC every year?
Because it is their job.

Blackrock Lover
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 1:27 am

Post by Blackrock Lover » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:37 pm

oops sorry you dont have a pm waiting.......

I can't get it to work :(

It says you don't exist :shock:

Mr. Mellow
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 10:18 pm
Location: Moscow, ID

Post by Mr. Mellow » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:56 pm

BR, a lot of us really value our relationship with LE, especially in keeping the dealers off the Playa. The no commerce rule goes for everybody as far as I'm concerned. Can you please comment on whether the LEO's value the relationship as well and have noticed that certain individuals in the BLM really fucking creeped us out this year?
Mr. Mellow is a professional janitor. He knows more about porta-potties than you do.

Blackrock Lover
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 1:27 am

Post by Blackrock Lover » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:43 pm

Well, LEOs are like everyone else...... a varied lot. I know to most it seems they are stamped out of the same mold but that really isn't the case. Now the training is the same so some reactions will be the same but all have a different personality. It is just like burners. I don't judge all burners by the one that assaulted a ranger this year requiring stitches. Yes, BRC can be a place of violence and I in the past have had to deal with violent individuals there. But, back to the question....do they value a relationship with the burners? Well, some do and some don't. Just as the burners have varied attitudes toward the LEOs. I like to think in my rose colored world that most have a positive view of each other....however, I suspect that most burners have a negative attitude toward LE and many LE have a negative attitude toward the burners...:(

As to being creeped out.....I don't know how to respond to that. What was creeping people out? I do know that the officers assigned to the event this year were a different lot than in years past due to scheduling concerns and many had not worked the event before. And let's face it. You probably want LEOs that want to be there vs. those that just get assigned.

Hope that helps, but don't know if it did LOL. Ask again and I will try harder.

Mr. Mellow
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 10:18 pm
Location: Moscow, ID

Post by Mr. Mellow » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:14 pm

:) Fair enough, what was creeping us out was watching a BLM Ranger in our camp go for his gun on an non-confrontational posession bust and blurting out it was "our playa, we're in charge here." The new mix does explain a few things. Thank You...and yes we have far more positive experiences with the LEO's over the past six years than any negative ones. We were wondering what happened to the friendly ones that ask us about our burn, chat with us about what's going on in the neighborhood, and give us temporary BLM tattoos. I always thought that was a cute touch.
Mr. Mellow is a professional janitor. He knows more about porta-potties than you do.

Blackrock Lover
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 1:27 am

Post by Blackrock Lover » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:23 am

Well, I simply can't explain that situation. In the situation you describe those actions and words are completely out of line! Possibly there was some other issue or it was just a jerk ranger. I personally know of one that had worked the event in past years that I thought was a complete jerk toward people and could only deal with them in a condescending way. Fortunately he no longer works in law enforcement as he was an embarassment! I know there were some good ones out there and they had tattoos!

Next year the scheduling system should be back to normal and hopefully that will alleviate some of the issues that have been raised by having rangers there that want to be there and are experienced.

Kinetic IV
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Location: Kyiv, Ukraine as of 10/27/06

Post by Kinetic IV » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:27 am

Going off on a slight tangent I wish we had more officers there like the K9 unit from the Pershing County Sheriff's Department that went through the 3:00 keyhole and stopped in front of the MASH camp after the burn. All they did was put glowsticks on the wheels, glowsticks on the lightbar, they accepted glowsticks from people that saw what they were doing, and even the dog had a glowstick on, hanging from it's collar! They also let a few people pet the dog when they rolled down the back window. The interactions with people from that group of LEO's left quite an impression, and I'll be honest when they rolled down the window and I saw the officers with glow necklaces on I about freaked out. They got into it. And that's downright cool.

Compare that approach to the BLM ranger one...I wonder which one will build the best relationship with BRC residents?
K-IV
~~~~
Thank you for over 7 years of eplaya memories. I have asked Emily Sparkle to delete my account and I am gone. Goodbye and Goodluck to all of you! I will miss you!

dragonfly Jafe
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Re: Let's be friends :)

Post by dragonfly Jafe » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:21 am

Blackrock Lover wrote: "right to be, right to see" basically if a person has a right to be where they are they have the right to see whatever is around them.
A shame this doesn't work both ways. I have fantasied for years of following LEO's around with a video camera and filming every stop/arrest/undercover officer I see, then offering the film for the defendent. Unfortunately, the LEO's will not allow this. Why?

And if I was walking around a neighborhood on a public street, videoing someone's house, zooming in on a bathroom window where a woman was taking a shower (where a shade only partially covered the window), what would the LEO's do to me when someone called them?

This countries LEO's are going out of control, and I fear them so much now I will not talk to them under any circumstances except to confirm my identity, even though I am law abiding. The terrorists have gained the most valuable allies they ever could - our own LEO's (who are destroying this country more than any bomb ever could). RIP the land of the free, it was a noble experiment, now failed.
Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
Arthur Schopenhauer

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